Collapsing Bridge: Examine or Search?


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

This question came up over on Board Game Geek by user HitmanN. I don't have my cards, but the poster verified the wording on the location. Essentially, the Collapsing Bridge tells you to banish all the boons in the location deck, but doesn't use examine or search. So should the remaining banes be shuffled or returned in the exact order they were in?

My gut says this is a "search" situation for 2 reasons:
1. Otherwise, you actually gain some knowledge about the order of the banes. (As Jeff Thornsen in the BGG thread notes.)
2. You are looking through the whole deck, which matches up with searching.

But I thought it was worth posting here.

Thanks.


I'd go with "examine" mostly because shuffling the deck have lot bigger chance of ending up being beneficial to players [despite banishing boons] then just returning cards back in order they were... and I can't see bridge collapsing being beneficial to players.

I guess knowing what the Boon:Bane ratio at the location might help figuring out what the intent behind the card text is.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Until answered by Vic in FAQ, I would say player's choice (between reshuffling or not) because it's the default when a rule isn't given.
But that's just my view.

Also I like it when players have a choice... creates a debate around the table...

Adventure Card Game Designer

Noted. We are talking.


Ripe wrote:

I'd go with "examine" mostly because shuffling the deck have lot bigger chance of ending up being beneficial to players [despite banishing boons] then just returning cards back in order they were... and I can't see bridge collapsing being beneficial to players.

I guess knowing what the Boon:Bane ratio at the location might help figuring out what the intent behind the card text is.

I have to admit, I worked on the same 'unlikely to help players' idea and came up with the exact opposite assumption - returning cards in order means players know exactly what's coming and when


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
The_Napier wrote:


I have to admit, I worked on the same 'unlikely to help players' idea and came up with the exact opposite assumption - returning cards in order means players know exactly what's coming and when

Isn't it exactly what happens when a bridge collapse? All the good stuff end up drowned down below, but at least you get to see the Troll that was hiding under the bridge way before you'll encounter it (by the time you get pass that valley, you gonna have spot everything on the other side).

Just making fun...


The_Napier wrote:
Ripe wrote:

I'd go with "examine" mostly because shuffling the deck have lot bigger chance of ending up being beneficial to players [despite banishing boons] then just returning cards back in order they were... and I can't see bridge collapsing being beneficial to players.

I guess knowing what the Boon:Bane ratio at the location might help figuring out what the intent behind the card text is.

I have to admit, I worked on the same 'unlikely to help players' idea and came up with the exact opposite assumption - returning cards in order means players know exactly what's coming and when

Failing a check and having bridge collapse should be a penalty, not a benefit and yet, other then removing of boons [which may or may not be useful] I don't see much of a penalty in failing that check. In fact, failing that check is greatly beneficial to players.

Let us list benefits:
- you find out if there is a Villain at that location [that alone make banishing boons worthwhile]
- you learn exactly which Monsters and/or Barriers remain in location deck with Villain/Henchman
- removing Boons also mean reduction in number of Explores needed to clear out the Location [in case it's used in scenario where Henchman don't automatically give chance to close a location]

Those are benefits that players get no matter what. So the question is, what is more rewarding:
- knowing the order in which Banes arrive
- having a chance to put Villain/Henchman on top of location deck

I'd say that giving them a chance to put Villain/Henchman on top after you already reduced number of Explores needed on location is a greater benefit then simply knowing order in which Banes arrive.


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Ripe wrote:
I'd say that giving them a chance to put Villain/Henchman on top after you already reduced number of Explores needed on location is a greater benefit then simply knowing order in which Banes arrive.

But it's a random shuffle to an already random deck. You're just as likely to move a Villain/Henchman from the top to the bottom as to move it from the bottom to the top.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I'd say that whether it is a benefit or not will depend. And since the die roll that triggers the collapse isn't something you can influence, it doesn't really matter too much whether it is a benefit or not. Yes, knowing if the villain was there could be huge. But, for me at least, it would crush me to see that boon that I've long desired and never had a chance to encounter banished from the location deck before I could get to it.

Paizo Employee Contributor

Hawkmoon269 wrote:
But, for me at least, it would crush me to see that boon that I've long desired and never had a chance to encounter banished from the location deck before I could get to it.

But that happens every time you close a location and put the cards that were still at that location back in the box, right?


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Yes. My heart breaks quite often in this game. Seeing the boon I really want banished is often preceded by Calthaer saying "Come on, it isn't like card X is going to be in there." We then all watch as card X is there and banished.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

It does. Hawkmoon is a glutton for punishment, and our group-run through Runelords was punctuated by cries of dismay.

But last time I was crying with dismay when Centipede Venom was lost to us.

EDIT: haha NINJAED!!!

Paizo Employee Contributor

When I put stuff from a closed location back in the box, the other players sometimes ask whether we "lost out" on anything good. They've learned I usually respond with only "no, nothing good," or "you don't want to know the answer."

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

The answer is search.

Note that this means even after you've banished the boons, you'll still need to attempt the roll at the end of your turns there to determine whether or not you need to shuffle the deck. (Of course, as long as you have no idea what order the cards are in, I won't tell anybody if you decide to skip that roll. But if, for example, somebody examined cards in that deck, or a random card was added to that deck from the box, you should attempt the roll every turn until it's shuffled again.)


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Ohhh.... tricky.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Vic, can you add an automatic deck shuffling machine from Vegas in the Mummy's Mask yet to come box...

Just an idea...
:-)


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Frencois wrote:

Vic, can you add an automatic deck shuffling machine from Vegas in the Mummy's Mask yet to come box...

Just an idea...
:-)

This. So much this :)

In a 2-player, 6-char game, set up times often go over half-hour. You shuffle 2 bane decks, 6 boon decks, 6 character decks, and then you need to deal and shuffle 8 location decks... Sometimes it's enough to make us decide we'll just postpone the PACG for 'another night'...


Longshot11 wrote:
Frencois wrote:

Vic, can you add an automatic deck shuffling machine from Vegas in the Mummy's Mask yet to come box...

Just an idea...
:-)

This. So much this :)

In a 2-player, 6-char game, set up times often go over half-hour. You shuffle 2 bane decks, 6 boon decks, 6 character decks, and then you need to deal and shuffle 8 location decks... Sometimes it's enough to make us decide we'll just postpone the PACG for 'another night'...

I've gotten into the habit of pre-setup.

Building the next scenario for a half hour while watching a show or listening to something so that I'm ready to just seperate it out from the rubberbanded pile of cards when it is time to play.

Because yah, it takes forever to shuffle all that and at least the building of cards for each location is a serial process you can't divvy out very well to multiple people.


At our Guild nights normally one of our organizers starts setting up the decks while the other and the players are getting out their decks and settling in. By the time the decks are ready a couple of us are free to shuffle.

I've split the deck building process with another person (reading numbers upside-down isn't that hard) but it's easier to have one person do it.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Guys I love you but you're not helping. Need peer pressure to get that automatic deck shuffling machine from Vegas.
... Or at least a funny answer from Vic to make my day.

:-)

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