|
Rogue / Monk What kind of split are you looking for? More monk or more Rogue.
This is what I was going to do. When I get around to making my Monk/Rogue concept.
Monk 2 / Rogue (All other levels)
Str 10
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 16
Con 8
Traits:
Feet's:
1: Weapon Finesses
Human: Toughness
3: Two Weapon Fighting
5: Two-Weapon Defense
7: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
9: Weapon Focus: Short Sword
11: Improved Critical: Short Sword
Monk Feet's:
1: Dodge
2: Combat Reflexes
Rogue Talent:
2: Trap Spotter
4: Surprise Attack
6: Fast Stealth
8: Combat Trick: Improved Initiative
|
|
The problem you will run into. With a lot of monk levels your skill ranks will drop. Having more then two level in rogue or monk. Will give you a increases in diminished return. As more then dipping will spread your focus to much to keep it effective. I chose Rogue as the main class and just dipped monk for wis mod to ac, and two bonus feet's. The rogue dip really you only need one level to pick up trapfinding. The down side is you have less skill ranks. That is the reason I chose to focus on Rogue over Monk.
Going unarmed strike. Leads to a big problem. The damage increases from monk levels dose not help compared to weapons. And the biggest problem is enchantment amulet of mighty fist is more expensive then if you enchant two weapons. That's what you will run into at higher levels. So I recommend you think about using unarmed if you need to. But noting can replace the weapons increased threat range and damage by pass.
Multiclassing in equal amounts isn't well supported in Pathfinder, unfortunately. Going single-class monk works - if you want to still use the same concept, pick more rogue-like skills for your monk. You're not going to be disabling magical traps, but you can definitely pull off an unarmed thug type concept.
|
|
Well... I've been advised by two of my local GMs that the rogue/monk hardly ever "works." I am taking that to mean you may be true to your concept but you will never really contribute to the party in a meaningful way.
<sigh>
OK. I'm thick but not entirely stupid. I'll go back to searching the boards on basic Core monk, I guess. :-(
A. people don't like rogues, I love them as a rogue enthusiast. Its my personal form of deviancy.
B. never contribute - I'm into my 11th tracked table of rogues, out of 30+ (individual) players none have indicated the (does not contribute to the game box) on the tracking sheets. Once I hit 20 sheets I'll post the results.
Maneuver master monk 2-5 levels
Rogue Thug 5+
Feats
Dirty Trick
Imp Trip
Sap Adept
Sap Master
Two Weapon Fighting
Enforcer
Talents
Minor Magic - acid splash
Major Magic - True Strike
optional - ninja trick pressure points
(Advanced Rogue Talent (whenever you get there - Dispelling strike))
The rest according to your preferences.
Actions
You move and true strike (to within 5' of target). Next round trip +20 insight +whatever else you have at that level. He's on the ground, go for the dirty trick (+4 prone) to blind. Depending on your level hit the blind prone guy with remaining attacks.
With your unarmed strike (doing nonlethal) - to a blinded prone target (+6 - target no dex / no aoo) activate sap master unless he has uncanny dodge. double SA dice, apply (Thug) brutal beating for sickened condition. Doing non lethal damage activates enforcer (intimidate check) if you beat target by 10 he gains the frightened condition (Thug - Frightening) if you simply beat the target # he is shaken for 2+ rounds.
So you've put the following conditions on the target
Prone
Blind
Sickened
Shaken or Frightened
Level 2-3 for me was harder than my traditional rogues. I'm level 7 now (2 Monk, 5 Rogue) and its been fun. He'll be a monster around 11 (where much of PFS ends for me as I've played out most of the high level content - adventure paths).
Play what you want.
If you're pretty sure you want a Dex-based monk, then Improved Grapple will be a tough direction to take. Even with Improved Grapple (and even if you go with Agile Maneuvers feat), being Grappled imposes a -4 penalty to Dex right off the bat.
It's kind of a trap that you might have a hard time escaping in Core.
How set are you on playing a Dex-based character? If you prioritized strength, instead, it would at least simplify your build and options (though obviously your defenses would suffer).
EDIT: sorry or not answering your actual question, but both of your options began with an investment in Grappling, which — as stated—would be painful as a Dex-based character ... hence my response.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
It's odd... being a noob, I can sort of see how the pieces fit together individually, but cannot grasp the whole character I want to build. I am sure there are nuances eluding me.
I offer you this piece of advice for "big picture" thinking:
If you want one of your combat contributions to be hitting things with weapon attacks (but not be a full-on fighter/barbarian/etc), make sure your class-granted attack bonus is higher than 3/4 of your level. That is, if you strip away all the things that are independent of class (like stats, feats, etc) and just look at how your class itself contributes to your attack roll (BAB, built-in bonuses, self-buffing spells, etc), the resulting attack bonus needs to be higher than 3/4 of your level in order for you to make a solid contribution.
For example:
The bard has 3/4 BAB and Inspire Courage (and a few buff spells), getting him up past 3/4 level for his total class-granted attack bonus.
The cleric has 3/4 BAB and some good attack buff spells like divine favor, so his total is also above 3/4 his level.
The monk has 3/4 BAB but changes to full BAB when flurrying, so his total is (sometimes) above 3/4 his level.
The magus has 3/4 BAB and an arcane pool that throws extra enhancement bonuses on his weapon, so his total can go above 3/4 his level.
The rogue has 3/4 BAB and... that's it, so his class-granted attack bonus is NOT above 3/4 his level, so he will struggle badly to try and contribute. It will take extra work to be a meaningful part of the team.
Note that this rule of thumb is for when fighting in combat is NOT your primary role. If your main role is hitting things, you're instead aiming for a class-granted attack bonus that's higher than your level. (For example, the fighter gets full BAB plus Weapon Training, the barbarian gets full BAB plus rage, etc.) The "higher than 3/4 your level" advice is for second-string attackers, like skill monkeys and half-casters and such.
It's not a hard and fast rule, but it's a simple and easy thing to keep in mind when building a secondary combatant. If you're not as good at attacking as other secondary combatants (those who were specifically designed to fight not-as-well-as-fighters), then it might be time to revisit how you're implementing your concept.
Hope that helps!
sees that someone is trying to do core monk with core rogue. *hisses defensively at the bad combo*
if you're going core, ranger is better as a combatant(than rogue), and a wizard is better skill monkey.
grappling falls off at higher levels as creatures get bigger. maneuvers in general fall off.
I don't remember how core this is, but a lore warden fighter is a better maneuver guy.
If you want to go straight monk 100% and not just play another class and say you're a monk in-game then I'd go the tanking route. Get Wisdom and Dexterity as high as you can, get weapon finesse then use trip on your finesse-able weapon (preferable a monk weapon so that you can flurry it), then just keep trying to trip people and hurting them when they're prone. tripping will get hard later though, like other maneuvers.
if you have access to unchained (i'm not sure if you're doing PFS or a home game) through d20pfsrd.com the unchained rogue and 1 level of monk can make a good combo, try to apply dex to damage on your fists and you'll do decent damage with high AC and saves(all your primary stats as the ones that key into saves).
|
Okay - to warn you - I like interesting/oddball concepts - but once I have one I like to make it as potent as I can. (So I end up with very solid characters - but not as crazy good as some.) So - take the advice with a grain of salt.
Also to warn you - monks can be potent - but they are one of the trickier classes to build well. Adding in the rogue multi-class only makes it trickier.
The combo you want can work rather well... if you go with Unchained Rogue (basically a straight upgrade - done because base rogue was really weak). Take 1 level of monk - then those 4 levels of rogue to give you dex to damage & debilitating strike. Then go straight monk from there (either unchained or an archetype - always take Qinggong and something else if not unchained).
If you're going with a dex build (which you should with that combo) - you shouldn't bother with Improved Grapple. Grappling is based around Str unless you spend an extra feat on making it Dex.
For your first 2 monk bonus feats - I'd recommend Dodge & Deflect arrow, though Combat Reflexes meshes with certain builds. I wouldn't worry about the bonus feats for 6+ yet, as by level 10 total (with 4 of rogue) - you'll have a good bit more experience to choose with. (Gorgan's Fist is really bad though - and I've only seen Spring Attack work well for tripper builds) As to other feats - go with Pummeling Style unless you end up going with the Unchained Monk.
As to stats - your starter stats weren't that bad if you don't want to drop below 10, but consider this -
Str 10
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 10
Also - as a general monk tip - grab a wand of mage armor ASAP and give it to a wizard to use on you. Also - if it's your only PFS character - also grab a half dozen potions of mage armor to use when there's no wiz/sorc/witch etc in the group.
I thought Unchained options were unavailable in Core games. Am i incorrect?
|
|
To give some perspective on the advice consider the following.
Multiclassing is generally considered weaker than staying in a single class.
In Unchained three classes were redone making them closer to the rest of the classes power wise. One was reduced in power the other two were increased in power. Monk and Rogue were the ones that needed help.
Between the release of the core rulebook and unchained several items, and archetypes were released to help the Rouge and Monk. They still needed reworking. By playing core you don't even get access to these upgrades.
Overall play what you want. I have players that have enjoyed that combo. I have enjoyed that combo. You just have to manage your expectations.
I thought Unchained options were unavailable in Core games. Am i incorrect?
it's up to the GM as always and it just alters core material. *shrug* not counting the summoner.
You need to decide what you want out of the character before you finalize a build.
People will totally respect that you have a concept, but from what I understand of mechanical strength in PFS, you need to be able to do something well. Even if it's just one thing.
Monk and rogue are the two weakest (mechanically) classes in the core book, and multi classing means you will have zero BAB at second level, literally wizards have better to hit than you do.
If you want to stick to the concept, don't focus on combat, focus on defenses and skills.
Monks are great for defense because they get all good saves and add in WIS to AC, unfortunately you can't wear armor. Gonna have to pick up some bracers later.
Rogues get skills and talents, that's it. You should only take rogue levels when you feel you need more skills.
Stat distribution: your numbers are off. Should look like this:
10 16 14 14 14 10
That is post racial. You are going to want high defensive stats for saves, and higher DEX than anything because you need AC and reflex for evasion because you will have low hit points.
For feats, pick up Finesse Rogue, Combat Expertise, and Dodge. Remember to always fight defensively/total defense and to put ranks into acrobatics. That way you get as much to AC as possible.
When you actually fight things, don't worry about hitting. Your job is to stand in front of your wizard/healer and make it impossible to hit both you and them. Fish for 20's when you attack because that's what you'll need to hit.
For other feats, look into the improved saving throw feats.
EDIT: Autocorrect is a b*tch
I thought Unchained options were unavailable in Core games. Am i incorrect?it's up to the GM as always and it just alters core material. *shrug* not counting the summoner.
Not according to this post. Has there been a more recent ruling that overturned this one?
Not according to this post. Has there been a more recent ruling that overturned this one?I thought Unchained options were unavailable in Core games. Am i incorrect?it's up to the GM as always and it just alters core material. *shrug* not counting the summoner.
i stated earlier i didn't know if this was for PFS or not.
|
i stated earlier i didn't know if this was for PFS or not.Not according to this post. Has there been a more recent ruling that overturned this one?I thought Unchained options were unavailable in Core games. Am i incorrect?it's up to the GM as always and it just alters core material. *shrug* not counting the summoner.
The title of the thread gave that away.
|
|
The title of the thread gave that away.i stated earlier i didn't know if this was for PFS or not.Not according to this post. Has there been a more recent ruling that overturned this one?I thought Unchained options were unavailable in Core games. Am i incorrect?it's up to the GM as always and it just alters core material. *shrug* not counting the summoner.
And the first sentence.
you win some you lose some. XD
Mostly i just look for the dot after a while.
I also think i might have gotten this thread and the one on the pirate monk that needed to have the scout archetype thread mixed up in my head.
|
|
I'm going to re-read the advice above many times. I also found Treantmonk's guides. I am now vacillating between a STR monk and a DEX monk.
Basically a STR monk does quite a bit more damage early - and a bit more damage later. His defenses aren't very good. If you go this route you should probably be a Sohei (not possible in a Core game), wield a weapon, and wear armor.
A DEX monk's defenses are the highest in the game, but his damage is weak until you can afford an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists. I currently have a PFS dex monk - but I used AP credit to get him up to level 4 and had him start with said Agile AoMF.
I believe Agile is available even in Core - as I think it's a PFS item, but I wouldn't swear it.
If you're sticking to Core I would go with a strength based monk. Getting a Dex build to work can be tricky even with Dex to damage, without Dex to damage you're pretty committing your character to getting the agile maneuvers feat and performing combat maneuvers most of the time which can be fairly unfun depending on what enemies you face.
Edit: I'm pretty sure the Agile enhancement is not accessible in Core since it's from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide.