So, I am just checking to make sure I understand this.
I have a NPC who has a symbol of insanity on his shield that is attuned so as to not affect him or his cohorts.
He uncovers the shield as a standard, when within 60 ft of the PC's triggering a save.
PC A: Makes the save.
PC B-C: Fails the save.
PC D: Makes the save.
NPC is at 60 feet away from PC's. He moves back 5 feet and is now 65 feet away. He then as part of the same move action moves forward 5 feet and is now 60 feet from PCs triggering another save, he repeats until out of move.
Since he has 30 ft of move he can force 4 saves on each PC.
Is this correct?
Symbol of Insanity uses the Symbol of Death spell description.
A Symbol of Death cannot be used offensively, as per its description.
The NPC in your op is clearly trying to use it offensively.
The result should be that the Symbol fails to trigger.
Relevant links: Symbol of Death, Symbol of Insanity
Symbol of Insanity says that it remains active for 10 minutes after being triggered, and the Will save negates. Therefore, I'd rule that PC's A and D are immune to that particular symbol after making the save once, but any other PC's or NPC's that came within range of the Symbol in the next 10 minutes would have to roll the appropriate Will save. After 10 minutes, PC's A and D would have to make a new save if they were still in range and triggered it again, but I know of no combat encounter that would last that long.
What Queen Moragan said. You are attempting to use it offensively, which is counter indicated by the rules.
So, Having it on your shield and using the looks at rule from symbol of death, would not let you do this.
Humm, does this mean it can be triggered as such.
NPC is 90 feet away from PC.
PC is looking at NPC.
PC moves to within 60 feet of NPC, which triggers symbol.
NPC moves away to be 65 feet away.
PC moves on his turn to be with in 60 feet again.
Does this trigger another save?
A creature need save against the symbol only once as long as it remains within the area, though if it leaves the area and returns while the symbol is still active, it must save again.
I can definitely see the NPC moving in and out be viewed as offensive use, but if the NPC is retreating and the PC is the one approaching, would this still be offensive use?
P.S. Thank you for the replies and the help.
I don't think having the symbol on a shield and covering/uncovering it is "offensive". Nor is moving back and forth. I think the text is pretty clear that when they said "you can't use it offensively" and then described hitting people with the symbol and hitting people with weapons inscribed with the symbol, that thy're really defining "offensive" as "hitting people".
Also, it says it triggers when a creature enters the area and even reenters the area, but I wouldn't allow the symbol-bearer to move into and out of range to count as a creature entering the area. The creature itself did NOT enter anything; it just stood there waiting for its turn and the area moved around it. That's different.
So, for me, it could be put on a shield and uncovering it would cause ONE save for everyone in range. If the symbol-bearer moves around, changing who is and is not in the area, it causes no more saves. If the enemies move around going into and out of the area, they take as many saves as they cause, per the description of the spell.
It supposed to be a magical trap, not a mobile weapon.
Can we all agree the Symbol line of spells are poorly written? They don't do a very good job of defining what "using offensively" means, they only give one specific example. If it was limited to that example only, they would have said that you can't do that one specific thing.
I'd say that forcing a symbol on someone counts as offensive--thus, dragging one towards a victim would be nasty.
Now, the symbol as a defence? That could be a tricky one. As in, 'oh @#$%, he's got a symbol of ouch on him'. Of course, Dispel Magic can solve that problem. (Seriously, it says so in the spell.) And Dispel has a range that starts pretty far from the trap.
One more thing ... I've seen some folks say that you only have to save once a turn against a specific effect. For example, when that high-level monk walks up to flurry you with Dazing Assault, you only take one save against getting dazed, not however many times you're punched. The same might apply here if the zone's moving and bobbing around crazily.
Ok Thanks folks.
I appreciate the clarifications.
Now I have another question.
Can I hang a Geas/Quest on a Greater Glyph of Warding?
I do not see why not, but it just seems mean.
Ok Thanks folks.
I appreciate the clarifications.
Now I have another question.
Can I hang a Geas/Quest on a Greater Glyph of Warding?
I do not see why not, but it just seems mean.
Yes, if your GM says so. Possible reasons why they might disallow it:
1.) Balance — Getting around the 10 minute casting time would upset most GM's.
2.) Technicality — Glyph of Warding can only apply a harmful spell, which Geas/Glyph might not qualify as. Geas/Quest is vague about its limitations, but does say it cannot be used to make the target cause their own death. It also doesn't have any ill effects if the target follows the instructions, so, depending on what the wording is, it might not be at all harmful to the target, subject to GM discretion.
3.) Rules Ambiguity — Part of the casting of Geas/Quest involves talking to the target in order to instruct them on what to do. Some GM's would have a problem with detailed instructions being instantly comprehended by the target without you actually communicating with the target. Whether you can successfully cast a Still version of the spell and never speak to the target could also be up for debate.
Ok Thanks folks.
I appreciate the clarifications.
Now I have another question.
Can I hang a Geas/Quest on a Greater Glyph of Warding?
I do not see why not, but it just seems mean.
Yes, if your GM says so. Possible reasons why they might disallow it:
1.) Balance — Getting around the 10 minute casting time would upset most GM's.
2.) Technicality — Glyph of Warding can only apply a harmful spell, which Geas/Glyph might not qualify as. Geas/Quest is vague about its limitations, but does say it cannot be used to make the target cause their own death. It also doesn't have any ill effects if the target follows the instructions, so, depending on what the wording is, it might not be at all harmful to the target, subject to GM discretion.
3.) Rules Ambiguity — Part of the casting of Geas/Quest involves talking to the target in order to instruct them on what to do. Some GM's would have a problem with detailed instructions being instantly comprehended by the target without you actually communicating with the target. Whether you can successfully cast a Still version of the spell and never speak to the target could also be up for debate.
Ah, ty for the response.
I am the GM in question, I just try to make sure I live inside the rules.
My players are a very optimized 5 person group of Level 11/tier 5 characters with somewhere between level 14 and 15 WBL depending on individual. (Dazing Fireball arcanist, Charging mythic death from above scimitar wolf riding hunter, Superstitious CAGM Barb, Charisma focused clarion call pally, and Synthesist summoner)
1.) Is not a problem.
2.) I thought all spells without the [Harmless] tag qualified.
3.) Very valid concern but from the text I do not see where it says you must speak to the target only that it must be able to understand you.
Please understand I am not trying to be argumentative, it is just that I am finding preparing a mid teens level cleric challenging and am trying to make sure I understand the rules and live inside them while also playing at the optimization level that my players request.
I do very much appreciate the responses and the help.
Thank you for the response.