Nerf parts of the caster's current advantages, then people can see that martials do already get some pretty nice things and the nicer things we give them won't have to tear apart the system.
What nice things? The Barbarian is the only one that gets nice things that does not depend on magic (Bloodrager gets spells... paladin has nice magical abilities, ranger is deadly because of the Instant Enemy spell...). Fighters get... the ability to hit things better?
Combat Maneuvers are gimped hard for PCs against anything other than humanoids, moving pretty much murders any ability for the Martial to do damage withouth Pummeling Strike or being a Barbarian, and they are just horridly capped at their skills... You have a human who is literally stronger than a Elephant and can wrestle a rhino buck naked but some how is barely able to jump 10 ft straight up... Hacking through a wall is still tough for martials... they are still poor at climbing (vs a spider climb spell)... Oh and they TAKE AWAY any cool ability that martials had that gave them options other than "Hit it with a stick" (I am looking at you Crane Wing)
What would be cool is if the Martial could scale walls like Spawn or The Gargoyles as an ability, or the ability to straight punch through a wall, or obliterate a castle door with his sword... Or if he could burrow through the ground, or create localized tremors with his meteor hammer or war hammer. To make a list of some cool abilities:
Burrow Speed
Localized Earthquake
Super High Jumps
Ability to punch through walls or slice down doors
Ability to replicate Greater Bladed Dash (I mean, how is it that A BARD gets the cool ability to dash through enemies and slice everything in his way but A DEDICATED FIGHTER cannot???)
Ability to create a literal untouchable wall of a character (say feats that combine with Shields to grant varying amounts of DR X/- so long as they are wielding a shield, with tower shields providing the largest buff)
Crane Wing (pre-errata)
Maybe give characters of exceptional dex the ability to under the effects of blur so long as they move (and again, allowing martials to move AND attack more than once in a round)
and I mean, there are so many cool things you can do but Martials are just shackled to "realism" and anything remotely cool immediately gets disparaged as "too wuxia" or "too weeaboo" or something stupid (like moving so fast you literaly blur and make it harder to track your movements)
and I mean, there are so many cool things you can do but Martials are just shackled to "realism" and anything remotely cool immediately gets disparaged as "too wuxia" or "too weeaboo" or something stupid (like moving so fast you literaly blur and make it harder to track your movements)
I think the martials get plenty of cool things to do but clearly my expectations are different from yours. I want my fantasy games to contrast with the superhero games I play, which cover what you are describing quite well. I want them to be grounded in a certain degree of realism compared to superhero games.
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and I mean, there are so many cool things you can do but Martials are just shackled to "realism" and anything remotely cool immediately gets disparaged as "too wuxia" or "too weeaboo" or something stupid (like moving so fast you literaly blur and make it harder to track your movements)I think the martials get plenty of cool things to do but clearly my expectations are different from yours. I want my fantasy games to contrast with the superhero games I play, which cover what you are describing quite well. I want them to be grounded in a certain degree of realism compared to superhero games.
Then play E6. E6 is the simple way to keep them grounded in realism and stuff...
Grounding a high level martial to realism IS THE VERY PROBLEM WITH THEM RIGHT NOW.
Not to be accusatory but the very problem with martials is the very thought that they need to be grounded in realism. By grounding them to realism by default just hurts those of us who WANT to play the cool Heroes of legend. You can always choose NOT to use the super powers in a system like that, as it stands we can't CHOOSE to play a super powered game without creating a whole host of house rules and custom feats and such.
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and I mean, there are so many cool things you can do but Martials are just shackled to "realism" and anything remotely cool immediately gets disparaged as "too wuxia" or "too weeaboo" or something stupid (like moving so fast you literaly blur and make it harder to track your movements)I think the martials get plenty of cool things to do but clearly my expectations are different from yours. I want my fantasy games to contrast with the superhero games I play, which cover what you are describing quite well. I want them to be grounded in a certain degree of realism compared to superhero games.Then play E6. E6 is the simple way to keep them grounded in realism and stuff...
Grounding a high level martial to realism IS THE VERY PROBLEM WITH THEM RIGHT NOW.
Not to be accusatory but the very problem with martials is the very thought that they need to be grounded in realism. By grounding them to realism by default just hurts those of us who WANT to play the cool Heroes of legend. You can always choose NOT to use the super powers in a system like that, as it stands we can't CHOOSE to play a super powered game without creating a whole host of house rules and custom feats and such.
Completely agree.
What is "realistic" for a 10th level Fighter is completely unrealistic for anyone in our world to perform. Assuming that our absolute best people are level 5, then a 10th level Fighter is literally twice as capable. If our 5th level people can move fast, 10th level Fighter can move so fast that they can't be seen. If our 5th level people take bullet shots and keep going, a 10th level Fighter can soak even more punishment and walk it off.
A 10th level Fighter is not in terms of our world "realistic" by definition. So don't ask them to be realistic by those terms.
It's like no one can read. Even the title says, fix the system so martials get nice things. Getting nice things doesn't mean taking away from others. I agree that to get martials near casters at high levels they have to be able to do fairly extraordinary things, but that's fine.
Effective weapon throwing; the ability to attack many enemies at once; a lot more in the way of skills; the ability to do by sheer fortitude many of the things casters do with spells.
Also I don't know what game you guys are playing, but am in a well run game at 12 right now and the martials are absolutely necessary parts of the game. In fact, the casters only do damage when they want to take it easy for the remainder of combats. Avoid all mechanics, have good story and role play, condense and scale feats as suggested and it'll be even better. Having long and intense days of battle occassionally helps. Casters having buffs helps everyone; if you want to go on an adventure under the sea there are buffs for the whole party.
But most importantly this is a lesson in reading, if a thread specifically asks for ideas on making martials get nice things, coming in and yelling, "Nerf the casters!" is as counterproductive as it is annoying.
I've mentioned this(indirectly), in this thread and others, but the disparity isn't in how well combat works out, but the fact a wizard can teleport miles away in an instant a martial is forced to walk. Wizards have so many ways to fix problems while martials only have one or two, and they usually involve beating something to death.
fighters can murder just about anything, but can they use charm person on the enemy commander and avoid a conflict altogether?
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and I mean, there are so many cool things you can do but Martials are just shackled to "realism" and anything remotely cool immediately gets disparaged as "too wuxia" or "too weeaboo" or something stupid (like moving so fast you literaly blur and make it harder to track your movements)I think the martials get plenty of cool things to do but clearly my expectations are different from yours. I want my fantasy games to contrast with the superhero games I play, which cover what you are describing quite well. I want them to be grounded in a certain degree of realism compared to superhero games.
then you shouldn't have gone past level 5
I thought of an interesting idea
certain combat feats should have some additional ability not exactly pertaining to combat directly, something that could do extraordinary things at a certain level.
and I mean, there are so many cool things you can do but Martials are just shackled to "realism" and anything remotely cool immediately gets disparaged as "too wuxia" or "too weeaboo" or something stupid (like moving so fast you literaly blur and make it harder to track your movements)I think the martials get plenty of cool things to do but clearly my expectations are different from yours. I want my fantasy games to contrast with the superhero games I play, which cover what you are describing quite well. I want them to be grounded in a certain degree of realism compared to superhero games.Then play E6. E6 is the simple way to keep them grounded in realism and stuff...
Grounding a high level martial to realism IS THE VERY PROBLEM WITH THEM RIGHT NOW.
Not to be accusatory but the very problem with martials is the very thought that they need to be grounded in realism. By grounding them to realism by default just hurts those of us who WANT to play the cool Heroes of legend. You can always choose NOT to use the super powers in a system like that, as it stands we can't CHOOSE to play a super powered game without creating a whole host of house rules and custom feats and such.
Completely agree.
What is "realistic" for a 10th level Fighter is completely unrealistic for anyone in our world to perform. Assuming that our absolute best people are level 5, then a 10th level Fighter is literally twice as capable. If our 5th level people can move fast, 10th level Fighter can move so fast that they can't be seen. If our 5th level people take bullet shots and keep going, a 10th level Fighter can soak even more punishment and walk it off.
A 10th level Fighter is not in terms of our world "realistic" by definition. So don't ask them to be realistic by those terms.
Oh in the other thread I mentioned that one thing that would go a long way to help martials (and mainly fighters) is to make many of the feat chains simply scaling feats. So for instance, instead of taking "Improved Grapple" then "Greater Grapple" you could simply take a "Grapple Training" feat that gives you the benefits of each as your BAB gets higher. That would allow fighters in particulair to be pretty awesome because instead of being "I am dude with a greatsword and power attack" you become "Dude with a Great Sword and Power attack with the option to Reposition, Grapple, Trip, Disarm, Dirty Fight, and shoot arrows to adapt to my situation and adjust accordingly since I dedicate my life to fighting" NOW THAT is cool...
I HATE HOW FIGHTERS ARE PUNISHED FOR HAVING LOTS OF FEATS. Why do I think that? Well the main selling point of the fighter is his stupid wall of feats (Play a Human Fighter for even more lulz). The problem is, it is almost like the designed teh feats with the fact that the fighter has A LOT OF FEATS in mind because of all the stupid pre-reqs and chains. This pretty much negates the very benefit of the fighter in the first place since he NEEDS all those feats just to cover stupid feat tax pre-reqs just to do whatever it is he wanted to do in the first place...
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Not to be accusatory but the very problem with martials is the very thought that they need to be grounded in realism. By grounding them to realism by default just hurts those of us who WANT to play the cool Heroes of legend. You can always choose NOT to use the super powers in a system like that, as it stands we can't CHOOSE to play a super powered game without creating a whole host of house rules and custom feats and such.
E6? Why would I play E6 when the broader range of PF levels works just fine for me? I'm not having significant problems with the difference between casters and martials when I run PF, so why should I pare the game down?
I think that the way you prefer your martial characters you may have chosen to play the wrong game system. If you wanted to play your interpretation of "Heroes of Legend", why did you pick a D&D variant rather than Mutants and Masterminds or Champions, both of which would seem to fit your needs, at least for the martial characters, better than Pathfinder?
I understand a desire to mold the game into a form you would prefer. We all do it to some degree, and as GMs we are expected to, but there comes a point when you have to realize the game as it is won't fit your particular ambitions and would require more work than investing in a new system. I wouldn't mind seeing some more goodies go the martial character's way (like better scaling feats), but I like the majority of the PF system as it is - Hell, I've been enthusiastically playing some variation of it for the last 34 years as my main fantasy RPG.
I posted this in another thread, but change the structure of feats. Seriously, a martial needs to get 3 feats to finally get really good at something. Problem is, a martial then becomes niche and only good at one or two things. Here is how I'd fix it:
1.) Make feats scale. Instead of getting 3-4 feats to become a master tripper, you select a feat which scales with your BAB which allows you to become a master tripper with only 1 feat. This would free up so many feats and keep the scaling on par with the original intended time you would get it.
2.) Give martials exotic and martial weapon feats for free. It's a huge feat to waste if your DM won't let you get it and you gotta waste a feat for it.
3.) More skill points. This one is debatable, but some martial need more skill points imo. They shouldn't become skill monkeys, but all martials should at least have 4 + relevant attribute. There is nothing more frustrating then being a fighter and EVERY other player out skills the s%~* out of you. I did a game as this once, I dumped everything into craft weapons and made cool s~*~ and that was the extent of what I could do.
Not to be accusatory but the very problem with martials is the very thought that they need to be grounded in realism. By grounding them to realism by default just hurts those of us who WANT to play the cool Heroes of legend. You can always choose NOT to use the super powers in a system like that, as it stands we can't CHOOSE to play a super powered game without creating a whole host of house rules and custom feats and such.E6? Why would I play E6 when the broader range of PF levels works just fine for me? I'm not having significant problems with the difference between casters and martials when I run PF, so why should I pare the game down?
I think that the way you prefer your martial characters you may have chosen to play the wrong game system. If you wanted to play your interpretation of "Heroes of Legend", why did you pick a D&D variant rather than Mutants and Masterminds or Champions, both of which would seem to fit your needs, at least for the martial characters, better than Pathfinder?
I understand a desire to mold the game into a form you would prefer. We all do it to some degree, and as GMs we are expected to, but there comes a point when you have to realize the game as it is won't fit your particular ambitions and would require more work than investing in a new system. I wouldn't mind seeing some more goodies go the martial character's way (like better scaling feats), but I like the majority of the PF system as it is - Hell, I've been enthusiastically playing some variation of it for the last 34 years as my main fantasy RPG.
Well considering how often this thread tends to pop up, I believe you sir, are the minority...
Not to be accusatory but the very problem with martials is the very thought that they need to be grounded in realism. By grounding them to realism by default just hurts those of us who WANT to play the cool Heroes of legend. You can always choose NOT to use the super powers in a system like that, as it stands we can't CHOOSE to play a super powered game without creating a whole host of house rules and custom feats and such.E6? Why would I play E6 when the broader range of PF levels works just fine for me? I'm not having significant problems with the difference between casters and martials when I run PF, so why should I pare the game down?
I think that the way you prefer your martial characters you may have chosen to play the wrong game system. If you wanted to play your interpretation of "Heroes of Legend", why did you pick a D&D variant rather than Mutants and Masterminds or Champions, both of which would seem to fit your needs, at least for the martial characters, better than Pathfinder?
I think most of us are either not playing completely mundane characters, instead opting for Barbarians, Paladins, Rangers... etc. who are not chained to a level 5 reality for 20 levels. Or we're using Tome of Battle/Path of War.
None of that addresses the issue though. Even if you don't see it in your games, the disparity at level 9+ between martials and casters is crippling to the game as a whole. It is likely the reason you are not having issues is due to your playstyle or houserules, but none of that again changes the underlying issues within the system. Which is what we are discussin.
Well considering how often this thread tends to pop up
The balance of classes in 3.5 actually inspired a variant called The Tomes. It's by Franktrollman and K. Has a lot of interesting rules and classes.
then you shouldn't have gone past level 5
Yeah, people keep bringing up this old chestnut, which suggests to me that martial characters actually do get to do some pretty nice things as they level up after all.
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Yeah, people keep bringing up this old chestnut, which suggests to me that martial characters actually do get to do some pretty nice things as they level up after all.
then you shouldn't have gone past level 5
They really don't.
The difference between a level 1 Fighter and a level 20 Fighter who have to move and attack with a sword is purely the numbers. Both will be forced to move and make one attack.
Meanwhile the Wizard goes from "Summon a badger" to "Make clones of Demon Lords while relaxing on your private time while Astral Projecting to do anything with virtually guaranteed safety while safe in the knowledge that should they die they'll just wake up in one of their clones".
See the difference?
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Well considering how often this thread tends to pop up, I believe you sir, are the minority...
Considering how the forums are a pretty biased selection of gamers and it's many of the same people participating in these threads saying the same things (both pro and con), I think that's an inference on very weak evidence.
Pathfinder, and D&D in general, has been fantastically successful despite decades of caster/martial difference. Various editions have handled things somewhat differently, and some more successfully than others, yet the games remain quite successful. 4e, an edition that radically changed the power balance between the casters and martials, failed to supplant the editions that retained differences. Somehow, I don't really think I'm in the minority.
My opinion:
Most of what I have seen from complaints from Martials is that they are having problems, at higher levels, dealing with Casters. Do I pretty much understand that right?
the issue is that
want to scale a 100 foot wall?
Martial > several skill checks and rounds later
Magic > casts fly, spider climb, teleport, hell maybe they just create some stairs with stone shape
want to infiltrate a castle?
martial > a lot of stealth checks, planning, and several misc skill checks, any of which could spell failure for the whole plan
magic > cast fly then invisibility
want to defeat an army
martial > kill literally everything
magic > summon some help, dominate the enemy leader, rain down molten lava on the troops from the stratosphere, raise a few high RHD monsters as bloody skeletons and watch them to go work(they reform quickly after defeated anyway)
okay intimidate makes them hate you MORE after the duration expires, and doesn't even stop him from still trying to kill you.
"Success: If successful, the opponent will:
...give you information you desire
...take actions that do not endanger it
...offer other limited assistance"
if not killing you endangers it, it may just have the army try to kill you now.
Well considering how often this thread tends to pop up, I believe you sir, are the minority...Considering how the forums are a pretty biased selection of gamers and it's many of the same people participating in these threads saying the same things (both pro and con), I think that's an inference on very weak evidence.
Pathfinder, and D&D in general, has been fantastically successful despite decades of caster/martial difference. Various editions have handled things somewhat differently, and some more successfully than others, yet the games remain quite successful. 4e, an edition that radically changed the power balance between the casters and martials, failed to supplant the editions that retained differences. Somehow, I don't really think I'm in the minority.
Pathfinder has been undoubtedly successful, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have problems. The difference between martials and casters often has to do with scaling. A character like a fighter scales linearly, while a wizard scales quadraticly. Casters often have more options when it comes to their spells and can do simply do more. The biggest problem is options imo, casters can do so much more while fighters waste feat upon feat just trying to get good at tripping someone.
My opinion:
Most of what I have seen from complaints from Martials is that they are having problems, at higher levels, dealing with Casters. Do I pretty much understand that right?
want to defeat an army
martial > kill literally everything
magic > summon some help, dominate the enemy leader, rain down molten lava on the troops from the stratosphere, raise a few high RHD monsters as bloody skeletons and watch them to go work(they reform quickly after defeated anyway)
I played in a game we were fighting an army. I was a fighter, we had a wizard and a druid. Something similar to this happened.
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My opinion:
Most of what I have seen from complaints from Martials is that they are having problems, at higher levels, dealing with Casters. Do I pretty much understand that right?
Now:
Bear in mind, I play pretty much Paladins, Fighters, and Wizards. So I am pretty much the dead balance between Martial and Non-Martial.If the Martial is having problems dealing with Casters why don't they buy/special order/invest in magical items that stop Casters? Rarely is the heroic martial in a story reliant solely on martial skill in an Epic or High Fantasy tale. (Remember, Conan, an example being thrown around isn't in an Epic or Higher Fantasy setting. He's in a low fantasy setting.)
Secondly... Martials have more options than, "I beat it with a hammer."
They have skills, like Intimidate...
So while the caster can charm person the enemy commander... The fighter can walk up and say:
"Okay pal. Before this gets bloody you and I need to talk. If you think, for one second, that you have any shred of a chance to beat us then you are dumber than the greenest rookie I have ever seen. If you know who I am, then you know what I can do, if you don't know who I am, let me teach you. My name is (insert name here) and I've faced down hundreds of wannabe warlords who thought that they had a chance against me. They are all dead, but I'm still standing. Now, you can take a look at me and think, this guy is crazy, or bluffing. You can think that all you want, and you won't be the first, probably not the last either. Or, you can do the smart thing and turn around, call your men, and stand down, then maybe, just maybe, you'll live long enough to get home to someone who cares if you live or die, because I guarantee that you won't find anyone like that here."
They also have Armor Training, which increase the dex bonus to your armor, which is comparable to adding a magical enhancement bonus of +1 to your armor providing you have the dex, which frees up that space for other magical abilities to be placed in your
...
1) Because guys who makes most of those pretty little items?... Oh and items tend to have piss for CL, which dedicated casters tend to be able to beat. Also, all the wealth your dropping to expendables, the Wizard is spending on things making HIM stronger.
2) Skills get trumped by Spells A LOT. Climb? That's cute, Spider Climb makes that look sad. Intimidate? Has nothing on Dominate, or even Charm. Charm makes them like, best buddies with you... Oh and lets not even compare Acrobatics to things like Fly. Oh, and remember most Martials are very MAD. So you can say your cool schpeal all you want, but what is your Intimidate score and your Cha mod?... oh and that 2+Int mode skill ranks per level for fighters... remember, Wizard is a INT primary class. He can and will probably be more intimidating than your Fighter unless you specifically build for Intimidate....
3) Providing you have the dex... that is the big thing... Fighters are MAD as hell... You already need Str for Damage, CON for HP, Wis for your poor will saves... how much dex you going to have left? Unless your going for a Dex fighter with Piranha Strike or dipping to Swashbuckler... A mage has Mage Armor if he so choose... oh and Robes have 0 Dex penalty. Combine it with the +4-5 AC from certain robes (I.e. the ones most wizards end up wearing) AND the fact that Wizards tend to be Dex heavy also (Dex and Int are their two primary stats),so Wizards actually have fairly good AC if built right... combine that with things like Blur, Mirror Image, Invisiblity, and Flight and your golden...
4) You have feats... they got spells that replicate ALL your feats... like Summon Monster...(oh a tangent, Bebiliths are REALLY funny to summon against martials :P)
5) Again, no one doubts they are really good at hitting things... if they are physically capable of hitting them at all (flying wizards make un-prepared fighters cry).
Fighters are decent at hitting things (I say decent because they are MONSTERS if they full attack you... IF...) but they really are hurting without the aid of mages...
Pathfinder, and D&D in general, has been fantastically successful despite decades of caster/martial difference. Various editions have handled things somewhat differently, and some more successfully than others, yet the games remain quite successful. 4e, an edition that radically changed the power balance between the casters and martials, failed to supplant the editions that retained differences. Somehow, I don't really think I'm in the minority.
no offense but if you think we have weak evidence you probably haven't been reading our evidence, it's pretty factual.
Kobold press did a nice thing of making condensed combat feats but I think we could use a whole book of scaling combat feats.
Well considering how often this thread tends to pop up, I believe you sir, are the minority...Considering how the forums are a pretty biased selection of gamers and it's many of the same people participating in these threads saying the same things (both pro and con), I think that's an inference on very weak evidence.
Pathfinder, and D&D in general, has been fantastically successful despite decades of caster/martial difference. Various editions have handled things somewhat differently, and some more successfully than others, yet the games remain quite successful. 4e, an edition that radically changed the power balance between the casters and martials, failed to supplant the editions that retained differences. Somehow, I don't really think I'm in the minority.
Success does not mean that the system is not without it's faults. There are many people who don't know the disparity because there are many people who think throwing a basic fireball with no Meta-Magic is still a good thing to do at level 8...
The Forum is primary biased towards those WITH HEAVY SYSTEM KNOWLEDGE. And if those who really know the system CONSISTENTLY complain that this problem exists, chances are, it probably exists. If people don't know it because they don't know the game/have a GM playing on easy then that does not mean the system is not broke, it just means they just are not knowledgable enough to see it.
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E6? Why would I play E6 when the broader range of PF levels works just fine for me? I'm not having significant problems with the difference between casters and martials when I run PF, so why should I pare the game down?
I think that the way you prefer your martial characters you may have chosen to play the wrong game system. If you wanted to play your interpretation of "Heroes of Legend", why did you pick a D&D variant rather than Mutants and Masterminds or Champions, both of which would seem to fit your needs, at least for the martial characters, better than Pathfinder?
Because for all practical purposes a Full Caster becomes God [or at least A god] at the high levels, while a martial chained by reality isn't even relevant anymore.
We want Cu Cuchulainn and Herakles and Thor and such for the martials because the Full Casters are becoming Zeus and Odin and if stretched far enough possibly even Jehova.
At level 17 a wizard makes Zeus cry...
Last I checked Zeus couldn't create alternate realities willy nilly (Create Greater Demiplane is SO REDICULOUS)...
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They really don't.The difference between a level 1 Fighter and a level 20 Fighter who have to move and attack with a sword is purely the numbers. Both will be forced to move and make one attack.
Meanwhile the Wizard goes from "Summon a badger" to "Make clones of Demon Lords while relaxing on your private time while Astral Projecting to do anything with virtually guaranteed safety while safe in the knowledge that should they die they'll just wake up in one of their clones".
See the difference?
Mostly, I'm seeing an issue in play style that it's up to the table to police. Why would a group of players allow one of them to astrally project in to the adventure without taking the rest of them in the same manner (since, clearly, he can)? I can't think of too many that would allow that. Yet you're showing me that's an issue that a lot of these complaints about quadratic wizards linear fights hinge on. Yes, wizards and other full casters get some powers to control the narrative that martials don't get, but if this is a group of adventurers, those powers largely serve to open up new vistas for the group as a whole. The high level casters can cast astral projection? Great - let's all go project ourselves to new worlds and adventure there! That it's the wizard, not the fighter, initiating the ability is largely immaterial.
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and I mean, there are so many cool things you can do but Martials are just shackled to "realism" and anything remotely cool immediately gets disparaged as "too wuxia" or "too weeaboo" or something stupid (like moving so fast you literaly blur and make it harder to track your movements)I think the martials get plenty of cool things to do but clearly my expectations are different from yours. I want my fantasy games to contrast with the superhero games I play, which cover what you are describing quite well. I want them to be grounded in a certain degree of realism compared to superhero games.
Except in the current system, only non-casters have any limitations imposed upon them by this expectation of "realism" which leads to high levels having anime casters and Lords of the Rings warriors. I'd prefer a game where wizards have a reason to have a fighter around other than as a pet.
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Success does not mean that the system is not without it's faults. There are many people who don't know the disparity because there are many people who think throwing a basic fireball with no Meta-Magic is still a good thing to do at level 8...
Are they having fun with it? Then it's a pretty good thing to do.
The Forum is primary biased towards those WITH HEAVY SYSTEM KNOWLEDGE. And if those who really know the system CONSISTENTLY complain that this problem exists, chances are, it probably exists. If people don't know it because they don't know the game/have a GM playing on easy then that does not mean the system is not broke, it just means they just are not knowledgable enough to see it.
The forum his primarily biased toward people active on-line, interested in the game, and with an axe to grind in some way, shape, or form. Not necessarily toward those with heavy system knowledge.
Of course, just because you think it's broken, doesn't mean that's true for everybody. Nor is it necessarily true that people with a different assessment from yours aren't knowledgeable of the game. They may not feel the issue is as important as you think it is.
They really don't.The difference between a level 1 Fighter and a level 20 Fighter who have to move and attack with a sword is purely the numbers. Both will be forced to move and make one attack.
Meanwhile the Wizard goes from "Summon a badger" to "Make clones of Demon Lords while relaxing on your private time while Astral Projecting to do anything with virtually guaranteed safety while safe in the knowledge that should they die they'll just wake up in one of their clones".
See the difference?
Mostly, I'm seeing an issue in play style that it's up to the table to police. Why would a group of players allow one of them to astrally project in to the adventure without taking the rest of them in the same manner (since, clearly, he can)? I can't think of too many that would allow that. Yet you're showing me that's an issue that a lot of these complaints about quadratic wizards linear fights hinge on. Yes, wizards and other full casters get some powers to control the narrative that martials don't get, but if this is a group of adventurers, those powers largely serve to open up new vistas for the group as a whole. The high level casters can cast astral projection? Great - let's all go project ourselves to new worlds and adventure there! That it's the wizard, not the fighter, initiating the ability is largely immaterial.
But what happens IF YOU DON'T HAVE A WIZARD?
THAT is the problem, the game COMPLETELY CHANGES if you have a wizard, or any caster really. If you add an extra martials you really don't chnge much... just make things a little tougher so they don't die in combat so quickly, but if you add a wizard you need to completely change things because they can completely ignore things that would plague a fighter... and nothing short of intentional GM harrassment can really stop them ("Suddenly some random mage that is 13 levels higher than you teleports into your Private Mage Tower, dispells are your stuff, destroys your spare books and clones, and goes away. At the same time some rogue steals yoru current spell book SO HA!!!! NO SPELL CASTING FOR YOU!")
Success does not mean that the system is not without it's faults. There are many people who don't know the disparity because there are many people who think throwing a basic fireball with no Meta-Magic is still a good thing to do at level 8...
Are they having fun with it? Then it's a pretty good thing to do.
The Forum is primary biased towards those WITH HEAVY SYSTEM KNOWLEDGE. And if those who really know the system CONSISTENTLY complain that this problem exists, chances are, it probably exists. If people don't know it because they don't know the game/have a GM playing on easy then that does not mean the system is not broke, it just means they just are not knowledgable enough to see it.The forum his primarily biased toward people active on-line, interested in the game, and with an axe to grind in some way, shape, or form. Not necessarily toward those with heavy system knowledge.
Of course, just because you think it's broken, doesn't mean that's true for everybody. Nor is it necessarily true that people with a different assessment from yours aren't knowledgeable of the game. They may not feel the issue is as important as you think it is.
But it is not just me...
IT HAS BEEN A COMPLAINT SINCE 3.5...
Unless your saying Master Character builds and system masters are also wrong since 3.5...
Also, fun is subjective. Fun is not a valid argument in questions of balance. I had fun playing a Kobold Dragonfire Adept in 3.5... next to a machinegun rogue... does not necessarily mean they were well balanced against each other...
Success does not mean that the system is not without it's faults. There are many people who don't know the disparity because there are many people who think throwing a basic fireball with no Meta-Magic is still a good thing to do at level 8...
Are they having fun with it? Then it's a pretty good thing to do.
The Forum is primary biased towards those WITH HEAVY SYSTEM KNOWLEDGE. And if those who really know the system CONSISTENTLY complain that this problem exists, chances are, it probably exists. If people don't know it because they don't know the game/have a GM playing on easy then that does not mean the system is not broke, it just means they just are not knowledgable enough to see it.The forum his primarily biased toward people active on-line, interested in the game, and with an axe to grind in some way, shape, or form. Not necessarily toward those with heavy system knowledge.
Of course, just because you think it's broken, doesn't mean that's true for everybody. Nor is it necessarily true that people with a different assessment from yours aren't knowledgeable of the game. They may not feel the issue is as important as you think it is.
I just have one question for you. why can't martials have the OPTION of doing these nifty plot useful things? why does the party NEED a "wizard" to have access to these utility powers?
The forum his primarily biased toward people active on-line, interested in the game, and with an axe to grind in some way, shape, or form. Not necessarily toward those with heavy system knowledge.
well, i know i came here at least to chat and learn about pathfinder, and thus am here because of my system knowledge and wish to speak with other people with system knowledge... so...
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But what happens IF YOU DON'T HAVE A WIZARD?
THAT is the problem, the game COMPLETELY CHANGES if you have a wizard, or any caster really. If you add an extra martials you really don't chnge much... just make things a little tougher so they don't die in combat so quickly, but if you add a wizard you need to completely change things because they can completely ignore things that would plague a fighter... and nothing short of intentional GM harrassment can really stop them ("Suddenly some random mage that is 13 levels higher than you teleports into your Private Mage Tower, dispells are your stuff, destroys your spare books and clones, and goes away. At the same time some rogue steals yoru current spell book SO HA!!!! NO SPELL CASTING FOR YOU!")
Who cares whether or not the game completely changes if you have a high level caster or not? If you don't have one, your game takes one trajectory. If you have them, it takes another. This is part of the brilliance of RPGs - all sorts of options are possible depending on what the PCs are, what they have, what they want to do. Traveller ends up being a pretty different game depending on whether or not the PCs have a starship - so the GM prepares the game accordingly - like a GM does in PF and D&D-based games depending on what the players bring to the table.
well, i know i came here at least to chat and learn about pathfinder, and thus am here because of my system knowledge and wish to speak with other people with system knowledge... so...
The forum his primarily biased toward people active on-line, interested in the game, and with an axe to grind in some way, shape, or form. Not necessarily toward those with heavy system knowledge.
Exactly! lol, I initially joined the boards to learn the system better and pick the brains of people like RD and Lormyr and stuff and eventually, become fairly competent myself (at least with casters). And also just have fun debating with people xD