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I know it says that it must be a one handed slashing, rapier or sword cane to get this effect, the argument posted to me was that it can be used one handed, but it isn't slashing, but the argument posted to that is that it is the bigger version of the rapier and can still be used with one hand with the feat.
But it still doesn't go read as written then.
I.e.
its not a one handed slasher, a rapier or a sword cane.
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No, an Estoc can't be a Black Blade for a Bladebound Magus. It isn't a one-handed slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane. I don't really see why this is confusing.
It can be a Black Blade for a Blade Adept Arcanist, though.
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No I am the GM
A player was explaining this to me, but I was merely confirming.
Thanks bro
*edit*
I was just confirming that my assumptions were right, in that it didn't fit the very strict requirements to be a black blade.
the Estoc does seem kind of overpowered.
it can benefit from being used as a two handed weapon, and can gain weapon finesse but only when wielded as a one hander.
hmm or maybe that's just versatility...
its damage and crit averages will also be higher/ better.
Yeah, the RAW on the matter is pretty clear.
That said, I don't think it would be an unreasonable to houserule the estoc into the list. After all, it makes as much sense as the rapier.
The rules say no. But if you are the GM you Can say yes if you want to. The rapire or a slashing weapon Will be better because of dex to damage, so there is no power Reason to say no.
No I am the GM
A player was explaining this to me, but I was merely confirming.
Thanks bro
*edit*
I was just confirming that my assumptions were right, in that it didn't fit the very strict requirements to be a black blade.
the Estoc does seem kind of overpowered.
it can benefit from being used as a two handed weapon, and can gain weapon finesse but only when wielded as a one hander.hmm or maybe that's just versatility...
its damage and crit averages will also be higher/ better.
It's a bastard sword rapier. It can be used with weapon finesse only if you have the exotic weapon proficiency feat, but once you have that you can use weapon finesse with it in one or two hands. You may have missed that part.
As far as Bladebound goes, no, he can't. But the fact that the Blade Adept arcanist ignores that is dumb, and it's not a bad houserule to allow Bladebound magi to take any one-handed piercing or slashing weapon within reason as their black blade.
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ah, I was just worried largely because I have 1 Veteran Player and a lot of new players, and the Veteran is using a lot of options while the newer players are deciding to just stick with many basics, which is creating a serious gap in damage output.
a vague example would be as the Veteran generates say 2d6+14 damage and attacks twice, while the others dead 1d8+4 damage and attacks twice.
Its just a situation where the newer players cant essentially play and keep up with the veteran.
I could limit character race, class and item limitations to negate this, as well as all the myriad of regional traits out there. But perhaps that would be stifling. I am largely just worried about newer players getting discouraged about playing because they are always over shadowed by the Veteran Player. The Veteran is an excellent player however, but sometimes the characters, while in character bicker and in-fight and the Veteran sometimes because of game mechanics knowledge, and the knowledge of proper application of spells comes off as some what bully like. I really want all the players to be able to shape events around them without really creating a "Main" character and forcing others into "Supporting Character" roles, and by that I don't mean support classes... I mean like they are always forced, moved, intimidated, bluffed etc.. into doing things at the behest of the Veteran.
It's worth pointing out that the black blade archetype was written well before the estoc, so the estoc's omission from that list shouldn't necessarily be read as intentional.
Estoc is from a splat book they are almost never mentioned in the core Line books. But Estoc could have had a Line saying they could be used as BB.
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Estoc: An estoc is a sword about as long as a bastard sword, but designed exclusively for thrusting attacks. Its “blade” is a steel spike with a triangular, square, or hexagonal crosssection. Like the bastard sword, an estoc requires special training to use it one handed, but it can also be wielded as a two-handed martial weapon. When you wield an estoc with one hand, treat it as a one-handed weapon; when you wield an estoc with two hands, treat it as a two-handed weapon. If you can use the estoc proficiently with one hand, you can also use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls when wielding an estoc sized for you with one or two hands, even though it isn’t a light weapon.
FIGHTER WEAPON GROUPS
Blades, Heavy: Ankus, estocOne-Handed Weapons
Estoc 50 gp 2d3 2d4 18–20/×2 — 4 lbs. P
It follow the bastard sword rules and it is definitely a one handed weapon.
On the other hand it isn't a slashing weapon or a rapier, so it can't be chosen as a black blade by a magus.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Estoc is from a splat book they are almost never mentioned in the core Line books. But Estoc could have had a Line saying they could be used as BB.It's worth pointing out that the black blade archetype was written well before the estoc, so the estoc's omission from that list shouldn't necessarily be read as intentional.
True, and it might not have gotten a callout for that reason, but even if they were willing to reference splat material in a core book, the estoc post-dates the BB archetype by four years.
And they could have called out the BB in the estoc description, but that's asking an awful lot of the writer in that case. I don't think I could have told you off the top of my head that the BB had a weird weapon restriction until this thread reminded me, nor could I tell you how many other classes/archetypes have similar restrictions (but I'm willing to bet it's more than just the black blade). Even if I did have the BB and similar classes in mind, adding in callouts for all those classes would eat up a lot of words for very little benefit.
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I just want to prevent the appearance of another broken class like the "Falchion Fred" Essentially just breaking or finding loop holes in rules to build something the rest of the party can not compare to or keep up with. As things that would challenge one character essentially one shot the rest of the party...
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I wouldn't reference a DPR Olympics character when making a playing character that will have to survive from level 1 to 20.
If you want to limit a magus, disallowing some metamagic feat, like Intensified Spell, or the traits that allow a character to add metamagics at reduced cost work better. And avoiding the 15 minutes adventuring day help too.
A magus can go nova but he can't do that several times in a day unless he spend resources (feats, arcana, money) for that. Resources that other characters can spend to stay on par with him.
What is the advantage of the estoc against a scimitar or rapier? 2d4 vs 1d6. If enlarged they both become 2d6.
Disadvantages? It cost 1 feat to be able to use it one handed (unless you are a kensai).
I think that helping the new players with their builds will be more useful and more fun than limiting the experienced player (up to a point, there are extremes that is better to avoid).
Yeah, as far as character power goes, the only difference between a magus with an estoc vs. a magus with a rapier is 1d6 vs. 2d4. Which, given how most of magus's damage comes from their spells and static modifiers anyway, isn't a very big deal.
No, an Estoc can't be a Black Blade for a Bladebound Magus. It isn't a one-handed slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane. I don't really see why this is confusing.
It can be a Black Blade for a Blade Adept Arcanist, though.
because it's just a big rapier.
it probably was never added because they didn't care enough to make a change to it.
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ok so he is a Magus, that is using the black blade archetype and the kensai archetype.
Essentially wanting to use the Estoc as the black blade and the kensai abilities in addition to being a drow noble for race with Xian region traits. Armor wise using a Haramaki which gives a +1 AC while not giving a arcane spell failure or armor check penalty, but with canny defense able to add intelligence to Dex for the purpose of additional defense. Its a very smart build... but the rest of the crew will not be able to compete on levels I believe beyond 4 as their ideas are fairly simple.
So ok, I am letting him be a drow noble but he is going to be a level behind everyone else as I think its a +1 level adjustment.
The other characters are essentially.
Ratfolk alchemist no archetype or anything
human barbarian no archtype
and there was talk about a human monk and human paladin again with no archetypes.
Allowing him to be a noble drow is a questionable choice.
A kensai that get+4 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma, –2 Constitution.
is getting a large boost.
We are speaking of +2 to hit, +3 to AC, +1 to will saves, +1 arcane pool point.
The -2 to constitution can be ameliorated through magic items or feats and it is the same drawback a elf get.
As he is clearly meant to be a melee character and not a spellcaster the loss of 1 spellcasting level will not hurt him much, the -1 to hit a bit more, but it is compensated by the the +2 for the higher dexterity.
Essentially you are giving him a non standard race that boost his strong point while minimizing the cost. That can create problems within the group.
I always hated (and ignored) the restrictions on the black blade. There are cool options that are not Elric thank you very much.
A friend played a Black Blade Kensai with a heavy mace. That character was amazing, especially with the Kensai's extra crit multiplier+max damage. He didnt crit often but when he did... Splat.
My understanding is the estoc qualifies.
My explanation of my answer is here.
Basically put the FAQ's regarding the bastard sword support the position that how you use it is what determines what the weapon qualifies for.
My understanding is the estoc qualifies.
My explanation of my answer is here.
Basically put the FAQ's regarding the bastard sword support the position that how you use it is what determines what the weapon qualifies for.
estoc doesn't so slashing damage.
A very salient point, thank you I forgot that while developing the other thread.
I decided to put all the different and contradictory FAQ's together so we could see them all and try to get some final closure on them.
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Yes, possibly true in a game with lots of creative players, but in a game where the other PC are playing pretty vanilla, I think you may be in for an unpleasant surprise.
Especially if he figures out a way to get see in darkness.
This is true, but he is essentially a drow and has to deal with all the subsequent social problems therein, in addition to his house hunting him, plus a very angry god/goddess looking for him as he was suppose to be a ritual sacrifice that got away.
And some other plans of mine to make Daylight spells a lot more common because, like real life people are afraid of the dark.
Or some particular old D&D 2.0 monsters that don't see just normally but have the ability to see your body heat as well... kinda like the predator.
and a fair warning that if he uses his Drow Racial abilities too much it will tell the people looking for him where he is, then its essentially CR12 infiltration squad arrives and takes him in the night not bothering to mess with the others just so they can get the sacrifice back sooner.... once again if need be.
It sounds like you have thought this out. I wish you luck.
IR vision theoretically wouldn't work in deeper darkness.
But tremor sense and blindsight will work on him.
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My understanding is the estoc qualifies.
My explanation of my answer is here.
Basically put the FAQ's regarding the bastard sword support the position that how you use it is what determines what the weapon qualifies for.
Well the Estoc is Neither a one handed slashing weapon, a rapier nor a sword cane.
The Argument that it is essentially a Large Rapier you can wield in one hand is also kind of off to, as looking at its stats, its drastically different than a Large Rapier.
The only thing that lends credit really to this is that with an exotic weapon Prof it can be wielded in one hand.
A bastard Sword cant be used for something that requires a light/ one handed piercing weapon can it? As the weapon is neither light nor one handed and does not apply piercing. Its just not in the design. Just because you have a feat that lets you use a item a certain way. If I have a feat like monkey/ oversized Grip that lets me use a large weapon in one hand like a great axe (slashing and bludgeoning), I cant simply enchant it with something that would only be viable with light slashing weapons. Just because a feat lets you use it that way doesn't mean it is that way. Not trying to be a jerk about it but its just how I see it.
*edit* and ninja'ed...
A bastard sword is a 1 handed sword that require a specific proficiency, not a two handed sword.
One-Handed Melee Weapons
Sword, bastard
We can actually talk about that in the thread I made, because if it was actually that then you could non-proficiency it one-handed which you can't do.
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Well IR vision lets you detect the amount and presence of heat, or in this case body heat. Bodies are generating head irregardless of the presence or absence of light is how I view it. As Deeper Darkness is just limiting the light available, but Daylight also counters that.
IR (infrared light) *is* light. It is a light generated by warm objects. darkness (and deeper darkness) block sources of light. That said, your game, your rules. But by the normal rules, IR would be blocked by both darkness and deeper darkness.