Light, one-handed, two-handed and ranged weapons

[Ravingdork]

Core makes it clear that a ranged weapon is not a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon. These are defined categories with specific game rules behind them. One is never another simultaneously.

Then there are things like the Technology Guide, whose weapons tables specifically refer to weapons being both ranged AND one-handed or two-handed.

So, which is it?

[Chess Pwn]

Well, just because in core there's not any weapons that are two categories doesn't mean that it can't be in two categories. I think the biggest reason for it is for 2WF.

[Skylancer4]

Ravingdork wrote:

Core makes it clear that a ranged weapon is not a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon. These are defined categories with specific game rules behind them. One is never another simultaneously.

Then there are things like the Technology Guide, whose weapons tables specifically refer to weapons being both ranged AND one-handed or two-handed.

So, which is it?

It is what the rules say. It isn't like it would be the first time a supplement changed the status quo.

[graystone]

Ah... Did you see the firearm rules? They are one and two handed ranged weapons. So it's not the Technology Guide where it started. Even in core, you see crossbow that are in essence light or one handed weapons.

[blackbloodtroll]

Some do fall into multiple categories.

[Qaianna]

There are some rules about using two-handed thrown weapons, if memory serves. Namely, chucking that spear (two-handed) at someone is a full-round action, while tossing a shortspear (one-handed) or dagger (light) is a normal standard action. Bows are always two-handed, crossbows prefer it, and slings are one-handers (but two to load). Not quite sure what rules you'd have to look up for someone using two slings at once aside from 'that looks weird'.

[KainPen]

your thinking of throwing improvised weapons that are not meant to be used as throwing weapon such as throwing a great sword. For the type of action it takes up, throwing as spear normal attacks, you need quick draw to throw more then one because it a move action to draw another other wise.

There are several feats that will allow you throw improvised weapons faster. Also you can throw a spear two-handed but you only get normal str damage, to get 1.5 you need two-handed thrower feat.

[Ravingdork]

graystone wrote:

Ah... Did you see the firearm rules? They are one and two handed ranged weapons. So it's not the Technology Guide where it started. Even in core, you see crossbow that are in essence light or one handed weapons.

The fact that there are other examples prior to the Technology Guide doesn't really alter my question.

It was my understanding that light, one-handed, and two-handed ALWAYS categorically referred to melee weapons and ranged ALWAYS categorically referred to ranged weapons, with no overlap of terms.

A crossbow isn't a light, one-handed or two-handed weapon. It's a ranged weapon that can be fired with one hand and requires two hands to reload. A longsword or bastard sword may be wielded with two hands, but they are still one-handed weapons. There is no overlap in the categorization (which isn't necessarily the same as the hands it actually takes to use).

Qaianna wrote:

There are some rules about using two-handed thrown weapons, if memory serves. Namely, chucking that spear (two-handed) at someone is a full-round action, while tossing a shortspear (one-handed) or dagger (light) is a normal standard action. Bows are always two-handed, crossbows prefer it, and slings are one-handers (but two to load). Not quite sure what rules you'd have to look up for someone using two slings at once aside from 'that looks weird'.

• Longspear - Two-handed
  
• Shortspear - One-handed
  
• Dagger - Light
  
• Bows - Ranged
  
• Slings - Ranged
  

There is no categorical overlap in any of your examples.

[graystone]

Look at the Two-Handed Thrower feat. Look at the normal section. "Throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action."

Then look at the benefits. You get 1.5 damage and standard action attack unless you have quickdraw then full attack.

[Ravingdork]

graystone wrote:

Look at the Two-Handed Thrower feat. Look at the normal section. "Throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action."

Then look at the benefits. You get 1.5 damage and standard action attack unless you have quickdraw t1hen full attack.

Two-Handed Thrower:

[LINK]

Two-Handed Thrower (Combat)
You hurl weapons with both hands and with great force, sometimes using a whirling technique to send your weapon flying through the air at tremendous speeds.

Prerequisite: Str 15.
Benefit: Whenever you use two hands to throw a one-handed or two-handed weapon, you gain a bonus on damage rolls equal to 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus. Using two hands to throw any weapon requires only a standard action for you. If you also have the Quick Draw feat, you can throw two-handed weapons at your full normal rate of attacks.
Normal: You add your Strength bonus on thrown weapon damage, regardless of available hands. Throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action.

The standard assumption is that it falls into only ONE of the aforementioned categories and thus only adds your strength to damage as a thrown weapon (note that this is a rule of ALL thrown weapons, and has nothing to do with the categories I've mentioned). You need feats and other abilities to break those assumptions.

But are firearms, like said feats and abilities, meant to be a break in that assumption? Or did the editors just get lazy with their shorthand rules? (And they are actually just ranged weapons that can be fired with X hands?)

[graystone]

I think they expected people to want to TWF with firearms so it was just much easier to give them a handedness to solve that problem right from the start.

[Kalahen]

I have always assumed that firearms (and thus the tech firearms from the tech guide) were meant to break that rule. Wielding a pistol is different from a light crossbow and wielding a rifle is very different from wielding a longbow. I think the tech guide may have benefited from reprinting some of the firearm rules which I assume apply but see no direct proof.

[blackbloodtroll]

A Dagger is a Ranged weapon too.

You can enchant it with Ranged Weapon Enchantments.

[Qaianna]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

A Dagger is a Ranged weapon too.

You can enchant it with Ranged Weapon Enchantments.

Come to think of it, a halfling sling staff is a projectile ranged weapon ... that in melee is treated as a club, too (presumably a one-hander).

I guess the more important question for the OP is ... what's the actual objective you're looking for?

[Baumfluch]

i didnt find a solution to that Problem either, and i was searching quite a time. in our case a Party member (halfling) wanted to go for a medium sized heavy x-bow.
I thought: "no way, going 1 size category up, makes the weapon category go one step up. so x-bow = 2 handed, bigger x-bow: cant wield it".
Then we found the core actually never calls the x-bow or any other ranged weapon one or 2 handed. Only says it requires two Hands to reload.
At the end we said, we wont let the halfling shoot a medium sized crossbow, but i also found other opinions.

especially ravingdorks Point, that you can fire the xbow one handed, makes the argumentations hard. because Shooting it one handed is possible with a -4 Penalty. so you´d kinda have to say you could a 1 size bigger heavy x-bow with 2 Hands, but take the Penalty for size and take the Penalty for one-handed Shooting and you cant reload it. sounded kinda weird to us.

whats the reason for your question? perhaps it would help finding an answer?

[thaX]

Using the oversized crossbow would need two hands and be at the -2 penalty. (since it can be use one handed otherwise.) I believe that the biggest (Heavy?) crossbow needs two hands to wield normally, but I could be wrong.

Bows are two handed. Period. It still can be held in one hand as one fights with a melee weapon with the other. (Perhaps an arrow as an improvised weapon?)

Firearms have been silly with their own rules and should have never targeted with Touch Attacks, but that is another discussion. That they denote handyness when other Ranged weapons do not shouldn't be to problematic. Weapons have a basic standard rules wise, main and off hand use, and most weapons are plain in what you use to wield the weapon. When writing up Firearms, I suppose, it was elaborated to include Handyness for each firearm to make clear what is needed to wield them. It also could be that the particular designer saw the Melee weapon chart and copied the format and included the handyness by mistake.

To me, some are making it more complicated than it actually needs to be.

[Gwen Smith]

thaX wrote:

Using the oversized crossbow would need two hands and be at the -2 penalty. (since it can be use one handed otherwise.) I believe that the biggest (Heavy?) crossbow needs two hands to wield normally, but I could be wrong.

Bows are two handed. Period. It still can be held in one hand as one fights with a melee weapon with the other. (Perhaps an arrow as an improvised weapon?)

Firearms have been silly with their own rules and should have never targeted with Touch Attacks, but that is another discussion. That they denote handyness when other Ranged weapons do not shouldn't be to problematic. Weapons have a basic standard rules wise, main and off hand use, and most weapons are plain in what you use to wield the weapon. When writing up Firearms, I suppose, it was elaborated to include Handyness for each firearm to make clear what is needed to wield them. It also could be that the particular designer saw the Melee weapon chart and copied the format and included the handyness by mistake.

To me, some are making it more complicated than it actually needs to be.

"You need two hands to wield X ranged weapon" and "X is a two-handed weapon" are not the same thing. That's the entire point of the discussion.

Now, how much that distinction matters to you is a completely different question, but there is a distinction there. It primarily matters for the purposes of size categories when you want to use off-sized ranged weapons or when you have to argue down the player that insists he gets 1.5 X strength on ranged weapon with the "two handed weapon" text.

It also matters if you're trying to maintain consistent definitions through the text, and expect "one-handed/two-handed weapons" to be defining characteristics of melee weapons, each with specific rules details attached to it.

[Ravingdork]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

A Dagger is a Ranged weapon too.

You can enchant it with Ranged Weapon Enchantments.

A dagger is a melee weapon that can be thrown. It's close, but not quite the same (see Gwen Smith's post above for what I mean).

Thrown weapons are treated as ranged weapons in many respects, and have their own rules (such as being able to apply your strength modifier to their damage rolls and having only 5 range increments).

Gwen Smith wrote:

"You need two hands to wield X ranged weapon" and "X is a two-handed weapon" are not the same thing. That's the entire point of the discussion.

Exactly right!

[Bandw2]

Ravingdork wrote:

Core makes it clear that a ranged weapon is not a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon. These are defined categories with specific game rules behind them. One is never another simultaneously.

Then there are things like the Technology Guide, whose weapons tables specifically refer to weapons being both ranged AND one-handed or two-handed.

So, which is it?

ranged weapons still need to define how many hands it takes to wield it.

[KahnyaGnorc]

The Core Rulebook doesn't split ranged-only weapons into handedness categories, but does it say anywhere that handedness categories and ranged-only weaponry are mutually exclusive and never the two shall meet?

[Ravingdork]

Bandw2 wrote:

ranged weapons still need to define how many hands it takes to wield it.

Yes, but that's different than categorical classification.

KahnyaGnorc wrote:

The Core Rulebook doesn't split ranged-only weapons into handedness categories, but does it say anywhere that handedness categories and ranged-only weaponry are mutually exclusive and never the two shall meet?

Now that you mention it, I don't believe so.

Looking at the Core Rulebook equipment chapter, I noticed that it has two different methods of classifying weapons:

Melee / Ranged

Light / One-Handed / Two-Handed

So perhaps you're on to something.

[blackbloodtroll]

That's exactly what I am saying.

From the Dagger, to the Axe Musket, to the Halfling Sling Staff, some weapons fall into multiple categories.

[KahnyaGnorc]

Common mistake: thinking an absence of proof is a proof of absence.

[Melkiador]

From ultimate combat.

Quote:

The firearms section presented in this chapter covers everything you need to know to introduce firearms into your campaign. Firearms are broken down into early and advanced types, as well as into one- and two-handed weapons.

[Ravingdork]

KahnyaGnorc wrote:

Common mistake: thinking an absence of proof is a proof of absence.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing when I first read your post, but probably not in the same way you were. :P

[Baumfluch]

thaX wrote:

Using the oversized crossbow would need two hands and be at the -2 penalty. (since it can be use one handed otherwise.) I believe that the biggest (Heavy?) crossbow needs two hands to wield normally, but I could be wrong.

Bows are two handed. Period. It still can be held in one hand as one fights with a melee weapon with the other. (Perhaps an arrow as an improvised weapon?)

to the first:

simply no. A crossbow is not a two-handed-weapon. It is a ranged weapon. Its designed to be shot with 2 Hands but you can also shoot it with 1 Hand at a Penalty of -4.
To see if you can alter a weapons size, the rule says there are 3 Levels of how "difficult" it is to handle a weapon. ist (in this order)
light - one-handed - two handed. If you increase weapon size you go 1 step to the right for each size category. if you go beyond two handed, you cant use it anymore. same goes for makin weapons smaller. so a human cound not use a small (halfling sized) kukri, and a halfling could not use a medium(human sized) greataxe.

in order to determine if you can use an over oder undersized crossbow, you would cant apply that rule. CRB doesnt call it a "one-handed" or "two-handed" weapon. both light and heavy crossbow are usually fired 2-handed, but explicitly allowed to be fired 1-handed. they do both require 2 Hands to reload.

there is simply no way by raw to apply that rule, since they are not light, one or two handed but so called "ranged weapons". you also cant easily put them into one of the categories, because they can be shot one and two handed. only reloading takes 2 Hands, but thats an item-property the usual light one-handed and two-handed do not have, so you could say its irrelevant.
its also stupid to say the rule wouldnt go for them, cause ppl would come up with a kolossal heavy crossbow and blow the s!%& out of their enemies.

i did a lot of Research on that, and guess it should be houseruled.
we say: ranged weapons are treatet as one-handed or two-handed in order for using oversized weapons, depending on how they are designt to be shot. (heavy crossbow -> two handed, light crossbow -> two handed, handcrossbow -> one-handed).
i see no other way but houseruling it, no solution to be found in the rulebooks.

[thaX]

I was unsure if both hands was needed for the Heavy Crossbow exclusively, but I agree, able to use one handed (with the penalty) would likely mean that one could use an oversized one Two Handed (With a -2 for the size difference)

The bow, however, does need to be used with two hands. It specifically says so in it's description.

The main thrust is if you don't think there is any rule about it specifically, one would simply use the weapons as they are and not be able to use under/over sized ones at all.

Or be logical about it and treat it as a one handed weapon that can be more accurate when used with two hands. Then the above statement in this post would be true. That there isn't an "entry" in a specific chart should not be as much of an issue when it is denoted elsewhere on how to use the darn thing.

[Baumfluch]

thaX wrote:

I was unsure if both hands was needed for the Heavy Crossbow exclusively, but I agree, able to use one handed (with the penalty) would likely mean that one could use an oversized one Two Handed (With a -2 for the size difference)

[...]

The main thrust is if you don't think there is any rule about it specifically, one would simply use the weapons as they are and not be able to use under/over sized ones at all.

Or be logical about it and treat it as a one handed weapon that can be more accurate when used with two hands. Then the above statement in this post would be true. That there isn't an "entry" in a specific chart should not be as much of an issue when it is denoted elsewhere on how to use the darn thing.

first of all:

can you reaload an oversized crossbow? you say it acts like a one handed weapon in order to shoot it, because you can also shoot it with 1 Hand. then you also Need to say: it acts like a two-handed weapon in order to reload it, since it requires 2 Hands for it.
So using that logic straight you could shoot it, but not reload.

if you want to legalize it, saying it is a one handed, its totally not worth carrying a propper sized xbow anymore.
1d10 goes to 2d8. so expected damage per shot goes from 5.5 to 9. thats 163% of its "usual" damage. but you only lose 10% hitchance (-2).
Or you go for an oversized light crossbow. it will deal 2d6 wich is 7 expected damage, at a -2 Penalty. just as strong as a normal sized heavy xbow, but you just managed to get a "improvised heavy crossbow" that Needs only a move Action to reload instead of a full-round-action.
I dont think its meant to be played that way. I think oversized weapons are for archetypes, or Szenarios that you find a weapon that is too big, but its Magic and still better than your old one. if you kill ogres or sth and they carried a Magic weapon e.g. Or perhaps for some style-builds using like 2 small falcatas making them light weapons for TWF or sth.
I don´t think it should be a massive boost to use an oversized weapon as your standard weapon no matter what class you are.

thaX wrote:

The bow, however, does need to be used with two hands. It specifically says so in it's description.

agreed.

[Bandw2]

maybe it's simply to stop people from grabbing large sized railguns and the like...

[Nawtyit]

Ravingdork wrote:

So, which is it?

Why does it matter? What are you trying to do?

[Ravingdork]

It was my understanding the the up-size down-size handedness rule only applied to melee weapons.

Ranged weapons are not light, one-handed, or two-handed, so I fail to see how the rule could apply to them at all.

Nawtyit wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

So, which is it?

Why does it matter? What are you trying to do?

Knowledge always matters. I'm trying to understand how the rules work.

[Melkiador]

The one or two handed is a rule for Firearms, as I quoted above. There shouldn't be such a thing as a light ranged weapon.

[Ravingdork]

Melkiador, so the rules for light, one-handed, and two-handed weapons only apply to melee weapons AND firearms then?

[Bandw2]

Ravingdork wrote:

It was my understanding the the up-size down-size handedness rule only applied to melee weapons.

Ranged weapons are not light, one-handed, or two-handed, so I fail to see how the rule could apply to them at all.

well I mean the tech guns are a bit different

[Melkiador]

Ravingdork wrote:

Melkiador, so the rules for light, one-handed, and two-handed weapons only apply to melee weapons AND firearms then?

Not light. Firearms are explicitly one or two handed. A firearm that is light is not in the original definition of firearms, though a later source may have introduced one.

[blackbloodtroll]

Firearms have their own specific rules.

I believe, that a Ranged weapon, is only a Ranged weapon, unless, it can be used in melee.

Then, it must fall into one of the three melee categories, Light, One-handed, Two-handed, as well.

This means, some weapon can fall into multiple categories.

[Doomed Hero]

I rule these sorts of situations with the same logic that governs half-orc and half-elves.

Weapons that count as more than one type, are treated as both for all effects, with any conflicts erring on the side of what is most beneficial to the wielder