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Pathfinder 2nd needs to have the ability to choose between 2 different alignment and styled antipaladins. The lawful evil one can be like a hell knight or dark paladin, being evil and corrupt, but not an abject monster. The chaotic evil one though is a singularity of shadow, a living monster, a inhuman being that destroys more lives that it ever saves. Corruption is likely going to be their shared ability, but the way it is used is very different. One bends others minds and souls to his will, forcing enemies to serve until you have no further use for them. The other bends and breaks reality with a single touch, enabling them to blacken the ground they stand on, make life wither or twist by their very presence. Such foes can be very tough as they wield their corruption as a weapon, and such allies make all but the Bravest, stubbornest, or foolish of foes quake in fear.
That is why I suggested "make a new one, but don't discart the old one".Don't want it.
It's not needed.
Several books full of variant rules, plus one that totally rewrote four base classes, show that unless the basic system is flawed there is no need for a 2nd ED.
Do NOT go all D&D/Shadowrun/CoC/WoD on me guys. I've dumped systems for that. In fact I've dumped three of the four I just mentioned.And then you're asking them to support 2 systems? Which one do they make AP's and modules for? If you put in extra text to support two systems, then you're either talking about making smaller modules, or two seaprate production lines.
IF Paizo makes a Pathfinder 2.0, that means that 1.0 HAS TO go into the dustbin. You either support two systems badly.... and go the way of TSR, or one system well. When then makes it a question of 1.0 or 2.0... And have you all forgotten how Paizo got it's initial base of players in the first place?
The people working on one system probably wouldn't (and in some case, should not) work on the other. What it would mean for campaign settings and the like is a good question.
Edit: Side Note: Paizo could also be the publisher for a 3rd party developer or two.
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And then you're asking them to support 2 systems? Which one do they make AP's and modules for? If you put in extra text to support two systems, then you're either talking about making smaller modules, or two seaprate production lines.
IF Paizo makes a Pathfinder 2.0, that means that 1.0 HAS TO go into the dustbin. You either support two systems badly.... and go the way of TSR, or one system well. When then makes it a question of 1.0 or 2.0... And have you all forgotten how Paizo got it's initial base of players in the first place?
First off, it's more accurate to say PF 1.7 or something, not PF 1.0.
Secondly, how many people do we see playing Pathfinder Alpha or Beta? A new edition does not require any of these to be true:
1.) invalidate older setting material.
2.) a completely new system
3.) massive changes
4.) anything needs to go into the dustbin
5.) Paizo needs to loose money for old, old material (3.5 modules for instance)
6.) 3PP material is made useless
7.) a.) there would need to be 2 systems
7.) b.) there would need to be 2 supported systems
7.) c.) Unchained shows us it's not as impossible or difficult as it may even seem
8.) at any risk of actually splitting the fan base (in any significant way)
9.) that it can not be backwards compatible with either existing PF material or 3.5 material.
And in fact, the only reason any of these thing would be true is if Paizo intentionally went out of their way to make it so, which doesn't seem like it would be likely, all based on the facts we have had for years now. We have seen the evolution from 3.0 to 3.5 to PF Alpha to Beta to PF to various other aspects (Mythic for example) leading up to a most current Unchained.
It didn't split the fan base when it went from Alpha to Beta, or from Beta to Core. 3.5 to PF at all actually took a split fan base and solidified it, and very notably increased Paizo's sales and products, not TSR'd it.
None of these arguments have any real rational basis or really much reason to be a valid concern outside of personal opinion and preference. Not unless you assume that they would be intentional changes, with the intention, for example, of making old books which they still actively sale no longer usable or want to cut their fan base down he middle by making a totally different system. It doesn't follow.
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Everyone who downloaded Alpha and Beta (including yours truly) knew that these weren't the final version of the game system, and I'm pretty sure that no one who obtained it, or even went as far as to buy the Beta book, expected to be playing them as their long term game system. virtually all of Alpha and Beta's players either moved on to Pathfinder Release, or went to another game system entirely.
And yet we instead assume that PF 1E is somehow different, or that the same thing wouldn't happen with PF 2E? I never saw, and still do not see PF as the final version any more than D&D 1st - whatever comes after this current one. I'm actually rather surprised PF in it's existing form has lasted so long relying more on the bandaid fixes approach.
TSR however was having problems having to split it's design effort between Basic and Advanced, and putting out content to support multiple game worlds, Mystara, Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and a bunch of second stringers, Spelljammer, Birthright, ad infinitum. it was a very large factor in the collapse that would have made D+D a footnote if WOTC hadn't bought the company with it's flush cash reserve from Magic the Gathering.
True, but there is also the fact that TSR was corporately split, in a lot of debt for unrelated things, and also didn't have the same in house publishing setup that Paizo does, which where all more direct factors in TSR failing than their multiple worlds, which most fans loved. It was more of a fact that they where put into a position where they could not get their products printed or distributed due to the debt, which they banked on using to pay off the debt. It wasn't until the very end when the multiple worlds/settings, now being unsupported became a factor, but again, indirect.
The role playing game market today being a small fraction of what it once was, simply can't support a TSR any longer. (and the larger market of yore didn't quite support it then.) Right now you have 2 maybe 3 big companies and a bunch of smaller ones dividing a smaller pie. None of them are trying to support multiple game systems and only ONE is trying to support multiple settings, and I'm not sure it's doing that at a profit at this time.
White Wolf/Onyx Path seems to disagree, and in a lot of ways does have a pretty similar set up, with strong PDF and electronic support as well as physical products, as well as available older products for purchase. Not only are they supporting two different settings, (though technically it's more like 15 or so), but clearly at a profit, currently in the process of updating to 2nd Eds for one system and bringing the other out of active retirement.
I mean a kickstarter that ended at $672,899 (needing a measly $70,000) for a single book is no joke, and that is just the straight up Kickstarter/preorder. This was also, at the time, the second highest grossing Kickstarter project ever, and because the original V20 book was not done via Kickstarter, they might have even knocked that out. In comparison, Wraith, a book notorious for being cut early due to lack of sales came in at $295,645 (needing only $50,000).
Shadowrun is making a pretty big comeback, too, and branching out into app games and also having a lot of their adventures and material be pretty system/edition neutral seems to e helping a lot.
WotC has finally just opened up their older edition core books, and specifically the 3.5 Core Books that have been highly requested for a long time.
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Paizo wouldn't get TSR'd if they avoid doing the same mistakes, they already need to increase their workspaces and workforces anyway.
If they separate the Glorion material, even if it's by making it in italics, they can sell the new rules even to those using open game content. That's how 3rd and 3.5 took off. Ebberon, Harn, and Scarred lands all had world books. Orcs, goblins, and undead were all slightly different in their worlds.
Pathfinder had to have it's own world, with new gods, monsters, spells, and feats that wouldn't land them in court. They may have taken their cue from the shining jewel, which had to change the names and other aspects of itself when living city was destroyed. The people running Living City called it a reset, but it was really bad. I don't know what Living Procamper is doing now cause I don't have friends with cars to take me to conventions anymore.
In D&D, Goblins were the inspiration for Minions(like in the movie), while in Glorion, Goblins are proudly illiterate ignoble savages. I've always seen them as evil oompa loompas. Setting and resetting the traps in dungeons without knowing why.
My whole point is, by making the new rules more or less setting neutral, they can profit from new and existing game worlds that have been acting as orphans. Clinging to modified 3.5 core rules while they try to decide where to go from here.
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White Wolf/Onyx Path seems to disagree, and in a lot of ways does have a pretty similar set up, with strong PDF and electronic support as well as physical products, as well as available older products for purchase.
Onyx Path ...
... doesn't have its own store and warehouse
... has a minimum permanent employed staff and relies on hired contributors
... has a business model that isn't built around subscriptions
... is entirely PDF/PoD/Kickstarter based
... does pretty much RPG books, some merch, and not much else
... so, no minis, cards, accessories etc.
... sits in its own niche without having to worry about the 600pd gorilla
... to reiterate: is a really tiny company which is about having the owner + few other guys and the licensor (CCP hf) happy
... which means comparisons between it and Paizo are about as valid and comparing WotC to Chaosium
... meaning yes, they both do p'n'p games for nerds, but here the similarity ends.
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White Wolf/Onyx Path seems to disagree, and in a lot of ways does have a pretty similar set up, with strong PDF and electronic support as well as physical products, as well as available older products for purchase.
Onyx Path ...
... doesn't have its own store and warehouse
They at one time did. They decided it shut it down for cost effectiveness, which lead them to be one of the major forerunners into alternate press and digital media.
... has a minimum permanent employed staff and relies on hired contributors
They actually had a pretty large staff until they shut down work on the MMO and the layoffs that followed a few years back. A similar thing happened prior to that around the end of the original WoD or when WotC took their licenses back for Ravenloft.
... has a business model that isn't built around subscriptions
Yes they do.
... is entirely PDF/PoD/Kickstarter based
Not entirely. Kickstarter has been a pretty amazing tool, but like I said, V20, and a few other books since have not been Kickstarted at all. And likewise, not all of their products have been print of demand. What they instead do is have a run of the books, and then after a little while convert it to print on demand instead. Sometimes the print on demand option is available up front, which allows other more customizable options, like getting a full color book in black and white or getting a normally hardcover book in soft cover. It's actually something that might have been a huge boon to Paizo, had it been an option at the time. I get a lot of emails from Paizo with discounts on a lot of the older material. The large backstock still in their warehouse is also the number one given reason why they will not update some of those old products (like Legacy of Fire from 3.5 to PF ed like they did for Rise of the Runelords), as it essentially assures those books will not ever sell from a warehouse backlog, and understandable.
... does pretty much RPG books, some merch, and not much else, so, no minis, cards, accessories etc.
You are mistaken on all accounts. They also do novels as well.
Vampire Board GameHunter Board Game
WoD Mini's (they also did Vampire and Mage)
The Eternal Struggle
RAGE!!!
Most recent novels (like a week ago)
Wraith T-Shirts
Vampire T shirts
W20
M20. . .
Dice. . .
There is plenty more. VTES actally survived long after the original Time of Judgement closed down the original WoD, and peristed after the nWoD came out. It did, last I heard, officially shut down a few years back, but you can still find people playing it and cards for sell. Just picked up a new set of dice, too, a month or three back.
... sits in its own niche without having to worry about the 600pd gorilla
... to reiterate: is a really tiny company which is about having the owner + few other guys and the licensor (CCP hf) happy
... which means comparisons between it and Paizo are about as valid and comparing WotC to Chaosium
... meaning yes, they both do p'n'p games for nerds, but here the similarity ends.
Not so much. Or really, at all.
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Onyx Path didn't develop the MMO, you're confusing them with the original White Wolf which was bought by CCP. In fact, most of the products you're linking and mentioning are by the "old" White Wolf ... which is now defunct, for all practical reasons concerned. The current Onyx Path is something entirely different from the pre-2006 White Wolf.
So if we are comparing the "old" White Wolf with Paizo ... well, didn't White Wolf go belly up due to failure of their restarted settings? Yep, it did. And they sold all their IP to a video game company from Iceland. Not the most glorious death of an established publisher, future reincarnation notwithstanding.
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So if we are comparing the "old" White Wolf with Paizo ... well, didn't White Wolf go belly up due to failure of their restarted settings? Yep, it did. And they sold all their IP to a video game company from Iceland. Not the most glorious death of an established publisher, future reincarnation notwithstanding.
Onyx Path is the new company that allowed them to legally begin license out and produce the older material from when WW and CCP Merged, rather than the other way around. They are different companies yes, but mostly just in a legal sense, which allows new products to directly reference and continue to progress and include older ones. The "old" WW did a similar thing with Swords and Sorcery and Black Dog in a sense.
As for the MMO, I'm not sure if you are referring to the fact it was cancelled or who "owned" it. And while I'm not a fan of the restarted system, clearly it was not a failure at any point as it's all now currently going into the 2nd Ed.
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Paizo wouldn't get TSR'd if they avoid doing the same mistakes, they already need to increase their workspaces and workforces anyway.They have been.
Sounds like only the Workers half, the WorkSpace half would be needed as well.
Edit: I stand corrected
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So if we are comparing the "old" White Wolf with Paizo ... well, didn't White Wolf go belly up due to failure of their restarted settings? Yep, it did. And they sold all their IP to a video game company from Iceland. Not the most glorious death of an established publisher, future reincarnation notwithstanding.Onyx Path is the new company that allowed them to legally begin license out and produce the older material from when WW and CCP Merged, rather than the other way around. They are different companies yes, but mostly just in a legal sense, which allows new products to directly reference and continue to progress and include older ones. The "old" WW did a similar thing with Swords and Sorcery and Black Dog in a sense.
As for the MMO, I'm not sure if you are referring to the fact it was cancelled or who "owned" it. And while I'm not a fan of the restarted system, clearly it was not a failure at any point as it's all now currently going into the 2nd Ed.
OK, let me give you a short rundown on White Wolf/Onyx Path history.
At the height of its strength, White Wolf was a major gaming publisher with RPGs and board games and card games and video games and t-shirts and pop tarts and whatanot, kind of like Paizo of today. However, they took the bold move to scrap all their super-popular publishing lines and reboot them into a new continuity. That didn't go well and ended up with the company in dire straits. The owners eventually sold the assets of the company to CCP (it was officially called a 'merger' but pretty much meant that CCP bought the intellectual property and kept some employees while nixing the entire publishing part). CCP was after an established RPG IP so that they could develop their second big MMO (which ultimately went nowhere and was recently declared dead).
Onyx Path came to being in 2012 when a group of ex-White Wolf people approached CCP in order to strike a deal for licensing to publish p'n'p RPGs. They are now publishing both "original" and "new" WoD stuff, but they're doing it using a very conservative business model and have a skeleton permanent staff with most of the work farmed out to freelancers.
So if you're drawing any parallels, then the current Paizo is a bit like the old White Wolf (minus the whole compete directly with WotC part). And the old White Wolf folded precisely because it toyed around with their core product. The current Onyx Path is different from Paizo on oh so many levels that drawing any comparsions is pretty much moot.
Paizo has Pop Tarts!?!
Are they going to put mini modules on the inside of the box?
It amuses me to take sarcasm literally. :)
Back on topic: I would like for the rogue and monk to get a major OverHaul
Edit: For them to be much better at high level
And mid level.
And upper low level.
yep I totally agree.
Continuing threat can be a rogue talent. No minimum level, Stealth 3+, the rogue attacks once(possibly a surprise attack) and then hides or sneaks. As long as the target doesn't spot the rogue, flanking continues.
The whole "magical story time", along with it's companion "Mother-May-I?" are phrases used to impulse that a system isn't a REAL game, since you don't have to make half-a-dozen skill checks while having a casual conversation with a random barkeeper. You can also be sure that they'll soon imply that you ACTUALLY prefer their game of choice, but you don't realize it because you are blinded by the rose-coloured glasses of nostalgia.
In other words, the person saying it is almost certainly a complete jackass.
I--of course--would disagree with this quite strongly. I just think that those types of games are already better serviced by numerous other systems. "Mother may I" is easy to design and people have designed it a few dozen times.
Those are very real games and games that I enjoy. In fact, I even steal ideas from those games to use as subsystems when running pathfinder (usually rewards for role playing and the like). I still consider them "mother-may-I" games to one extent or another, however.
From Pathfinder, I want abilities that are arbitrated by rules that I know beforehand. I want the satisfaction of considering those rules and rules interaction with the knowledge that I know how the game will ultimately work.