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Just wondering if I can use Weapon finesse to attack with my Dexterity and use Power Attack at the same time.
It just seems off because I have weapon Finesse, which involves me using my dexterity instead of my strength to attack my enemy.... but using power attack, an ability that uses brute strength to lose accuracy... Brute Strength is the exact opposite of Weapon Finesse.
I am aware as all the read as written versus read as intended going about.... but this seems a tad off.
It works. The Power Attack damage bonus isn't actually determined by your STR bonus, although you need 13 STR to qualify. Similarly, Weapon Finesse only applies your DEX bonus to your 'to hit' rolls. So you are still using your STR bonus for damage.
No problem there. What is it with the Estoc? It seems very popular these days.
No problem there. What is it with the Estoc? It seems very popular these days.
Another high crit Finessible weapon that can be used one or two-handed. Would work really, really well with an Unchained Rogue now that they 1.5 Dex to damage with two-handed weapons.
No problem there. What is it with the Estoc? It seems very popular these days.
It's basically a rapier that does 2d4 damage.
No problem there. What is it with the Estoc? It seems very popular these days.
It is basically takes an elven curved blade, but gives it a mix of bastard sword and aldori dueling sword mechanics.
For two handers, it gives a high crit option that isn't a falchion (which has a rather specific kind of flavor) or a nodachi (which has a VERY STRONG specific kind of flavor)
For dex builds, it can work in a manner similar to an elven curved blade, or as a rapier with larger damage dice- whichever strikes your fancy (I could see a dex TWF build with agile weapons take advantage of this- just grab a cestus on the offhand)
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Just wondering if I can use Weapon finesse to attack with my Dexterity and use Power Attack at the same time.
It just seems off because I have weapon Finesse, which involves me using my dexterity instead of my strength to attack my enemy.... but using power attack, an ability that uses brute strength to lose accuracy... Brute Strength is the exact opposite of Weapon Finesse.
I am aware as all the read as written versus read as intended going about.... but this seems a tad off.
Not really. You are both precises and brutal, combining both strength and precision. Of course, because you are throwing so much strength around, your accuracy suffers, and you risk missing completely. (that is the -1 per 4 bab to hit part.)
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It doesn't actually say any of that.
It just says you trade accuracy for power.
Your combination (especially with the size and style of weapon you are talking about) is more like weaving a deft and subtle pattern with your blade to slide past your opponent's defenses, and then when you are lined up with the target you make an explosive thrust. The up side is when it connects, it is brutal, the down side is that at that moment when you tense yourself to commit, your opponent has a split second to recognize what is happening and deflect or dodge the blow, causing you to miss.
(Now I am trying to think of a good video clip that I can use to show this... How about this. Not really what I wanted, but:)
About 4:20, watch the guy and girl on the left, slow smooth moves until she sees an opening, then a rapid punch.
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Yes, but I always envisioned a Power attack as a wind up (like a baseball bat swing), and then a huge swing for the fences(again baseball reference), basically raw power at the expense of everything else.
That might be how you envision it, but there is no mechanic to support that picture.
Maybe it would help if you compared it to pool instead of baseball: when you want to hit the ball harder and add more power to your shot, you pull the cue back a few inches further (the wind up) and move it forward faster as you strike (the "big swing"). This reduces the control you have over your cue, and therefore increases the chances that you'll hit the ball in the wrong spot and your shot will go awry. So you are definitely trading accuracy for power, but clearly, pool is still a game of finesse over brute strength.
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If Weapon Finesse was about precision shouldn't it fail against creatures immune to precision damage?
The use of the term Dexterity in PF is somewhat broader than common usage and does not have as strong associations with fine hand movements. For example, balancing, flexibility, and reflexes are governed by the Dex stat. So a character with Weapon Finesse may be particularly quick to respond to an opponent's openings, or may use an acrobatic style to attack from unusual angles.
Overall, the estoc is not that bad, since he needs EWP to use it- that is something he can't get until level 3 (which delays power attack, which is one of the main reasons to even bother with an estoc in the first place)
Overall, he is expending a rather large resource for a slight advantage. There are worse things he could do with that feat than get an estoc.
but using a pool stick and swinging a sword are completely unrelated... a sword swing even a thrust in fencing is different then a pool stick simply going to sink a ball, the similarity is really only in the basic thrust. Beyond the thrust there is the motion of the body to a much larger degree. I understand what you are trying to hint at but I am just saying that the motions are completely different as you try to "Power attack" with a pool stick, i.e. hitting it with everything you got, then your going to shoot the ball off the table, so how would you then be sinking the eight ball when you catapult it into someone's sinus cavity.Yes, but I always envisioned a Power attack as a wind up (like a baseball bat swing), and then a huge swing for the fences(again baseball reference), basically raw power at the expense of everything else.That might be how you envision it, but there is no mechanic to support that picture.
Maybe it would help if you compared it to pool instead of baseball: when you want to hit the ball harder and add more power to your shot, you pull the cue back a few inches further (the wind up) and move it forward faster as you strike (the "big swing"). This reduces the control you have over your cue, and therefore increases the chances that you'll hit the ball in the wrong spot and your shot will go awry. So you are definitely trading accuracy for power, but clearly, pool is still a game of finesse over brute strength.
But the physics are the same: more force and more speed = more power on impact with some loss of control. I used pool because a fencing thrust has more in common with the motion of a pool cue than it does with a baseball bat. You could find other analogies--say a striker in soccer or footvolley, where you can't exaggerate your wind up too much or you'll fall on your butt, but the physics of "sacrifice control for power" certainly still apply.
Remember, there's no "motion" defined for Power Attack: this image you have of "swinging for the fences" is all in your head. It's not in the rules or the description of Power Attack in any way. As a GM, you would certainly be within your purview to define it however you like, but there's no mechanical requirement anywhere in the rule book.
Power Attack essentially means that you sacrifice accuracy/precision for power, while by definition using dexterity is the very root of precision. To have very dexterous hands means that you are able to make, say very precise actions with your hands, like working on a motherboard of a computer with a soldering iron.
Here you're conflating accuracy and precision, but those are not the same. My physics professor described it this way: If you have a dart that always pulls to the right and hit outside the bullseye in the same spot every time, the dart is very precise, but it sure ain't accurate.
I would also argue that your example of the soldering iron requires more stability than dexterity. I see dexterity as more "hand-eye coordination" than "steady hands".
When you swing with all your strength into something that level of exertion detracts from your accuracy. When practicing with a sword if I were to go all out on a swing I didn't just swing with my arms but with my chest and back to. The Attack is less accurate then when I say did a simple thrust or a normal swing worrying about hitting what would be a location viewed as a vital or something as a point target for points.
And that's why you take the minus to hit. Maybe I'm not quite understanding what your issue is.
Overall, the estoc is not that bad, since he needs EWP to use it- that is something he can't get until level 3 (which delays power attack, which is one of the main reasons to even bother with an estoc in the first place)
Overall, he is expending a rather large resource for a slight advantage. There are worse things he could do with that feat than get an estoc.
Well he is a Magus with the Kensai and Black Blade Archetypes.
So he gets the Exotic Weapon Prof for free as he gets to choose a free exotic weapon prof. So there is no expenditure, and since he gets the free Exotic Weapon Prof for the Estoc it is a light one handed piercer. No Expenditure.
Darn it, I had refreshed this page hoping no one had noticed this so I could delete my comment after remembering we were discussing a kensai
Still, I doubt it is a major problem. Scimitars provide better advantages for strength builds, and the str vs dex debate is VERY often shaky on which is better (since getting dex to both hit and damage requires resources- here, it is a feat and a weapon property, since estocs do not qualify for fencing grace or slashing grace)
Really, a far more worrying thing would be if he took arcane deed for precise strike. That is a class feature meant to put swashbucklers on par with 2 handing full BAB classes- since magus is 3/4 BAB, that is a straight upgrade, and fantastic for the multihit nature of spell combat/strike. It is a straight upgrade for both and and strength magi...and it would make estoc useless (since it would have to be 1 handed, and as such it is just a rapier with better damage dice and less support)
So, what I am saying here is that your player is not bringing out ALL of the stops her. Just a nice modest one really.
Well the estoc was designed to deliver powerful and accurate two handed thrusts while still being useful as a one-handed weapon and even as a substitute lance.
As I would say it's at least true to life.
Sometimes a weapon is simply very good at what it does.
Most estocs tend to taper down to an average thinness of 5/16th of an inch or about the size of a 7.62.
Thrusting it precisely into a vital spot and deep is going to leave quite the wound channel and lots of blood gushing out (I would argue for a bleeding quality to the estoc but that's not here or there).
Regardless it was considered a really nasty and dangerous weapon, because it was precise and powerful.
The combination you simply don't like.
I don't expect you to like it, but it is what it is, and what it is suppose to be and most importantly (in this case) is rules legal.
It is a finesse weapon, it is two handed, and it is designed to be used with powerful two handed attacks. All of which you can do in pathfinder, and is rules legal.
Well house rules are that but as to the weapon itself:
If you can use the estoc proficiently with one hand, you can also use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls when wielding an estoc sized for you with one or two hands, even though it isn't a light weapon.
You can finesse it regardless of how you use it.
Or just tell him no, and explain why. Nothing wrong with saying no to what you aren't comfortable with.
I have normal characters, human fighters elf rangers like that.
and he builds a Drow Noble Magus that is dual archetype as a black blade and Kensai with an estoc for his Black Blade (though it says you cant make it a black blade) with corresponding traits from Xian... how a drow noble gets Xian traits is something I am rolling around in my brain....
...that is a legitimate question, since the darklands under Tian Xia are explicitly noted to not have any of the 'coreraces, but underdark flavored' types (lets see, source for that tidbit is from the Dragon Empires Gazetteer)
And since the darklands are visited sparsely enough that the VAST majority of the world do not even realize that there drow are even a THING (due to the lantern bearer's information control on the elf side), it stretches believability that a random wanderer from Tian Xia (a rare occurance in its own right) happened to stumble into a cave and find a drow child (particularly a VERY well bred one) *
As GM, you are reasonably allowed to question this, and you are allowed to rein it in if you think it is too much. You are responsible for the setting and generally getting various motifs and elements to work together.
And honestly? This guy sounds all over the place- he is a drow (an overpowered one) Drizzt-ing it up on the surface, he is raised by some fantasty asian warrior...but he uses a weapon that is exceedingly European in flavor. I do not know your player...but said like this, it starts to sound like powergaming cheese to me.
You are within your rights to rein things in a bit when players get this off the wall. Ask him to narrow his focus so he is not so much of a random mix and match story-wise.
*of course, this argument is all based upon the Golarion setting- you might do something quite different, and that is fine. Just throwing this out as a fairly good basis to talk to your player.
Final side note- Considering the fact that he is a magus, you are probably better off using numbers rather than strength to challenge him. Magi are decent enough in melee...but they specialize in going nova on anything big. Throw enough at him, and he should be forced to just be a near featless dex fighter in light armor. Done well, it should also give your other players plenty to do
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It's not like you decided what content to use to pick on him. You set them to limit the content for whatever reasons you have. There are many more weapons to choose from. Just tell him you are sorry, but you are sticking to X books and would ask him to limit his choices there.
Part of being a GM is saying 'no'. Players like to push the limit to see what they can get. It's just the way it is. So, get used to it because saying 'no' is gong to come up again and again and again.
its just when I look at his
+3 to hit and +6 Damagecompared to others
+2 to hit and +4 Damageessentially I wonder that the fighter mage person is able to out fighter the fighters, just based off his knowledge and that he looks and researches forums for super powered builds while the others create something that they think would be fun as opposed to building something that is powerful.
First, he can't use Spell Combat if he's wielding a two-handed weapon, so he should rarely use his weapon two-handed.
Second, all of his damage is going to come from the Empowered Shocking Grasp that he delivers through the weapon, so it's really the 3d6 x 1.5 electricity damage at 1st level that you need to worry about.
Third, as the GM, you can just rein his power level in. Restrict his caster level to actual character level and don't let him have extra tricks with metamagic feats. His magus class features are going to be strong enough without any Varisian Tattoo/Magical Lineage/Wayang Spell Hunter shenanigans.
And you have every right to restrict your players to certain content. Many of the splat books have easily exploitable wording, and some of the APs have traits that are good for that AP but overpowered anywhere else. Don't approve anything you aren't comfortable with.
If you're really worried, you can even set maximums for attack, damage, AC, HP, and saves for the characters.
Part of being a GM is saying 'no'. Players like to push the limit to see what they can get. It's just the way it is. So, get used to it because saying 'no' is gong to come up again and again and again.
Very much this. As a GM, it is far, far, far better to simply tell your player "I want you to build a character with a similar power level to the rest of the group." than it is to ban specific combinations they attempt.
Just tell your player your real objection (I think your character is too powerful for this campaign) and set him free to build a character in-line with the rest of the party. There are plenty of complicated but low-power builds your player may enjoy, but he may never attempt one of them if he doesn't know that's what you're looking for.
If Weapon Finesse was about precision shouldn't it fail against creatures immune to precision damage?
The use of the term Dexterity in PF is somewhat broader than common usage and does not have as strong associations with fine hand movements. For example, balancing, flexibility, and reflexes are governed by the Dex stat. So a character with Weapon Finesse may be particularly quick to respond to an opponent's openings, or may use an acrobatic style to attack from unusual angles.
Well it probably could be argued that anything that adds dex to damage would fail.
But then you wouldn't get the BONUS from precision damage. As you are still hitting it, (with a sneak attack you are just slitting their throat or stabbing them in the kidney, as opposed to just looking for an opening where they are not blocking with a shield or an opening between the metal plates for you to stuff a rapier into)so sneak attack and critical hits don't count against things immune to Precision damage. I.E. Blobs.
Essentially are you using Raw Power (Power attack) to fell your opponent or are you using quick light thrusts and flourishes. As until the Estoc and some Elven weapons you couldn't really weapon finesse two handers which getting the additional damage from a power attack using two handers bonus, all the while using your dexterity to hit.
you're trading damage for accuracy, with your rapier example, he's waiting or not attacking with the same effect because he's watching for the PERFECT chance to do more damage.
so using power attack on dexterity works, you're trying to apply your damage so an individual hit will be more effective but it will be harder to land such a hit and thus you're more likely to fail all together.
Ok, break down is thus...Precision attack with Short sword or rapier, very small agile weapon, would essentially do damage to a soft target as opposed to a hard target.
Great Axe, very heavy weapon if someone wears armor, your sheer force and power wielded behind it would essentially ruin the person and the Armor. That is Power Attack... using raw Power for damage at the expense of everything else.
and estoc is designed to be able to puncture armor, it's a very strong piercing weapon. might not pierce every time but it can so imagine power attack as someone trying to pierce the torso armor for a chest hit.
Another thought on power attack: you could be looking for the better strike instead of the easy strike. The penalty represents the fact you are not taking the first opportunity given but waiting for the much smaller target window you want knowing that if you do hit that target window you are going to hurt them so much more.
i said that 2 posts ago. ;-;
No reason you can't. There is a feat from the Sargava book called piranha strike that is basically power attack but only for light finessable weapons. That discriptions says that you trade hitting one good blow, for a number of smaller ones, increasing damage but lowering to hit. I imagine it is the same for the Estoc when using power attack.
i said that 2 posts ago. ;-;
You know the internet; everyone thinks they can say it better regardless of actual ability to do so!
Why not just have the experienced player help the less experienced players with a bit of character building advice? That seems like a win for everyone.
No problem there. What is it with the Estoc? It seems very popular these days.
Its one of the weapons available in Pillars of eternity, which may have contributed a bit to its popularity on the tabletop.
Yes, but I always envisioned a Power attack as a wind up (like a baseball bat swing), and then a huge swing for the fences(again baseball reference), basically raw power at the expense of everything else.
With the estoc that just translates into:
Backing up slowly, aiming as best you can, then letting loose with a massive thrust.
I.e, wind up then attack. No different from spears.
Yes, but I always envisioned a Power attack as a wind up (like a baseball bat swing), and then a huge swing for the fences(again baseball reference), basically raw power at the expense of everything else.With the estoc that just translates into:
Backing up slowly, aiming as best you can, then letting loose with a massive thrust.
I.e, wind up then attack. No different from spears.
yes, but it was just an issue really with one character knowing how to crunch numbers and stack bonuses from everything under the sun from the different splat books while the others didn't.
I just forsee it leading to an imbalance in character potential.
But if the community says that there is no way that he can possibly cause a problem with his damage out-put in that fashion I will leave it alone.
it won't create a problem unless other people want to be awesome face crushers. if they do want to be that he should help them, as their fluff might seem fun but when they're not actually being awesome at what they imagined, they'll want to crunch the numbers.
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So, I wrote a whole bucket of posts last night, but most of them got eaten in the board crash.
Long story short, look at your player and say "these are the books I'm planning to use. If you find something you want, you can explain why its flavor makes sense for your character, but I am probably going to say no." And then enforce that rule on everyone.
If you are constantly trying to come up with reasons why his (rules legal) options that you let him take don't work, of course he is going to feel picked on. Especially since you don't do it to anyone else. (Because you don't feel you need to.)
The Estoc is not a scaled up rapier. It is the finesse version of a lance and the armor piercing version of a bastard sword. As such weapon finesse / power attack seems like an entirely reasonable option.
The answer to armor was not big weapons with larger destructive surfaces, as you seem to think. Those were the answer to unarmored opponents. Against armor, they spread the force of the impact over a greater area and increased the effectiveness of the armor. Axes designed to deal with armor had sharp back spikes to concentrate the force of your strike and penetrate the armor, the blades were for unarmored opponents. Hammers meant to deal with armor had heads that were about 1 inch across (from memory, may be a little bigger) and had raised cornerspikes to further concentrate the force to blow through armor. The estoc was a similar principle, applied to a bastard sword.