I read your article when KP posted it. Really enjoyed it.
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You have a very odd opinion of the Pathfinder Bard.
In my limited Skald experience so far the most useful and differentiating aspect of the class is the ability to share rage powers. Making allies rage sounds exciting, but the bonuses to attack and damage aren’t any better than those a Bard would typically grant, and they don’t help PCs with their own Rage to hit or hurt things. The rage powers can be very nice though. Even simple stuff like giving everybody +2 AC or making another PC’s mammoth companion grow claws can be fun and helpful, and there are certainly Rage Powers better than those. Rage Powers can open up new options in combat, and stuff like making everybody grow horns could have a roleplaying impact too (Like, "Accept Hell's Fury, my friends!")
I’ve spent a lot of time playing PCs and cohorts with Bard as their primary or only class in the past, and I find it interesting that you value jack-of-all-trades when I couldn’t even remember what it does without looking it up. I haven’t used Fascinate or Suggestion much either. They could have been helpful in certain games, unfortunately those just generally weren’t the games I was playing a Bard in. Combat, on the other hand, is important in almost every Pathfinder game, so having combat focused powers seems like a little less of a gamble to me.
The reduced skill points were kind of painful at first, but since the group with the Skald cohort started using Background Skills that relieved the pressure quite a bit. The same group also has a Bard PC, and while it seems like they’d overlap a bit I don’t think you can really have too many folks casting Saving Finale or Gallant Inspiration. Both have saved PC lives multiple times in that campaign.
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The Skald really suffers from its inflexibility, IMO. It's the only support class that can't be put into any team that doesn't already have a support class and succeed.
The Skald is extremely effective when your frontline is covered by a Slayer and your caster's summons, but is next to worthless when you have a Barbarian and a Magus.
The Skald really suffers from its inflexibility, IMO. It's the only support class that can't be put into any team that doesn't already have a support class and succeed.
The Skald is extremely effective when your frontline is covered by a Slayer and your caster's summons, but is next to worthless when you have a Barbarian and a Magus.
Skald at 3+ is terrifying if someone is summoning, even if it's just 1d3 eagles. Lesser Spirit Totem is keyed off of your Charisma for all your allies.
What I've found in PFS is that my Skald is frequently choosing not to spend the action starting his Inspired Rage because the party composition doesn't synergize with it. I've had Magus + Cleric + Wizard + Rogue tables while playing the Skald. With that line-up, I'm better off just going to town in melee instead of spending the action to perform. I've also had characters that could mechanically benefit (like a grappler) reject the song because of the spirits from LST due to character reasons.
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but is next to worthless when you have a Barbarian and a Magus.
Or if you have any of the new dex-to-damage characters. A Swashbuckler, Daring Champ, or Unchained Rogue would likely just be annoyed that you'd lowered their AC. Same with my rapier Bard.
In a home group they can be great, but I wouldn't play one in society play as there are too many groups they wouldn't do much for.
Why is the skald next to worthless with either of those classes?
The barbarian gets to use his rage bonuses on the skald's performance rounds.
The magus, if not built with Dex in mind (which does happen, contrary to popular builds), can benefit as well.
Well, don't accept their song if you don't want it.
For me, I've been working on Rocking Horse, a heavy metal symphonic centaur. While inspire Rage will be a big one for me, I've got some ideas of picking up a few of the Masterpieces as well.
With Recovered rage + rage spell, he'd recover his raging song back rather quickly.
Spirit Totem tree is just deadly. It might just be a 1d8 points of damage But that, plus 1d6+cha, for every single ally around there.. Its a lot of damage that could be thrown around.
Why is the skald next to worthless with either of those classes?
The barbarian gets to use his rage bonuses on the skald's performance rounds.
The magus, if not built with Dex in mind (which does happen, contrary to popular builds), can benefit as well.
The Barbarian is basically just getting free rage rounds... and in return can't use the rage powers she picked for herself. That is Bad.
The Magus wants to be casting at the same time he attacks; any round in which he uses spell combat is a round in which accepting raging song is not possible.
Well, don't accept their song if you don't want it.
You would never say that about a bard's song. All martially inclined characters, of the full or 3/4 BAB variety, love to get Inspired. The same cannot be said of Raging Song. I love the Skald, but the class has to have a massive asterisk on it indicating that it is not suitable for all parties, or even most of them.
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Why is the skald next to worthless with either of those classes?
The barbarian gets to use his rage bonuses on the skald's performance rounds.
The magus, if not built with Dex in mind (which does happen, contrary to popular builds), can benefit as well.The Barbarian is basically just getting free rage rounds... and in return can't use the rage powers she picked for herself. That is Bad.
The Magus wants to be casting at the same time he attacks; any round in which he uses spell combat is a round in which accepting raging song is not possible.
Well, don't accept their song if you don't want it.You would never say that about a bard's song. All martially inclined characters, of the full or 3/4 BAB variety, love to get Inspired. The same cannot be said of Raging Song. I love the Skald, but the class has to have a massive asterisk on it indicating that it is not suitable for all parties, or even most of them.
This, so much this.
The barbarian part is especially galling - when a barbarian pairs better with a bard than with a skald, the design has failed somewhere. The recent Rage FAQ only solidified it.
Well, don't accept their song if you don't want it.You would never say that about a bard's song. All martially inclined characters, of the full or 3/4 BAB variety, love to get Inspired. The same cannot be said of Raging Song. I love the Skald, but the class has to have a massive asterisk on it indicating that it is not suitable for all parties, or even most of them.
Well yeah. Because there is no negatives to the normal bard song. At least its not a frenzy berserker causing his allies to bleed out when he goes mad.
If the skald isn't suitable for the party, make your own perhaps? Thats pretty much what I'm doing with mine. I've got Sex drugs and Rock and roll, I'll bring in a few groupies, and make my own moshpit so that the MAMoK could have their own little party if thats what they want.
Of course the Moshpit style might not be conducive to the tables that kinda don't really allow you to have a whole bunch of groupies for your band.
Are... you entirely sure you're playing Pathfinder?
I was under the assumption that you can accept the Skald's song even if you're already raging and get to use both your own Rage Powers and those the Skald grants you. Since somebody mentioned a new Rage FAQ I checked and found that's probably not the case though. This makes having a Skald cohort in a party with a Barbarian pretty disappointing and has me thinking that maybe my Viking PC shouldn't bother to take any Rage Powers of his own.
"Skalds, we make Fighters more like Barbarians and help Vikings savor their already painful sacrifice of Weapon Training."
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Are... you entirely sure you're playing Pathfinder?
Nope. I'm playing Lutehero: The RPG. Have to get to level seven, then I can get another bandmate, and a bunch of groupies. I might be able to pick up a dog somewhere.
but is next to worthless when you have a Barbarian and a Magus.Or if you have any of the new dex-to-damage characters. A Swashbuckler, Daring Champ, or Unchained Rogue would likely just be annoyed that you'd lowered their AC. Same with my rapier Bard.
You lose 1 point of AC and gain rage powers, extra HP, and a bonus to all will saves. Skald might not be best for everyone but dex-to-damage characters still benefit from it.
Also, since my party doesn't have a barbarian in it, I kinda didn't pay attention to this, but Why is the barbarian a bad pairing with Skald?
At first I kinda thought oh yeah, moral bonuses.. but then looking back at the skald, I saw something.
If an ally has her own rage class ability (such as barbarian's rage, bloodrager's bloodrage, or skald's inspired rage), she may use the Strength, Constitution, and Will saving throw bonuses, as well as AC penalties, based on her own ability and level instead of those from the skald (still suffering no fatigue afterward).
Having a Party of Skalds and Barbs, each of them with recovered rage, you can have the barbs fairly easily recover their lost rounds of rage that they might have used up earlier, especially with their rage powers that use up rounds of rage.
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Also, since my party doesn't have a barbarian in it, I kinda didn't pay attention to this, but Why is the barbarian a bad pairing with Skald?
At first I kinda thought oh yeah, moral bonuses.. but then looking back at the skald, I saw something.
Having a Party of Skalds and Barbs, each of them with recovered rage, you can have the barbs fairly easily recover their lost rounds of rage that they might have used up earlier, especially with their rage powers that use up rounds of rage.
If an ally has her own rage class ability (such as barbarian's rage, bloodrager's bloodrage, or skald's inspired rage), she may use the Strength, Constitution, and Will saving throw bonuses, as well as AC penalties, based on her own ability and level instead of those from the skald (still suffering no fatigue afterward).
The problem is that a barbarian would rather have a bard 95% of the time.
Skald+Barbarian = free rage with someone else's rage powers
Bard+Barbarian = all your rage bonuses plus all the bard's bonuses.
As for free rage, I've never seen a barbarian run out of rage past the lowest levels.
I see. So the reason everyone is going with the hyperbole of the Skald being useless is actually just because the bard gives more power ontop of the barbarians thing.
Not that Skalds have no ability to offer stuff to the barb.
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I see. So the reason everyone is going with the hyperbole of the Skald being useless is actually just because the bard gives more power ontop of the barbarians thing.
Not that Skalds have no ability to offer stuff to the barb.
Pretty much. It's not nothing... it's just a benefit (with associated hindrance) that most don't find very enticing at all.
Sincere question - in your campaigns, do you find barbarians running out of rage on a regular basis? That would give the skald more usefulness to a barbarian (although being unable to use her own rage powers is still undesirable).
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For the record, I love the skald. It's just hampered by the way the game works, especially by comparison. Inspire courage always works, and for everybody.
Inspired rage is undesirable for a big cross-section of parties in combat. Wizards and magi will almost never want the effects (barring specific builds). Semi-casters like inquisitors and warpriests will need to drop in and out of it. Full martials will love it, but the bard was doing them pretty well as it was. For non-barbarians, the skald's granted rage powers can be vicious... but that's the heart of my problem.
Skalds empower non-barbarians the most. Barbarians are most empowered by bards rather than skalds. Barbarians and skalds are thematically linked, yet the two are worse for each other than their counterparts.
And, no offense meant (nor taken), but I never meant to say that the skald is useless. Handing Greater Beast Totem out to a ranger, a fighter, and a paladin is insane. A skald alongside summoned monsters is one of the most ridiculous things I've seen in a while. Of course, that party also had a bard. ^_^
Actually, I tend to find no one actually plays barbarians. We've got a witch and a fighter and my soon to be skald.
Like I said, I'm planning on going to level 7 and picking up leadership to have a bard to go with my skald, cause I don't really like black or death metal that much, however there are some songs that end up falling more into Symphonic Metal that combines Opera with the more growling types of metal, like Nymphetamine
I'm also planning on doing summoning, as that gets crazy amplification with the spirit totem.
Yep. Nothing like like having 30feet radius of death on top of everyone's normal attack abilities. Of course with the proper application of summoning monsters, additional party members and the like.