One simple fix I used for the Fighter Class was increasing their bonus feats to two per level [along with all good saves and more skill points, and all Weapon Training having the best value rather than a downward ladder]
Despite the massive backlash on the boards it worked out fairly well without overpowering it compared to Barbarians and Paladins. Doesn't do anything for their lack of narrative power [aside from making it easier to take non-combat-related supplementary feats with their level-based feats, such as Master Craftsman or Skill Focus or whatnot] but it certainly helps with their flexibility.
Without doing massive feat re-writes...that's probably the quickest and easiest way to get a balanced Tier 3 fighter class, in all honesty.
My fighter rewrite also ended up with 2 feats/level, alternating between martial and training feats, but I also did a feat rewrite for those feats.
he got to pick his good save, and had options to seriously boost his other saves (i.e. scaling Iron Will and feat rerolls, and highest physical stat to Fort/Reflex, highest mental to Will, defensive fighting w Expertise could affect saving throws, etc).
He had 2 skill points, but gained a skill pt/level every time bravery hit, so he ended up with 7/level at 18, and tied the ranger at 14.
I differentiated between the primary weapon group, and all other weapon groups, but I also made it easily possible to put any weapon you really wanted in the primary weapon group.
==Aelryinth
Here's my take on goodies for non-casting classes, without touching casting classes. Some apply to all classes though. Not all needs to be applied mind you.
1. Free Feats
The following feats are available to all characters who meet the prerequisites:
Power Attack
Agile Maneuver
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Shield Bash
Combat Expertise
Piranha Strike
Deadly Aim
Weapon Finesse
Vital Strike
2. Feats Trees Stacking with BAB
The following feats trees stack and are obtained as the player reaches the right BAB (note this doesn't necessarily work with house-rule 1, but I want to put the option out there):
Vital Strike
Improved Maneuvers
Two-Weapon Fighting
Step Up
Style Feat Trees
3. Stamina and Skills Unleashed
All non-casting classes get stamina and skills unleashed for free. Skills unleashed apply as the next category (5 ranks like 10 ranks, etc.).
4. Skill Points
All non-casting classes receive two more skill points.
5. Midnight Paths
All non-casting classes can pick a heroic path from the Midnight Campaign book.
Another alternative mentioned by another poster, which I kind of like, is granting mythic tiers, but I'd be mindful that the tiers be used to add versatility instead of focus.
If I were to touch casting classes, I'd look at the worst offending spells first, but it would also depend on the feel I'm aiming for.
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Most of the combat-oriented examples of how a caster is so much more powerful than a martial seem to assume that the caster has prepared for the combat(buffs in place, floating above the world with plenty of summons to defend him), is in a place of absolute security(his extra dimensional fortress), and has plenty of clones, and maybe a phylactery, in the event of his death.
Like most of the theoretical optimization stuff I've seen on these boards, it relies on massive "what-if" circumstances, and requires that the spell caster take the exact same precautions that you would.
First of all, it has already negated the fact that the spell caster (let's assume wizard) is going to be, or should be, a living creature in the game world. So unless we're talking about a Larloch styled recluse, that situation is suddenly thrown out. Let's look at our *actual* high level spell casters from fiction; Elminster, who despite being a high powered spellcaster actually went out and did things in person, carrying a handful of magic items. Szass Tam, who almost invariably throughout the War of the Zulkirs engaged in combat in person, and, in fact, is depicted as changing his rings, amulets, and bracers prior to the final battle, meaning that he wasn't prepared for combat prior.
so what do we have there? spellcasters who live lives, prepare their spells based on their day to day lives as opposed to exclusively preparing for combat, and are so self sure, so arrogant, that they go out into combat personally, rather than sending a simulacrum, or using their 99th iteration of Astral Projection. Wizards use the restroom, they take a break from studying their spellbooks and take a walk around the palisade, they prepare a bunch of Sending spells so they can chat with their other wizard friends, they turn into birds and go flying, because f*ck you they're wizards. And don't forget the Mage Lords of fiction. the arrogant, preening overlords. Vices are enormous weak spots, I think we can look to Hollywood and Washinton DC to see what power does to people in that regard, and Mage Lords of fiction tend to have a penchant for being killed by their intended lovers. Give the half orc barbarian a potion of disguise self and a corset, job done.
The assumption that they're all powerful is based on a combination of wizards' own assumption that they are all powerful, and the all too common power gaming shenanigans that produce things like the Mailman Sorcerer, but those assumptions should make them more vulnerable. People who are convinced that no one would be foolish enough to try to poison them eventually stop casting detect poison every time they want a drink of water.
Spell casters being broken has a very simple fix; Stop looking for ways to break them.
If your DM runs wizards as being recluses that live on their own demiplanes, locked in a massive throne room, behind thousands of wards and permanent scrying spells, peering at every corner of their lair with a thousand facsimile eyes searching for the slightest sign of an intruder, all spell slots devoted to combat, then your DM is an a$$hole who cares more about combat than about providing a roleplaying experience where NPCs and PCs actually live in the world, rather than existing only for the purpose of a fight no one will care about a week later.
if that's your wizard, then congratulations, you've successfully reduced what could have been a character to nothing more than a stat block and a gimmick to eliminate all of your vulnerabilities. Hope you have fun reducing what could be an entertaining and immersive hobby down to a mechanical grind for no better reason than so that your character can be "better" than everyone else's.
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I think you might be missing the point. The fact is that for any role a mundane martial can do, there is a full caster or 6th level caster that can fill that role about as well, fill it better, and do 100 other things as good or better than that martial. This largely applies to low magic classes as well (e.g. 4th level casters). 9th and 6th level casters can do most if not all of what they do, and do so many other things as well. Would you rather have a Fighter, or a pouncing wildshape Druid? Monk or Sacred Warfist? Rogue or Bard?
I think you might be missing the point. The fact is that for any role a mundane martial can do, there is a full caster or 6th level caster that can fill that role about as well, fill it better, and do 100 other things as good or better than that martial. This largely applies to low magic classes as well (e.g. 4th level casters). 9th and 6th level casters can do most if not all of what they do, and do so many other things as well. Would you rather have a Fighter, or a pouncing wildshape Druid? Monk or Sacred Warfist? Rogue or Bard?
No, it is you who is missing the point. The point is that this is a roleplaying game, not an MMO. You want to play the soldier gone adventuring? fighter. Want to play the nature loving shaman? Druid. Want to play the socialite and thief? rogue. want to play a devotee of your chosen god? Cleric, paladin, etc, depending on what type of character you're wanting to make.
It's a roleplaying game at its base, and that's going to color everything.
Teleport, for instance. why does it exist? to give players a way to move the entire party from place to place quickly. a group utility spell. It doesnt make sense to give it to the non spellcasters, so you give it to the spellcasters. the end. Want to get wizards/clerics/druids out of the front line martial role? get rid of the summon monster spells. Please, get rid of it, the rest of us hate celestial badgers, they're senseless fluff to begin with.
The mechanics of the classes exist to give character concepts the mechanical ability to fill their roles. Simply because a class has the potential to step into the role of another class does not mean that the player will do so. theoretically, the full casters can step into every role, but in 15 odd years of playing, i've yet to see one do so. players find their niche and integrate into the party. theoretical God builds try to be the best at everything.
mentioned earlier in the thread were ideas like giving rogues the ability to use contacts to get them anywhere quickly, to compensate for wizard's mobility. paizo started that thankfully, just didn't go far enough(Black Market Connections, Grand Hoax, etc).
If casters need a fix, it's to increase specialization. Go back to 3.5 prohibited classes, and pick a few more schools that can't go above 4th level spells. that sort of thing.
We have the mythic rules for mythology. Why, for that matter, should we assume the game will shift genres at all? The mythic rules do that too. We don't need to do it based on levels anymore.
We only need to lift the martials to around alchemist level and shovel problem magic over to mythic.
Actually, that's not too bad an idea.
I think it deserves its own thread though.
Thanks!
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So you don't think it is a problem when one player likes the image of a skilled master of two weapon fighting, the second wants to play a priest that smites people with a battleaxe, and the third wants to play a nature based person who bites people as a dinosaur, and when these people all show up at the table together the two weapon guy is barely keeping up with the other two in his specialty, and the other two can do piles of other things on top of just beating stuff to death. That's the problem the system has.
When you apply the logic of "it doesn't make sense to give them this", what you end up with is spellcasters who can do everything because it makes sense for them to because they have magic, and martials who can't do diddly other than hit things, because it doesn't make sense for them to be able to do magical things as a mundane(ish) class. But wait, casters still have limbs, so they can hit things too. And they have spells and class features that make them much better at it, because it makes sense. If they invest a couple of feats on top of it, they end up coming out on top of classes that have invested most of their resources into hitting things. Because it makes sense. Because magic.
As far as specialization goes, they really need to move both ends of the spectrum inward. The ideal situation is where party members have their niche that they are really good at, but most of the time the entire party is able to contribute meaningfully. Not the current situation where fighters and rogues are borderline useless outside of whatever they specialize in, and a party of full casters can get almost everything done by themselves but are sticking together for the scary force multiplication.
Like I said, I've never in 15 years seen that happen. I've seen TWF fighters with the Tempest PrC swinging their swords like mad, and dealing respectable damage, next to wildshaped druid, next to the spellcaster launching bolts of lightning and various other spells, and here's the really wild part; a group of roleplayers, none of whom power gamed, were able to laugh and have a good time. nobody stepped on each other's toes. the fighter killed his guys while the druid ate a few others, and the wizard didnt try to get into melee.
You want to eliminate some of the spells that step on other folk's toes? Knock, and Monstrous Physique and the like? that's the prerogative of the DM. Every spell, every weapon, every feat, it's all an optional rule, and the best way to keep wizards from dominating everything is twofold; players stop trying to be power gaming A-holes stepping on everyone else's toes, and the DMs, when they see it happen, simply put a stop to it. The end. the reworking that the system needs is very minor; toss a few minor options toward martials(such as the aforementioned networking feats/talents), and require spellcasters to specialize more. Specialty priests, for instance, were awesome. customized spell lists are great, the only reason they're not used any more is because it takes up too much paper in a rulebook.
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You might have not seen it happen.
I watched a rogue PC in my first campaign end up being a waste of space, because they were pretty much useless at everything besides making perception, knowledge and disable device checks.
I am currently GMing a party consisting of two full casters(witch and druid), a sacred huntmaster inquisitor and an unchained monk. In every single fight the monk has either a) been unable to meaningfully participate in any function other than maybe coup de grace duty, or b) been forced to pull out or beg for aid within a round of reaching melee because they got badly hurt. The two full casters force me to (try to) construct encounters that can't be *completely* obliterated by entangle and slumber spam. The inquisitor I can pretty much trust to handle themselves without me putting any forethought into how they operate when I design encounters. I am tempted to start making most fights happen in small spaces just so the monk can actually get a full attack without getting ground down by reach weapons and archer fire before actually getting to participate. Do you see the difference between them. Two tier 1s, a tier 3, and a low tier 4/high tier 5. The tier 1s I have difficulty doing anything about without specifically targeting them, the tier 3 I can not worry about because they probably won't either overpower the encounter or feel useless - They are going to be pretty good pretty much all the time. The tier 4/5 can barely get a full attack in without being in danger of getting dropped. Disturbingly enough, the monk player is actually the most mechanically competent and experienced out of all my players. This is the sort of stuff that I talk about when I say "That's the problem the system has". And I am by no means the only one who has seen this.
This isn't even high level stuff either. FFS, the players in my current game are level 4. I don't even want to imagine what it is going to be like at level 10 or so, when the druid will be running around as a pouncing leopard and dropping wall of thorns, the witch will be constantly flying and dominating people, the inquisitor will be buffing themselves and their pet into murder machines while being a skill monkey with spells, while the monk gets spring attack and a ki power that he won't use because he doesn't have the points to waste.
it seems like the combat is a ranged game; reach weapons and archers, vs spell casters and (i assume) an inquisitor who uses a bow or crossbow. not really a surprise that the monk is getting shredded against that. that said I don't know the full circumstances, so I can hardly respond to that.
On topic: "X and Y spam" seems to sum up the problem in combat, yes? Would limited spells per day not solve that to an extent? with Elite array, the druid should have 4 castings of entangle, if that's the only spell he prepares in his 1st level slots, yes? would multiple encounters per day, varying their demands (1 fight at range, 1 fight very close, 1 fight a mix, some skill checks to overcome, places that utility spells are useful) not help solve that? the moment that spellcasters have to diversify, that ability to spam spells goes completely out the window.
I'm playing a 4th level necromancer wizard currently, typical spells: 1st level: mage armor, enlarge person, grease, ray of sickening, +Repair Undead, 2nd level: Blindness/Deafness, Command Undead, Mirror Image, +Scare.
Can't spam any save or lose spells, only have 4 overtly offensive spells, none of which can end a combat in and of themselves, 2 defensive spells, 1 buff, 1 utility(command undead, very useful for our setting) and 1 buff for our barbarian. We typically have 3-5 combats in an adventuring day, ranging from small encounters with a handful of 1HD warriors, to fights against multiple trolls. that sort of unpredictable, varied encounter, combined with long adventuring days, forces spellcasters to play it safe and save their spells.
I see the difference between your characters; flat line usefulness in the monk, rounds/day damage and minor casting from the inquisitor, and a handful of nukes in the pockets of the casters. what I also(given my lack of specific knowledge of your game) see, is spellcasters being allowed to dump all of those nukes in a given combat. I mentioned a few pages back a few houserules I use in my games; forcing material components to be used, and requiring 1 hour per spell level to prepare spells/regain spell slots. Spells are good as nukes, they're fun as nukes, and they're really easy to take away/limit.
Design Manager
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I've seen it happen in a group where the rogue's player tossed their dice aside and declared that it wouldn't matter what they did, the 'caster brigade' would do something that made him feel useless. This in a group that didn't believe what I'd said about the relative power of full casters, because I'd been the only person playing one and I went out of my way to make a character who'd be useful at the level of optimisation they played at. Which was hard. Then someone else had a go with a conjurer wizard, tried to be as helpful as possible, and the other players (apart from me; I ran a Druid) found that after about 6th level they were useful to carry loot and might sometimes get to deal with minor problems that weren't worth the casters' time and effort. And they recognised the situation, and didn't like it at all.You might have not seen it happen.
I watched a rogue PC in my first campaign end up being a waste of space, because they were pretty much useless at everything besides making perception, knowledge and disable device checks.
I've also seen martials get outclassed by casters at the thing they're supposed to be good at, completely by accident. No one was being a douchebag or intentionally messing up anyone's game.
The following scenario actually happened with one of my groups. Player 1 had never played a TTRPG before, but had played a lot of World of Warcraft. Player 2 had played Pathfinder and several editions of D&D.
Player 1: *thinks to self* So I'm going to start that Pathfinder game this weekend, I better get my character made. I really like my night elf rogue in WoW, and I see that I can play an elf rogue here too... Sneak Attack gives me up to 10d6 extra damage on my attacks and this Uncanny Dodge thing makes it so I can't be flanked, looks like I can build a great damage-dealing machine with this!
*Player 1 calls GM, lets him know she'll be playing an elf rogue*.
Player 2: "Yo buddy, what's our new player going to be running for our game Saturday?"
GM: "She said she's going to play an elf rogue."
Player 2: "Skill-monkey, huh? I'm going to play a druid and his big cat companion so I can tear face. The cat might be able to help her flank so she can get some sneak attacks in too."
Player 1 thought she was going to be the damage machine, but she barely kept up with the cat, and then only when the cat was helping her out by providing flanks and not pouncing as often. Because much of the adventure took place in natural environments, the druid actually was much more useful out of combat as well, with decent and relevant skills and a huge array of useful spells. Player 1 was disappointed in how boring and under-powered her rogue was, but she was willing to try again a couple months later when that game ran it's course. This time, she had a plan.
Player 1: *thinks to self* Okay, my bad last time, I guess rogues just aren't as good at combat in Pathfinder as they are in WoW. Live and learn. I really want to be good at fighting though, so I'm going to take the obvious choice and play a Fighter! With weapon training, weapon specialization, and all these feats, I bet I'll be a real damage monster! Plus armor training says I can run around in heavy armor at full speed, so I'll be a real mobile juggernaut charging around the battlefield! A halberd seems like it'd be a pretty badass weapon....
*Player 1 calls GM, tells him she'll be playing a halberd-wielding fighter who wears full plate*
Player 2: "Yo! What's our campadre' thinking about running for the new game? I have a couple ideas I'm trying to decide between."
GM: "She says she's playing a Fighter who uses full plate and a halberd."
Player 2: "Lock-down tank, huh? She probably won't be moving around much, so I better play something with mobility and some punch so I can heard the baddies towards her. I'm going to go with this idea I had for a Summoner and eidolon that are like Odin and Sleipneir in Final Fantasy 7. I'll grab a trait to get proficiency with a lance and my horsolon will trample and bite enemies that I charge. Plus, I'll have lots of good buffs and can pull out some extra critters or crowd control if we need it."
You can probably guess how that one played out. Player 2 once again accidentally dominated the exact role that Player 1 thought she was going to cover, and not only was he doing that better, but his toolbox of spells and eidolon companion meant he was also contributing significantly out of combat, always doing something useful in combat even if he couldn't reach an enemy (and if he couldn't get to an enemy, she definitely couldn't), and just being a generally superior adventurer. Now, eventually the two of them got a bit better about communicating not just what type of character they were playing, but also what role they wanted to play, and Player 2 helped Player 1 hone her system mastery a bit, but the point was that those martials were getting completely and utterly hosed at their own game by the full casters, who weren't even doing it on purpose and who were contributing much more significantly in other areas as well. Martial/caster disparity isn't something that only happens when one person is being a jerk, it's something that often naturally occurs without any malice or intent at all, just as an innate result of the disparities between the tools martial characters are given and those given to casters.
Most of the combat-oriented examples of how a caster is so much more powerful than a martial seem to assume that the caster has prepared for the combat(buffs in place, floating above the world with plenty of summons to defend him), is in a place of absolute security(his extra dimensional fortress), and has plenty of clones, and maybe a phylactery, in the event of his death.
Like most of the theoretical optimization stuff I've seen on these boards, it relies on massive "what-if" circumstances, and requires that the spell caster take the exact same precautions that you would.
First of all, it has already negated the fact that the spell caster (let's assume wizard) is going to be, or should be, a living creature in the game world. So unless we're talking about a Larloch styled recluse, that situation is suddenly thrown out. Let's look at our *actual* high level spell casters from fiction; Elminster, who despite being a high powered spellcaster actually went out and did things in person, carrying a handful of magic items. Szass Tam, who almost invariably throughout the War of the Zulkirs engaged in combat in person, and, in fact, is depicted as changing his rings, amulets, and bracers prior to the final battle, meaning that he wasn't prepared for combat prior.
so what do we have there? spellcasters who live lives, prepare their spells based on their day to day lives as opposed to exclusively preparing for combat, and are so self sure, so arrogant, that they go out into combat personally, rather than sending a simulacrum, or using their 99th iteration of Astral Projection. Wizards use the restroom, they take a break from studying their spellbooks and take a walk around the palisade, they prepare a bunch of Sending spells so they can chat with their other wizard friends, they turn into birds and go flying, because f*ck you they're wizards. And don't forget the Mage Lords of fiction. the arrogant, preening overlords. Vices are enormous weak spots, I think we can look to Hollywood and...
sorry oldsaxhleel, I keep telling people not to argue about how a caster would kill a martial because it's not the point. a bard is a better martial than a fighter, because he can also assist the team in more than fighting and still be a pretty competent fighter. a wizard can teleport a party to save several days of travel, a martial can... hopefully buy everyone a mount...? it's simply that martials don;t have the same narrative power casters do.
No, it is you who is missing the point. The point is that this is a roleplaying game, not an MMO. You want to play the soldier gone adventuring?
fighter. Want to play the nature loving shaman? Druid. Want to play the socialite and thief?rogue. want to play a devotee of your chosen god? Cleric, paladin, etc, depending on what type of character you're wanting to make.
Another possible way to bring the fighter up (someone mentioned gestalting the rogue and fighter before in this thread) would perhaps be to gestalt it with the sohei.
I also like them having the brawler's martial flexibility.
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Like I said, I've never in 15 years seen that happen.
I've never in 43 years been to China.
However, I don't go around claiming that China doesn't exist, or that the UN should have no seat for this theoretical "China" -- or that the U.S., when considering foreign policy and trade, should ignore the possibility of its existence.
Conversely, if you've made a few trips to China, you shouldn't assume your experience there is the norm.
Heh, if we're looking at world population, being in China is FAR more of a norm than being in North America or Europe.
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Here's my take on goodies for non-casting classes, without touching casting classes. Some apply to all classes though. Not all needs to be applied mind you.
1. Free Feats
The following feats are available to all characters who meet the prerequisites:
Power Attack
Agile Maneuver
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Shield Bash
Combat Expertise
Piranha Strike
Deadly Aim
Weapon Finesse
Vital Strike2. Feats Trees Stacking with BAB
The following feats trees stack and are obtained as the player reaches the right BAB (note this doesn't necessarily work with house-rule 1, but I want to put the option out there):
Vital Strike
Improved Maneuvers
Two-Weapon Fighting
Step Up
Style Feat Trees
I don't mean to sound judgmental, but you realize what you did here is make it even easier for casters to take over from non-casters, because now they don't even have to spend the feats to get basic competency in fighting styles? Every morphing caster has Weapon Finesse and Power Attack already...what more could they want? And Vital Strike, scaling, to boot!
This kind of stuff is exactly akin to giving casters multiple attacks, and better BAB, the first nails in the coffin of the move from 1E to 3E.
What I want to see from you now is: what free stuff that casters get are you giving to the melee side of the equation to balance out stealing better BAB; more attacks; and tons of free combat feats?
In other words, what free stuff are you giving the warriors so they can do the job of the casters, and not need them around?
As an example: All classes have a minimum caster level = to the inverse of their BAB (good bab = 1/2 caster, 3/4 = 3/4, poor = good caster). IF they already get a caster level, none of the following apply.
They may pick any spell list, but must meet any alignment defaults for the list (i.e. if druid or paladin).
At level 2, they get to pick 3 cantrips or the equivalent.
They follow the spell acquisition paradigm of the Ranger/paladin in terms of how fast they get spells, i.e. level 4+.
However, there are the following changes:
They do not acquire spells, they acquire spell like abilities. They can pick the spells from the list, including their bonus spells, and use each one 3 t/day.
This is not hampered by armor.
The ability score they use to determine their bonus spells is whatever ability score they wish.
If they get bonus spells via ability scores higher then 4th level, they may break the 5th+ level slots down as they wish (2+3, 4+1, 1+1+1+1+1) as additional SLA's.
They may choose the same SLA twice to increase uses of the SLA.
When they gain access to a new level of spells, they may alter the SLA's they have already taken to compensate for new spells.
They may take feats that metamagic SLA's. By default, this generates additional uses of that SLA that have the metamagic attached.
They are considered to have the spell list they've chosen for purpose of using magic items.
Their spellcraft = caster level as normal, and qualifies them for Item Creation feats. However, they may use Craft Ranks instead of spellcraft for making items of the appropriate kind, and do not have to meet spell perquisites if they do so.
Caster levels for this ability and from caster levels do stack.
You can choose different classes to have different spell progressions (i.e. your rogue levels tied to bard, your fighter levels to paladin, and your gunslinger levels to ranger). The combined caster levels still stack, but you would have multiple lower level SLA's instead of higher ones.
This is the kind of thing you are doing TO the melees - taking away their basic low level toys and giving them to other classes who don't need them and who it is inappropriate to do so.
Turning around and giving loads of the minor, basic abilities of spellcasters to the non-casters only seems fair in return.
==Aelryinth
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Conversely, if you've made a few trips to China, you shouldn't assume your experience there is the norm.Heh, if we're looking at world population, being in China is FAR more of a norm than being in North America or Europe.I'll have to correct the emphasis ...
Conversely, if you've made a few trips to China, you shouldn't assume your experience there is the norm.
yeah but if you visit a town and there's poor drinking water there, it doesn't mean you shouldn't try to see if you could help the situation, even if it's only a problem for that one town.
then when you find out it's just caused by a system under the Chinese government, you'd rather have the Chinese government change than try to make a whole new government for that town.
Conversely, if you've made a few trips to China, you shouldn't assume your experience there is the norm.
If gaming experience in which a martial-caster disparity clearly exists is a trip to China, I've made a whole lot more than a few brief visits. And when my experience also matches any number of other peoples', who have also spent a lot of time there, it's kind of silly to keep denying it exists. If you, on the other hand, go to the little version of China at Epcot Center -- that's not the actual country.
If gaming experience in which a martial-caster disparity clearly exists is a trip to China, I've made a whole lot more than a few brief visits.
Which changes nothing. So have I.
You haven't, though, by your own admission. Maybe you've been to Chinatown, or even to India, but that's not the same thing, and it's not grounds to maintain that the actual country of China is a myth.
Conversely, if you've made a few trips to China, you shouldn't assume your experience there is the norm.Heh, if we're looking at world population, being in China is FAR more of a norm than being in North America or Europe.I'll have to correct the emphasis ...
Conversely, if you've made a few trips to China, you shouldn't assume your experience there is the norm.
yeah but if you visit a town and there's poor drinking water there, it doesn't mean you shouldn't try to see if you could help the situation, even if it's only a problem for that one town.
then when you find out it's just caused by a system under the Chinese government, you'd rather have the Chinese government change than try to make a whole new government for that town.
And the local government would much rather you fix it for them and take the credit themselves then handle it themselves, saying people should step up and volunteer as part of their social responsibilities, while we set back and reap your taxes? And if we/the people don't like your results, its not our fault and we still get to keep the taxes?
And no, you don't get to charge any taxes for your work, either, because that would mean infringing on our government? If you get to keep a fee, its because we graciously let you and can stop you at any time?
Because, y'know, that IS kinda how things work over there. With lots of nepotism and corruption tossed on top.
==Aelryinth
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I think we have had the answer for the original question for a while now. The solution is powerful abilities exclusive to martials.
The problem is what form they should take and what exactly they should do.
The easiest way to deal with it without adding or disrupting the game is as feats. The problem with that is that feats are not exclusive. Even with BAB restrictions partial casters can still benefit from them. So we'd have to add something that only martials can get or find away for martial feats to be more exclusive.
Figuring out what they should do is also tricky. We could 'just give them spells' or effectively just give them spells but defeats the point since we have partial casters already. We want martials to be basically superhuman at late levels but so far I have not seen what that means mechnically whether it's permament or temporary stat boosts, self buffing, extreme bonuses on skill checks or what. No one has really responds to the people saying just use Path of War or similar products to instead reiterate the depth and nature of the problem than addressing whether or not these options are actual solutions.
I'd say that path of war is a partial solution, as it gives non-stabbing abilities. Like flight, charm monster, healing, burrowing, scent, teleportation, etc. It helps a lot when it comes to the mid-level stuff.
One thing to add; I've seen Spheres of Power thrown around including when I did it. Is replacing magic wholesale a solution? All things considered it doesn't seem that hard to do in regards to Spheres of Power and its pretty brief and intuitive and far more theme-reaching in fewer pages. Also most of the views on spheres is that its more balanced, does that mean magic is not the problem but how magic works is?
You know the mage slayer feat from 3.5 did exactly that, right?
And oh, how the casters HOWLED.
And worse with Pierce Magical Defenses and Pierce Magical Concealment.
==Aelryinth
You know the mage slayer feat from 3.5 did exactly that, right?
And oh, how the casters HOWLED.
And worse with Pierce Magical Defenses and Pierce Magical Concealment.==Aelryinth
Since I wasn't really around for 3.5, mind giving a list of all the things you can think of that was 'unfair' to casters in 3.5. That might be worth investigating.
Here's my take on goodies for non-casting classes, without touching casting classes. Some apply to all classes though. Not all needs to be applied mind you.
1. Free Feats
The following feats are available to all characters who meet the prerequisites:
Power Attack
Agile Maneuver
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Shield Bash
Combat Expertise
Piranha Strike
Deadly Aim
Weapon Finesse
Vital Strike2. Feats Trees Stacking with BAB
The following feats trees stack and are obtained as the player reaches the right BAB (note this doesn't necessarily work with house-rule 1, but I want to put the option out there):
Vital Strike
Improved Maneuvers
Two-Weapon Fighting
Step Up
Style Feat Trees
I don't mean to sound judgmental, but you realize what you did here is make it even easier for casters to take over from non-casters, because now they don't even have to spend the feats to get basic competency in fighting styles? Every morphing caster has Weapon Finesse and Power Attack already...what more could they want? And Vital Strike, scaling, to boot!
This kind of stuff is exactly akin to giving casters multiple attacks, and better BAB, the first nails in the coffin of the move from 1E to 3E.
What I want to see from you now is: what free stuff that casters get are you giving to the melee side of the equation to balance out stealing better BAB; more attacks; and tons of free combat feats?
In other words, what free stuff are you giving the warriors so they can do the job of the casters, and not need them around?
As an example: All classes have a minimum caster level = to the inverse of their BAB (good bab = 1/2 caster, 3/4 = 3/4, poor = good caster). IF they already get a caster level, none of the following apply.
They may pick any spell list, but must meet any alignment defaults for the list (i.e. if druid or paladin).
At level 2, they get to pick 3 cantrips or the equivalent.
They follow the spell acquisition paradigm of the Ranger/paladin in...
Thanks for your comments Aelryinth. I agree with you that open access can perhaps lead to the perception of giving away certain toys. Yet, at the same time, what I failed to mention, only in a subsequent post, is that I would also likely give fighters, at least, the brawler's martial flexibility.
Combined, free feats, stacking feet trees, and martial flex, would open tremendously the number of options for those classes. I think you mentioned that they don't need more damage output, but more ways to contribute.
Associated with these changes, I would add the stamina mechanics, as well as the skills unlocked mechanics (possibly granting rank 10 abilities for 5 ranks, and so forth, as they are not that powerful). These two features would go a long way towards improving possibilities to contribute.
The last feature I mentioned was the Midnight Campaign heroic paths. I'm not sure if you've seen them. They have several themes (at least a dozen) which grant for each level something, ranging from a bonus to an attribute to a special ability or a spell-like ability. Those paths I would give at least to the non-casting classes.
That last contribution clearly gives something new to non-casting classes, while the previous ones expand the existing options.
If one wanted to provide some free feats only to certain classes, then you could make them as 'basic training', but I've seen how certain archetypes have become classic dips for a few nice things... Free feats matter only when you can take advantage of them by moving further down the feat tree. Casters and partial casters don't get the BAB as fast, so they'll get some of those things, but later. I'm not sure whether it would make toe-stepping much more than it currently is, compared to how much it would give to the non-casting classes.
Anyways, I'm open to discuss this. This is in no way settled in my mind!
I think we have had the answer for the original question for a while now. The solution is powerful abilities exclusive to martials.
The problem is what form they should take and what exactly they should do.
The easiest way to deal with it without adding or disrupting the game is as feats. The problem with that is that feats are not exclusive. Even with BAB restrictions partial casters can still benefit from them. So we'd have to add something that only martials can get or find away for martial feats to be more exclusive.
Figuring out what they should do is also tricky. We could 'just give them spells' or effectively just give them spells but defeats the point since we have partial casters already. We want martials to be basically superhuman at late levels but so far I have not seen what that means mechnically whether it's permament or temporary stat boosts, self buffing, extreme bonuses on skill checks or what. No one has really responds to the people saying just use Path of War or similar products to instead reiterate the depth and nature of the problem than addressing whether or not these options are actual solutions.
Yes, that seems to be a common suggestion.
It's also a big, big, BIG project, and when you're done, you have hundreds of pages of house rules and you're not really playing Pathfinder anymore - heck, you might not even be able to run a typical 4-man party (fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard) through any of the APs without extensive modification to all the encounters.
At that point, we're talking about a whole new game. Which, by the way, might be really cool!
But I'm more interested in somewhat less sweeping and game-changing fixes that balance the classes against each other AND against the existing body of material Paizo has published. Hopefully, while creating only dozens of pages of house rules. Or less.
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Mage Slayer line was the big one. No Def casting, always the AoO. BIG downside...you caster level was decreased by 4 for each feat in this line. Horrors, casters couldn't/wouldn't use the feats!
Pierce Magical Concealment - ignore miss chances from magical spells, and the effects of mirror Image.
Pierce Magic Defenses - Ignore any spell effect (not magic items) that grant you an AC bonus, and dispel them with a normal attack using a standard action. What really pissed THIS group off was it affected any polymorph spell that granted an AC bonus, including NAt AC, OR anything that granted a stat bonus to AC!
There were two Opportunist feats, I don't remember the precise names. They variously triggered when magic items were used, when supernatural abilities were used, and when swift/quickened abilities were used. The names are on my Lockdown Fighter build on the WoTC boards, I don't have it available atm. I can look them up later. I know Supernatural Opportunist was one of them.
The original Stand Still feat - when an AoO was triggered, make the hit, deal no damage, but the opponent had to make a Reflex save = to 10+ damage or be locked in place.
combined with
Thicket Of Blades - Crusader Stance, ALL MOVEMENT PROVOKES. 5' steps, everything. BIng, Lockdown. You're not going anywhere. True battlefield control from a melee.
Combined with
Finishing Sweep - If someone hasn't moved since last round, get an AoO on them
and
Hold the Line - if someone is charging you, get an AoO when they ENTER a square you threaten, then you just Stand Still them and push them back to their original square, out of reach of you.
mix with the 3.5e Fighter ability that allowed you to give up all your iteratives to for your attacks to deal double damage at higher levels, and all your AoO's did double damage, and you have a Lockdown build.
There was a Ghost Blade or somesuch ability that let you hit incorps.
The Magebane enhancement worked against ANY creature with an arcane caster ability. Since all SLA's are arcane unless noted otherwise, that meant almost all higher level creatures. Cue mass use of this Bane.
Prot/Evil making you immune to charms/compulsions is an oldie and goodie. Mind Blank used to provide that blanket immunity to all e/c spells AND divinations. So did AMulets vs Det/Location (and were cheap) and Rings of Mind Shielding.
Spellbattle Rings used to allow you to sense spellcasting within like 180 feet, and turn a spell back on the caster 1-3 times a day, I forget (used to be once/round in 1e).
I seem to recall a feat that let you dimensionally lock a creature, but it escapes me atm.
There was a Dispelling enhancement, +5 cost, that dispelled Greater Magic with every attack at your character level. That was pretty cool, too.
==========
One of the things 3.5 did was make it MUCH more expensive to get immunity to something then previous editions. Especially divination effects. Greenstone amulets, rings of mind shielding and amulets vs det/loc were cheap and not hard to come by.
No longer!
There was a first level psionic ability that made you immune to GAZE ATTACKS! (steadfast gaze). awesome.
Wear an armband of telstang - immune to any effect that transformed the body! (polymorph, petrification, etc).
and so forth and so on.
One way to control magic is to bring back cheap ways to protect against the most egregious spells easily.
I mean, seriously, an amulet of non-detection is USELESS. It doesn't even give the 'self-caster' bonus to the person wearing it, which means it fails to work 50% of the time against a caster of the same level it was made at, and only gets worse with level.
Mind Blank now costs like 70k to get it on a helm, or something.
Ugh, ugh, ugh.
==Aelryinth
I googled Mage Slayer and came up with these feats. I'm thinking of converting them to Pathfinder.
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One thing to add; I've seen Spheres of Power thrown around including when I did it. Is replacing magic wholesale a solution? All things considered it doesn't seem that hard to do in regards to Spheres of Power and its pretty brief and intuitive and far more theme-reaching in fewer pages. Also most of the views on spheres is that its more balanced, does that mean magic is not the problem but how magic works is?
It's absolutely how magic works that makes it a ridiculous solution to every problem.
A point-based system like Psionics or Spheres of Power, where you need to invest in your spells to get them to be as strong as they can be helps lower the number of huge spell effects you can throw around in day. Especially since using your lower-level utility powers can reduce that amount, instead of leaving it completely untouched.
SoP is (whether through design or a happy accident) roughly T3, and Psionics pushes into T2 (though is still mostly T3). Using either option to replace normal spellcasters brings the general level of "I've got a spell for that!" problem-solving down a good bit.
Those aren't official feats, they are homebrew. I think that's Frank and K's stuff.
Be careful of it. I'm not saying its overpowered, I'm just saying be careful.
The original Mage SLayer feat is Here: http://dndtools.pw/feats/complete-arcane--55/mage-slayer--1818/
with links to the other two.
All three of those feats were from COmplete Arcane, and should be quoted that way.
==Aelryinth
Complete Modern handles the worst parts of spellcasting by restricting to level 5 spells. Sure, you can eventually get teleport, and its awesome...but it ain't Wish or simulacarum.
So your caster level would go up, and your # of spells castable, but you'd still be stuck with level 5 spells tops.
==Aelryinth
@Aelryinth - and Death Ward gave immunity to SoD spells not a +4 bonus.
Heh, 3,5 was really fun for non-casters compared to PF.
I'm also sure that Paul Bunyon, leader in the Papineau Rebellion, was not a hundred feet tall, didn't have a big blue ox, and so forth. That's kind of the point. Folk tales -- and fantasy -- are not limited by what really happened or could happen.
Whether or not such a man ever existed as a part of said rebellion is also an unverified claim. I'll admit it's an interesting theory, and certainly far more more plausible than the folk-tale we heard as children, but as of this writing, has not been confirmed as historical fact.
I'm quite the history buff myself, but as exciting as these stories are to think about, it's important to remember that "theory more plausible than obvious myth" does not necessarily equal "what actually happened" unless we get further evidence/corroboration that backs up said claims.
It's like the theory that if someone like King Arthur ever existed, he was likely a Roman commander or something, and didn't wear plate-armor because that would't have been invented until centuries later. He certainly wasn't made king by the will of strange women lying on their backs in ponds handing out swords because that's no basis for a system of government!
Well, you still get the main part:
The subject is immune to energy drain and any negative energy effects, including channeled negative energy.
But, yes, Soulfire Armor to get Death Ward was standard gear for high level characters because of that. You needed those immunities!
Add in periapts vs poison and of Health, and you were doing pretty good.
if you read 1e Red Wizards, all those Protection scrolls you used to be able to find to get immunity to stuff came out as spells. That was pretty redical at the time, too.
Volo's Guide to All Things Magical had some awesome 'basic magic' stuff in there. You could get immune to curses, being set on fire, petrify and polymorph, save bonuses, fire resistance, etc, and they didn't even need to be enchanted items!
Of course, you also had monstrosities like the SPell Sash, and the Girdle that guy in Deepingdale wore. Ugh!
===Aelryinth