If we were to "fix" the system so martials do "get nice things", what would we do?


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Soilent wrote:
Saldiven wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:
Ghray wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:


The ultimate question, though, is why is the witch stepping on the rogue's toes when he didn't need to do so?
Because the witch CAN.
If that is the justification, that pretty much tells me that the player is a dick and there's going to be a toxic relationship at the table. Overlapping abilities can be used cooperatively or competitively. If you're going to compete with your fellow players, why are you at my table? Good cooperative relationships can make this issue not a problem.
That doesn't address the issue that if the classes were appropriately balanced, the Witch couldn't have done it in the first place.
Overlap sometimes happens, but if you're trying to convince me that a 2+INT class is going to completely overshadow a 8+INT class, I won't be able to hear you over the amount of laughter.

8+Int in a very MAD class vs 2+Int in aclass that is INT PRIMARY AND SAD. Also, as noted a lot, 8+int skills is over rated because you will very quickly end up having more skill points than is useful... so you end up taking Profesion Baker...


Ah, I remember when I first had this little problem as a DM. You know what I did? I replaced the fighter, monk, and rogue with the Tome of Battle Classes. Still works in Pathfinder, too.


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DM_Blake wrote:
I like chocolate chips but they're too weak and insignificant, so I'm going to eliminate them from my kitchen but start sprinkling chocolate chips on my steaks. Yeah, chocolate-chip-steaks just aren't going to be on my menu any time soon.

Chocolate-chip-steak sounds amazing.


DropBearHunter wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:

I'm not saying Pathfinder is broken. Far from it. I like the group dynamic and think a good GM can make wonderful challenges for a FULL PARTY even though there is power and/or utility "tier" disparity between the individuals of that party.

But, if we wanted to rig the system to smooth out that disparity, what changes would we make?

Can we do it without turning every martial class into into weird magus/jedi/ninja/wizards?

Remove Teleport spells and the caster will need the martials to keep them alive when they run out of magic.

Without magic to take him home the caster is just a whimp in a fancy outfit.

My dominate focus Sorcerer and my Stealth sorcerer Beg to differ... tturns sorcerers make rogues cry when it comes to stealth, even without having to resort to invisibility

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

PIXIE DUST wrote:
Freesword wrote:
Petty Alchemy wrote:
To be fair, Hercules and Cu are demigods, not mundane folk.

So, flying around, raising the dead, teleporting across the country, causally hopping across the planes, and creating demi-planes - are these things mundane folk would do or are they things demigods would do?

This argument bugs me... a lot of martials cant do nixe things because the cool stuff that western mythological heroes do is locked behind the whole "divinity" thig

You can be a potent martial (ex. Barbarian), but you can't be potent mundane character (at higher levels).

There's no such concept as a mundane caster (magic cannot be mundane), but there is the concept of the mundane martial.

Community Manager

Removed some posts and their replies. Using "go play another edition" as a response—it doesn't really help the discussion. Also, insulting other posters who you don't agree with is not cool; reread the Community Guidelines.


Doomed Hero wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:

Hercules redirected a RIVER into the Augean (sp?) stables. No fighter can do that. ;)

Not in one day anyway. Even a commoner could do it with a shovel and enough time.

Adamantine Shovel says no problem. Even easier with Sunder and an Adamantine Hammer. Just attack the ground like you're swinging a golf club.

Over and over and over again all day long. Dependent on special material.

In my own games a Fighter of level 17 or higher could PUNCH [or attack with a melee weapon] the river so hard he redirected its course. [The river flowed in the new direction and carved out its own new channel, supplemented by the additional force provided by the Hero in question.

Quote:
Had this happen in a game once. Turns out that if you look at the "HP per inch" rules on dirt and then apply a mid level fighter or barbarian's damage to that, they can basically blast out a trench at a rate of a few feet per swing.

It's handy, but it's not High Level.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Petty Alchemy wrote:
Freesword wrote:
Petty Alchemy wrote:
To be fair, Hercules and Cu are demigods, not mundane folk.
So, flying around, raising the dead, teleporting across the country, causally hopping across the planes, and creating demi-planes - are these things mundane folk would do or are they things demigods would do?
Not sure what point you're making. Obviously magic isn't mundane.

So why is a 17th level fighter 'mundane folk' while a 17th level wizard is a 'demigod'?

If we're gauging demigodhood on power, a 17th level character should be a demigod, irrespective of class. If we're gauging demigodhood on ancestry, then a 17th level character should still fall into a different class than "mundane folk," irrespective of class.

The idea that a wizard can teleport, but a fighter can't jump over a 12' wall is.... problematic.

NEEDS MORE MOFUGGING THUMBS.

I have been trying to essentially tell this to people who relish the disparity as some sort of (understandable) nerd power vengeance fantasy.

Martials shouldn't be shackled to mundanity - they should be just as capable of doing the impossible as their finger-wiggling compatriots, just by different means. It doesn't mean shooting lasers from the eyes, but should be not entirely unlike Unchained skills. Shout may be a spell, but I don't see the problem with someone having reached the point of such stupendous badassery that they can yell at an opposing army to lay down their weapons and flee, and a good number will recognize who they face and comply. I'm not even remotely opposed to allowing get the sorts of things that would, if asked "Could a Rock Lee type who is powered by insane levels of training do this allegedly impossible thing?" get a nod and a smile. There is no reason to allow, after a substantial amount of kicking butt and taking names, for a bit of doing the impossible and seeing the invisible to take place.


I have been continuously recommending The Book of Martial Action I & II to use in conjunction with since before Unchained came out in case anyone thought Path of War replaced their martials instead of buffing the ones they had. I wonder if anyone tried it out. Or just thought about it. Or believes me or disbelieves me.

I also think consolidating the major combat feats is helpful too. Not every single one but the main ones that generate the most frequent core fighting methods like TWF, Cleave and Vital Strike. Having major combat feats consolidated to scale with BAB is pretty significant.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Caineach wrote:
Right. But by your interpretation taking 10 would be impossible in pretty much any situation, so why have the rule? And invisibility only gives you a +20 to stealth checks. A level 10 rogue can have that pretty easily.

yeah so can the wizard... who then also casts invisibility... because lets face it he's clocking in a 8 skill points per level pretty easily.


Petty Alchemy wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Am I the only one who noticed how quickly this thread devolved from trying to actually come up with reasonable solutions to another - "martials are weak - rebuild the system from the ground up!" thread?

Lol

(Of note - I actually agree that at higher levels [9ish + - though depends upon the martial] martials are weaker - but few are saying anything like a solution sans the rebuilding of the entire class system.)

We have this thread like once a month because there is no quickfix, especially when people can't even agree about the problem.

You can never leave Hotel California.

Yeah, if there was a quick and simple fix to the martial/caster disparity, it already would've come up at some point during 3.0/3.5/PF's lifecycle.


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PIXIE DUST wrote:
Soilent wrote:
Saldiven wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:
Ghray wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:


The ultimate question, though, is why is the witch stepping on the rogue's toes when he didn't need to do so?
Because the witch CAN.
If that is the justification, that pretty much tells me that the player is a dick and there's going to be a toxic relationship at the table. Overlapping abilities can be used cooperatively or competitively. If you're going to compete with your fellow players, why are you at my table? Good cooperative relationships can make this issue not a problem.
That doesn't address the issue that if the classes were appropriately balanced, the Witch couldn't have done it in the first place.
Overlap sometimes happens, but if you're trying to convince me that a 2+INT class is going to completely overshadow a 8+INT class, I won't be able to hear you over the amount of laughter.
8+Int in a very MAD class vs 2+Int in aclass that is INT PRIMARY AND SAD. Also, as noted a lot, 8+int skills is over rated because you will very quickly end up having more skill points than is useful... so you end up taking Profesion Baker...

Just because you've never tried using Bakeries to defeat the BBEG doesnt make it an invalid strategy.


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Malwing wrote:

I have been continuously recommending The Book of Martial Action I & II to use in conjunction with since before Unchained came out in case anyone thought Path of War replaced their martials instead of buffing the ones they had. I wonder if anyone tried it out. Or just thought about it. Or believes me or disbelieves me.

I also think consolidating the major combat feats is helpful too. Not every single one but the main ones that generate the most frequent core fighting methods like TWF, Cleave and Vital Strike. Having major combat feats consolidated to scale with BAB is pretty significant.

Consolidating is good, tweaking them as well is better. Vital Strike should really be usable in cases like at the end of a charge. Power Attack and Combat Expertise should let you throttle the maximum bonus/penalty if you want. I see no reason Improved Critical shouldn't be applied to a whole weapon category (why aren't you as good a shot with a shortbow as with a longbow). Also, having these feats work together in interesting ways would be good. For example, if you have Combat Reflexes, you can expend all your additional attacks of opportunity to use Vital Strike with your first AoO that round. Or maybe someone with both Dodge and Fleet can take an extra 5-ft step once per round when at attack misses them. As many have noted, power is only part of the issue with spells. Added flexibility of choices from everything spells can do is another. If a wizard can potentially have dozens of "just in case" tricks up his sleeve using magic, why shouldn't the 'feat class' (aka the fighter) have similar options and versatility with their class features?


Chengar Qordath wrote:
Petty Alchemy wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Am I the only one who noticed how quickly this thread devolved from trying to actually come up with reasonable solutions to another - "martials are weak - rebuild the system from the ground up!" thread?

Lol

(Of note - I actually agree that at higher levels [9ish + - though depends upon the martial] martials are weaker - but few are saying anything like a solution sans the rebuilding of the entire class system.)

We have this thread like once a month because there is no quickfix, especially when people can't even agree about the problem.

You can never leave Hotel California.

Yeah, if there was a quick and simple fix to the martial/caster disparity, it already would've come up at some point during 3.0/3.5/PF's lifecycle.

Technically, it already did. It's called ToB/Psionics.


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Can we talk about potential solutions rather than whatever we're arguing about right now? There's two entire threads going on right now about anything but discussing reasonable solutions.

Lets talk about patching feats.

Lets talk about better stamina tricks.

Lets talk about adding patches to classes.

Lets talk about new feats.

Lets talk about tweaking saves.

Lets talk about Unchained options.

Lets talk about third party options.

Lets talk about something related to the subject.

In the realm of third party material I've been collecting a number of fighter/rogue focused solutions as well as general martial boosts. There aren't that many because some the nature of magic is to break rules while just add abilities but I think odd weapons is another potential solution. This is partially because of a lot of fiction I've read where technology is the counter to magic rather than martial prowess, as a result of that thought pattern I typically weaponize alchemical items when I play fighters. This thinking doesn't have to stay at extraordinary technology like alchemical items but any kind of martial technology that can utilize BAB or attack bonuses in general. In the game Vindictus, one thing that cripple big monsters to make it easier to deal with are spears that stun, grappling hooks that trip, and flash grenades that blind. Martials getting access to ranged combat maneuvers and the ability to improve the range of useability of combat maneuvers could be good. Or just similar things. I've always like the idea of Called Shots as a means to cripple larger creatures and casters.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

the post, literally above yours :P


Kineticist is a martial, isnt it?

That one seems fine so far, with the playtest.


Cerberus Seven wrote:
Malwing wrote:

I have been continuously recommending The Book of Martial Action I & II to use in conjunction with since before Unchained came out in case anyone thought Path of War replaced their martials instead of buffing the ones they had. I wonder if anyone tried it out. Or just thought about it. Or believes me or disbelieves me.

I also think consolidating the major combat feats is helpful too. Not every single one but the main ones that generate the most frequent core fighting methods like TWF, Cleave and Vital Strike. Having major combat feats consolidated to scale with BAB is pretty significant.

Consolidating is good, tweaking them as well is better. Vital Strike should really be usable in cases like at the end of a charge. Power Attack and Combat Expertise should let you throttle the maximum bonus/penalty if you want. I see no reason Improved Critical shouldn't be applied to a whole weapon category (why aren't you as good a shot with a shortbow as with a longbow). Also, having these feats work together in interesting ways would be good. For example, if you have Combat Reflexes, you can expend all your additional attacks of opportunity to use Vital Strike with your first AoO that round. Or maybe someone with both Dodge and Fleet can take an extra 5-ft step once per round when at attack misses them. As many have noted, power is only part of the issue with spells. Added flexibility of choices from everything spells can do is another. If a wizard can potentially have dozens of "just in case" tricks up his sleeve using magic, why shouldn't the 'feat class' (aka the fighter) have similar options and versatility with their class features?

How do you feel about these feats?:

Flash Cut: He can spend a stamina point to make an AoO against anyone that enters a space he threatens.

Meditations of Harmony: Can spend stamina to gain a bonus to saves if a successful attack is made.

Shadow of the Falcon: Can spend a stamina point to make a Combat Maneuver without provoking.

I've fine with Vital Strike functioning as just a standard action, and Weapon Focus functioning as it is mostly because I've added too much third party stuff that affects martials. In a one shot I saw a 6th level fighter with no outside help start doing 8d6+numbers+Power Attack using just the first vital strike feat. That's five feats in but was also running on 5 skill ranks per level, reach and a climb speed. In some cases I like to try to focus on more versatility too because in my current games martials are lethal and hard to damage/hit but lack in pretty much every arena that spells can affect.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

i made an archetype for fighter that replaces nothing that gives 4+int skill mod and a panache like pool using constitution. i also just use unchained rogue.


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I believe that house rules have a looseness to them that allows them to solve more problems than system rules can, too. House rules have the flexibility to adjust when players are being jerks. Just 'cause Pathfinder wasn't able to solve these problems doesn't mean house rules can't. So let's not rule them out.


Malwing wrote:
I've always like the idea of Called Shots as a means to cripple larger creatures and casters.

might work as a Fighter Bonus Feat sort of thing, or Rogue Advanced Talent

if you make Called Shots generally available you'll just have the casters take them too.
"Ray of Frost to the head"

Also: giving more Skill Points to the fighter.
How about basing bonus skill points not on only Int. but on the ability related to the skill?
Int bonus for Appraise etc.
Dex for Acrobatics etc.
Str. for Climb etc.
Skill points gained from classes can be used anywhere, points gained from other ability have to be spent on a skill that uses this ability.
Chose one ability to gain skill points from at each level.


Malwing wrote:
Cerberus Seven wrote:
Malwing wrote:

I have been continuously recommending The Book of Martial Action I & II to use in conjunction with since before Unchained came out in case anyone thought Path of War replaced their martials instead of buffing the ones they had. I wonder if anyone tried it out. Or just thought about it. Or believes me or disbelieves me.

I also think consolidating the major combat feats is helpful too. Not every single one but the main ones that generate the most frequent core fighting methods like TWF, Cleave and Vital Strike. Having major combat feats consolidated to scale with BAB is pretty significant.

Consolidating is good, tweaking them as well is better. Vital Strike should really be usable in cases like at the end of a charge. Power Attack and Combat Expertise should let you throttle the maximum bonus/penalty if you want. I see no reason Improved Critical shouldn't be applied to a whole weapon category (why aren't you as good a shot with a shortbow as with a longbow). Also, having these feats work together in interesting ways would be good. For example, if you have Combat Reflexes, you can expend all your additional attacks of opportunity to use Vital Strike with your first AoO that round. Or maybe someone with both Dodge and Fleet can take an extra 5-ft step once per round when at attack misses them. As many have noted, power is only part of the issue with spells. Added flexibility of choices from everything spells can do is another. If a wizard can potentially have dozens of "just in case" tricks up his sleeve using magic, why shouldn't the 'feat class' (aka the fighter) have similar options and versatility with their class features?

How do you feel about these feats?:

Flash Cut: He can spend a stamina point to make an AoO against anyone that enters a space he threatens.

Meditations of Harmony: Can spend stamina to gain a bonus to saves if a successful attack is made.

Shadow of the Falcon: Can spend a stamina point to make a Combat Maneuver without provoking.

Flash Cut is too powerful. Remember, these can go to monsters too. It would be hyper-aggravating to have a monster with Combat Stamina use this AND their AoOs with Combat Reflexes AND the stamina-boosted version of Combat Reflexes with extended reach from being larger / non-humanoid / magically enhanced. Maybe make it an immediate action against someone that moves adjacent to them instead? That way another form of their action economy is sunk into it.

Meditations of Harmony sounds too much like a monk thing rather than a 'muscle through it' generic martial thing. Also, why tie it to an attack roll? I'd say just make it an immediate action to spend 1 stamina and re-roll a failed saving throw. Maybe add Con mod as a bonus to the re-roll.

Shadow of the Falcon is simply too good. Honestly, there's a LOT about the combat maneuver system that bugs me, but this isn't a fix for it. As fast as stamina recharges, this is essentially the more important half of ALL the combat maneuver feats rolled into one. Now, if it reduced the CMB penalty from AoO damage by your BAB or something, that'd be better. Again, you have to think about what happens if this is used against the PCs, too.


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DM_Blake wrote:


But, if we wanted to rig the system to smooth out that disparity, what changes would we make?
It's pretty easy really.

  • 1) When making characters, no starting ability scores above 16, or below 10 after racial adjustment.
    That fixes half the problems of class power imbalance.
  • 2) Remove hold person and dominate person from the game.
  • 3) 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells take at least a full round action to cast.
  • 4) Spells with a duration of days/level get changed to hours/level. Some permanent spells might have their duration reduced.
  • 5) Remove quicken spell from the game, or make it apply only to spells with a range of personal.
  • 6) Remove or rewrite stupid s@&! like dazing spell meta-magic, witches slumber hex, and other obviously broken stuff.
  • 7) I would sit down with the players and explain that I don't like to play with a lot of action denial techniques. RPG-Tag is not a fun way to play. This applies on both sides of the screen. I don't want to consistently take a player out of action with save-or-suck and for similar reasons, I don't want players using those tactics on my named NPC/monsters.
  • 8)Consider crafted items the same as purchased when determining Wealth By Level. I would also make master craftsman into a more useful feat

That should fix about 95% of problems between caster/martials.

For more detail, and some other stuff, click on my name to see an optimization guide I'm in the process of writing.


DropBearHunter wrote:
Malwing wrote:
I've always like the idea of Called Shots as a means to cripple larger creatures and casters.

might work as a Fighter Bonus Feat sort of thing, or Rogue Advanced Talent

if you make Called Shots generally available you'll just have the casters take them too.
"Ray of Frost to the head"

Also: giving more Skill Points to the fighter.
How about basing bonus skill points not on only Int. but on the ability related to the skill?
Int bonus for Appraise etc.
Dex for Acrobatics etc.
Str. for Climb etc.
Skill points gained from classes can be used anywhere, points gained from other ability have to be spent on a skill that uses this ability.
Chose one ability to gain skill points from at each level.

Don't casters benefit from called shots less? They don't generally have the accuracy to get in on it consistently, touch attacks have to target normal AC along with the penalties from called shots, and they don't have the BAB to use the feats early enough to matter. They'd be better off just casting a spell that does the same effect.

In regards to skills I've been toying with the idea of using Unchained's consolidated skill list only using the whole skill per level and eliminating INT as a factor in skills per level. This was somewhat inspired by playing D&D 5th edition and noticing that Wizards only get proficiencies at 2 skills at their base but were still generally useful and seeing just how many of the consolidated skills converted into INT-based skills. I haven't had the guts to really do it yet as it seemed that ripping skills from the wizard/witch/magus has been unpopular on the boards.


Malwing wrote:
Don't casters benefit from called shots less? They don't generally have the accuracy to get in on it consistently, touch attacks have to target normal AC along with the penalties from called shots, and they don't have the BAB to use the feats early enough to matter. They'd be better off just casting a spell that does the same effect.

Yeah, touch attacks hit normal AC with called shots. Throw in the negatives on top of that and any mage who tries to use them is an idiot. I never looked at called shots until now though. I like them.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I believe that house rules have a looseness to them that allows them to solve more problems than system rules can, too. House rules have the flexibility to adjust when players are being jerks. Just 'cause Pathfinder wasn't able to solve these problems doesn't mean house rules can't. So let's not rule them out.

hugs, kisses KC


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Ok, putting aside the "keep your chocolate magic out of my peanut butter martial" debate, let's start small:

Collapse feat trees. Especially the feat/improved/greater ones. If you take the first feat in the chain, it automatically upgrades when you reach the prerequisites for the next one. This will free up feat slots for more possible diversity vs committing them all to a narrow specialization. This will be a start toward "martials can't do anything besides hit things" since they might be able to afford to invest in doing something else.

Also don't skill starve them (looking at the 2+Int classes). This cripples diversity when popular skills need to be maxed to keep up with level appropriate challenges. (Doesn't do a damn thing for when spells completely obsolete skills, but it is a start.)

Also let them move and full attack. Casters can do huge amounts of damage or even bypass hp altogether as a standard action and still move 30 feet. Martials don't need to be penalized in the action economy.

Yes, these have all been said before. They aren't enough in and of themselves, but they are a beginning that shouldn't offend the magic vs mundane sensibilities of anyone. And if you think this little bit is changing the game too much then you are part of the problem because this is just a band-aid on the sucking chest wound that is martial/caster disparity.


Cerberus Seven wrote:

Flash Cut is too powerful. Remember, these can go to monsters too. It would be hyper-aggravating to have a monster with Combat Stamina use this AND their AoOs with Combat Reflexes AND the stamina-boosted version of Combat Reflexes with extended reach from being larger / non-humanoid / magically enhanced. Maybe make it an immediate action against someone that moves adjacent to them instead? That way another form of their action economy is sunk into it.

Meditations of Harmony sounds too much like a monk thing rather than a 'muscle through it' generic martial thing. Also, why tie it to an attack roll? I'd say just make it an immediate action to spend 1 stamina and re-roll a failed saving throw. Maybe add Con mod as a bonus to the re-roll.

Shadow of the Falcon is simply too good. Honestly, there's a LOT about the combat maneuver system that bugs me, but this isn't a fix for it. As fast as stamina recharges, this is essentially the more important half of ALL the combat maneuver feats rolled into one. Now, if it reduced the CMB penalty from AoO damage by your BAB or something, that'd be better. Again, you have to think about what happens if this is used against the PCs, too.

I've only used these things on NPCs with class levels so I haven't really noticed.

I somewhat felt that Flash Cut was rather conservative. I guess no wonder fighters seemed good when I started using a book full of these.

Meditations of Harmony looks mostly flavored to being focused so much on combat that you're in a hyper-reflexive state, but overall its like that because it's not my feat, it comes from a third party thing full of 'nice things for fighters' that has a pool that works similar to stamina. That specific feat is from a series of feats representing a fighting style of self-perfection much like the monk. I don't know why it's hooked up to an attack but I'm going to guess it's as nerf.

I paraphrased Shadow of the Falcon. It lets you spend stamina to ignore provoking and adds a +2 bonus when you wouldn't have provoked so it doesn't exactly replace combat maneuver feats. I thought it appropriate because one complaint I've always seen was that combat maneuvers were weak and difficult to specialize in.

So I'm guessing you wouldn't allow these?


chaoseffect wrote:
Malwing wrote:
Don't casters benefit from called shots less? They don't generally have the accuracy to get in on it consistently, touch attacks have to target normal AC along with the penalties from called shots, and they don't have the BAB to use the feats early enough to matter. They'd be better off just casting a spell that does the same effect.
Yeah, touch attacks hit normal AC with called shots. Throw in the negatives on top of that and any mage who tries to use them is an idiot. I never looked at called shots until now though. I like them.

I made a fighter BBEG with called shots. He was scary. PC needed a clockwork arm but it worked out for the best because I let him put a stave in it.

Particularly with the core stamina ability involved called shot fighters can almost immediately cripple a guy for at least a few rounds.


Soilent wrote:

Kineticist is a martial, isnt it?

That one seems fine so far, with the playtest.

The Kineticist is mostly Su and Sp, like the Barbarian.

It's also the baby of a relatively new designer on the Paizo team.


Malwing wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Malwing wrote:
Don't casters benefit from called shots less? They don't generally have the accuracy to get in on it consistently, touch attacks have to target normal AC along with the penalties from called shots, and they don't have the BAB to use the feats early enough to matter. They'd be better off just casting a spell that does the same effect.
Yeah, touch attacks hit normal AC with called shots. Throw in the negatives on top of that and any mage who tries to use them is an idiot. I never looked at called shots until now though. I like them.

I made a fighter BBEG with called shots. He was scary. PC needed a clockwork arm but it worked out for the best because I let him put a stave in it.

Particularly with the core stamina ability involved called shot fighters can almost immediately cripple a guy for at least a few rounds.

I can't be bothered to read the Stamina system, but I was thinking along the lines of crit build with the called shot feat that allows you to make any number of them per round.


Fergie wrote:
  • 3) 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells take at least a full round action to cast.
  • Personally I would go further and remove them entirely dropping all caster down to 6 levels. (maybe allowing some of those high level effects as multi-hour/day rituals)

    With regard to the casting time, do you mean full round (can only take a 5' step and it still goes off this round) or one round (start casting this round and it goes off at the beginning of your action next round)?

    I have in the past said save or lose should be one round casting time.

    And action denial is one of the major contributing factors in this issue. Casters have it in abundance, martials - not so much.


    Freesword wrote:

    Ok, putting aside the "keep your chocolate magic out of my peanut butter martial" debate, let's start small:

    Collapse feat trees. Especially the feat/improved/greater ones. If you take the first feat in the chain, it automatically upgrades when you reach the prerequisites for the next one. This will free up feat slots for more possible diversity vs committing them all to a narrow specialization. This will be a start toward "martials can't do anything besides hit things" since they might be able to afford to invest in doing something else.

    Also don't skill starve them (looking at the 2+Int classes). This cripples diversity when popular skills need to be maxed to keep up with level appropriate challenges. (Doesn't do a damn thing for when spells completely obsolete skills, but it is a start.)

    Also let them move and full attack. Casters can do huge amounts of damage or even bypass hp altogether as a standard action and still move 30 feet. Martials don't need to be penalized in the action economy.

    Yes, these have all been said before. They aren't enough in and of themselves, but they are a beginning that shouldn't offend the magic vs mundane sensibilities of anyone. And if you think this little bit is changing the game too much then you are part of the problem because this is just a band-aid on the sucking chest wound that is martial/caster disparity.

    some nice ideas here. Not sure if I had auto leveling of feats, but I did make them capable of greater things when taken by fighters, and I either changed 5 foot steps for fighters or increased their opportunities for full attacks. I think I just had someone lose a single attack when moving overall- I need to check my file.


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    Freesword wrote:

    Also let them move and full attack. Casters can do huge amounts of damage or even bypass hp altogether as a standard action and still move 30 feet. Martials don't need to be penalized in the action economy.

    Yessss! Let's all move and full attack, that will be fun!

    Casts haste for 230' fly speed and 8 attacks per round...

    More seriously, move and full attack makes martial characters overpowered for their APL/CR. It creates more problems then it fixes.


    Freesword wrote:
    Fergie wrote:
  • 3) 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells take at least a full round action to cast.
  • Personally I would go further and remove them entirely dropping all caster down to 6 levels. (maybe allowing some of those high level effects as multi-hour/day rituals)

    With regard to the casting time, do you mean full round (can only take a 5' step and it still goes off this round) or one round (start casting this round and it goes off at the beginning of your action next round)?

    I have in the past said save or lose should be one round casting time.

    And action denial is one of the major contributing factors in this issue. Casters have it in abundance, martials - not so much.

    I would say full round, simply to avoid the effect of the spell going off then the caster casting another spell right afterwards. I could get behind removing the highest level spells from the game, as I see no way to balance the game when Wish and Miracle exist. I think AD&D never intended players to be casting the highest level spells.

    PS Ancient Black Dragon is one of my aliases.


    2 people marked this as a favorite.
    Ancient Black Dragon wrote:
    Freesword wrote:

    Also let them move and full attack. Casters can do huge amounts of damage or even bypass hp altogether as a standard action and still move 30 feet. Martials don't need to be penalized in the action economy.

    Yessss! Let's all move and full attack, that will be fun!

    Casts haste for 230' fly speed and 8 attacks per round...

    More seriously, move and full attack makes martial characters overpowered for their APL/CR. It creates more problems then it fixes.

    If that's the case, then 90% of Barbarians and all Archers are supposedly overpowered.

    Take a look at the massive piles of HP on monsters. See those? Spellcasters skip them entirely, as a standard action.

    Giving Martials the ability to spend one move action and still actually use the power the game gave them breaks nothing. In fact it's only a small step in the right direction, but a step it is.


    Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
    Cerberus Seven wrote:
    Malwing wrote:
    Cerberus Seven wrote:
    Malwing wrote:

    I have been continuously recommending The Book of Martial Action I & II to use in conjunction with since before Unchained came out in case anyone thought Path of War replaced their martials instead of buffing the ones they had. I wonder if anyone tried it out. Or just thought about it. Or believes me or disbelieves me.

    I also think consolidating the major combat feats is helpful too. Not every single one but the main ones that generate the most frequent core fighting methods like TWF, Cleave and Vital Strike. Having major combat feats consolidated to scale with BAB is pretty significant.

    Consolidating is good, tweaking them as well is better. Vital Strike should really be usable in cases like at the end of a charge. Power Attack and Combat Expertise should let you throttle the maximum bonus/penalty if you want. I see no reason Improved Critical shouldn't be applied to a whole weapon category (why aren't you as good a shot with a shortbow as with a longbow). Also, having these feats work together in interesting ways would be good. For example, if you have Combat Reflexes, you can expend all your additional attacks of opportunity to use Vital Strike with your first AoO that round. Or maybe someone with both Dodge and Fleet can take an extra 5-ft step once per round when at attack misses them. As many have noted, power is only part of the issue with spells. Added flexibility of choices from everything spells can do is another. If a wizard can potentially have dozens of "just in case" tricks up his sleeve using magic, why shouldn't the 'feat class' (aka the fighter) have similar options and versatility with their class features?

    How do you feel about these feats?:

    Flash Cut: He can spend a stamina point to make an AoO against anyone that enters a space he threatens.

    Meditations of Harmony: Can spend stamina to gain a bonus to saves if a successful attack is made.

    Shadow of the Falcon: Can spend a

    ...

    considering how weak all that stuff was, i'm pretty sure you're suffering from the martials can't have nice things, sure it's useful, but that's the point.

    they're all pretty much condensed feat lines using stamina, and don't break the game in any way, even when used against you.


    kyrt-ryder wrote:

    If that's the case, then 90% of Barbarians and all Archers are supposedly overpowered.

    Take a look at the massive piles of HP on monsters. See those? Spellcasters skip them entirely, as a standard action.

    Giving Martials the ability to spend one move action and still actually use the power the game gave them breaks nothing. In fact it's only a small step in the right direction, but a step it is.

    Are you trying to make martials as powerful as casters or balance the game? You really can't do both without rewriting half the classes and restarting the CR system from scratch.

    Note: If 90% of barbarians choose one archetype, that means that archetype is far better then other options. The game should be balanced to maximize options, not limit it to specific builds only.


    I'm assuming the game was built on the premise of casters being casters. Therefore balancing martials to casters [and reigning in the absolute worst of the caster offenses] IS balancing the game.


    kyrt-ryder wrote:
    I'm assuming the game was built on the premise of casters being casters. Therefore balancing martials to casters [and reigning in the absolute worst of the caster offenses] IS balancing the game.

    The game was built on the CR system. Options are either powerful for their CR/ appropriate for their CR / Underpowered for their CR.

    Currently most martials work fairly well within the CR system. Gunslingers, Pounce Barbarians/druids, and some archers are overpowered for their CR. I would rather tone down these three options then rewrite everything else up to their power.

    Note: Ancient Black Dragon is one of my aliases. I think balancing the game requires bringing things into line with the CR system, not making everyone an optimized wizard. See my post above for fixing casters, and click on my name for more info on balancing the game.


    Fergie wrote:
    kyrt-ryder wrote:
    I'm assuming the game was built on the premise of casters being casters. Therefore balancing martials to casters [and reigning in the absolute worst of the caster offenses] IS balancing the game.

    The game was built on the CR system. Options are either powerful for their CR/ appropriate for their CR / Underpowered for their CR.

    Currently most martials work fairly well within the CR system. Gunslingers,Pounce Barbarians/druids, and some archers are overpowered for their CR. I would rather tone down these three options then rewrite everything else up to their power.

    Gunslingers are just weird, and a problem I bypass by using Wild West Era repeating firearms with stats comparable to bows.

    As for Pounce and Archers? Those are core facets of the game and far less broken than a well-played caster.

    So far as I can tell, the game was built assuming martials would stand still trading full attacks with their enemies. This seldom works out in practice, but explains the massive piles of HP on the monsters.


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    E6 is no solution. A level 6 fighter is not the realistic maximum.

    A fighter has to reach level 11 to make an enemy bleed with a particularly nasty blow.

    When I was 10 I too a month long summer program in foil. I was not at the peak of human achievement, nor was I a professional combatant. I learned to lunge. Level 6 is far below the peak of martial achievement.

    Having your spear go through someone requires BAB 11. Having it get caught on their ribs requires BAB 13.

    A sleeper hold requires BAB 8.

    Being able to stun someone on a particularly nasty hit requires BAB 17. This isn't even an improved version of something that can be done at a lower level. Knocking someone momentarily senseless as an incidental byproduct of hitting them really hard can't be done with a weapon until the same level wizards can learn wish.

    Level 6 isn't when wizards start to get unrealistic either. That happens when they learn color spray at level 1. Apart from the environmental damage not accounting for the abstract nature of hitpoints the level 20 fighter is more realistic than the level 1 wizard.

    E6 is just another way of saying martials shouldn't have nice things.


    Bandw2 wrote:
    Cerberus Seven wrote:
    Malwing wrote:
    Cerberus Seven wrote:
    Malwing wrote:

    I have been continuously recommending The Book of Martial Action I & II to use in conjunction with since before Unchained came out in case anyone thought Path of War replaced their martials instead of buffing the ones they had. I wonder if anyone tried it out. Or just thought about it. Or believes me or disbelieves me.

    I also think consolidating the major combat feats is helpful too. Not every single one but the main ones that generate the most frequent core fighting methods like TWF, Cleave and Vital Strike. Having major combat feats consolidated to scale with BAB is pretty significant.

    Consolidating is good, tweaking them as well is better. Vital Strike should really be usable in cases like at the end of a charge. Power Attack and Combat Expertise should let you throttle the maximum bonus/penalty if you want. I see no reason Improved Critical shouldn't be applied to a whole weapon category (why aren't you as good a shot with a shortbow as with a longbow). Also, having these feats work together in interesting ways would be good. For example, if you have Combat Reflexes, you can expend all your additional attacks of opportunity to use Vital Strike with your first AoO that round. Or maybe someone with both Dodge and Fleet can take an extra 5-ft step once per round when at attack misses them. As many have noted, power is only part of the issue with spells. Added flexibility of choices from everything spells can do is another. If a wizard can potentially have dozens of "just in case" tricks up his sleeve using magic, why shouldn't the 'feat class' (aka the fighter) have similar options and versatility with their class features?

    How do you feel about these feats?:

    Flash Cut: He can spend a stamina point to make an AoO against anyone that enters a space he threatens.

    Meditations of Harmony: Can spend stamina to gain a bonus to saves if a successful attack is made.

    Shadow

    ...

    OK, I have one for 'these are overpowered' and one for 'they aren't that powerful'.


    kyrt-ryder wrote:

    Gunslingers are just weird, and a problem I bypass by using Wild West Era repeating firearms with stats comparable to bows.

    Word! I'd like to leave gunslingers out of this discussion.

    kyrt-ryder wrote:
    As for Pounce and Archers? Those are core facets of the game and far less broken than a well-played caster.

    EVERYTHING is less broken then a well played caster. Pounce is for creatures with natural attacks. I think it is a mistake to give it to things other then animals. Archers are a little overpowered because of the ease of bypassing the drawbacks (cover/concealment) and ease of stacking damage bonuses.

    kyrt-ryder wrote:


    So far as I can tell, the game was built assuming martials would stand still trading full attacks with their enemies. This seldom works out in practice, but explains the massive piles of HP on the monsters.

    I'm not really seeing the massive hp you are talking about. For example, a group of 10th level characters taking on a CR 13 boss monster (APL+3 epic difficulty encounter) only needs to do 180. Seems pretty reasonable for 4-5 PC's to chip through in a handful of rounds.


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    Atarlost wrote:

    E6 is no solution. A level 6 fighter is not the realistic maximum.

    A fighter has to reach level 11 to make an enemy bleed with a particularly nasty blow.

    When I was 10 I too a month long summer program in foil. I was not at the peak of human achievement, nor was I a professional combatant. I learned to lunge. Level 6 is far below the peak of martial achievement.

    Having your spear go through someone requires BAB 11. Having it get caught on their ribs requires BAB 13.

    A sleeper hold requires BAB 8.

    Being able to stun someone on a particularly nasty hit requires BAB 17. This isn't even an improved version of something that can be done at a lower level. Knocking someone momentarily senseless as an incidental byproduct of hitting them really hard can't be done with a weapon until the same level wizards can learn wish.

    Level 6 isn't when wizards start to get unrealistic either. That happens when they learn color spray at level 1. Apart from the environmental damage not accounting for the abstract nature of hitpoints the level 20 fighter is more realistic than the level 1 wizard.

    E6 is just another way of saying martials shouldn't have nice things.

    E6 done right [or Pathfinder done right, to be honest] destroys all those ridiculous prerequisites and those feats get mostly condensed or eliminated as feats by turning them into normal things warriors can do.


    Fergie wrote:
    kyrt-ryder wrote:
    As for Pounce and Archers? Those are core facets of the game and far less broken than a well-played caster.
    EVERYTHING is less broken then a well played caster. Pounce is for creatures with natural attacks. I think it is a mistake to give it to things other then animals. Archers are a little overpowered because of the ease of bypassing the drawbacks (cover/concealment) and ease of stacking damage bonuses.

    I've yet to see Archers broken in actual play [and I tend to play with optimizers.] They do reliable damage yes, but it still takes 2-3 rounds to defeat an encounter. Even a two-handed weapon Leap Attack [using Pathfinder Power Attack], Shock Trooper Pounce is seldom a OHKO except against mook-class opponents.

    Quote:
    kyrt-ryder wrote:


    So far as I can tell, the game was built assuming martials would stand still trading full attacks with their enemies. This seldom works out in practice, but explains the massive piles of HP on the monsters.
    I'm not really seeing the massive hp you are talking about. For example, a group of 10th level characters taking on a CR 13 boss monster (APL+3 epic difficulty encounter) only needs to do 180. Seems pretty reasonable for 4-5 PC's to chip through in a handful of rounds.

    You use single boss monsters?

    Why???

    Any encounter I run typically has 3 or more main opponents [one might be a bit stronger than the others, or it might not] plus dozens of mooks.

    RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

    Fergie wrote:
    Word! I'd like to leave gunslingers out of this discussion.Pounce is for creatures with natural attacks. I think it is a mistake to give it to things other then animals.

    That's interesting because I always thought it was a mistake to give animals nicer combat tools than most martial classes can access.

    The cat gets to move and full attack. The wolf gets to deal damage and trip in one attack.

    The actual trained martials have to choose one or the other.

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