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So, I guess I'm the only one that thinks slayer is halfway between the core rogue and the fighter, and generally less impressive than the ranger.
Of course not. It's a slightly more all-rounder Ranger (because no Favored Enemies/Terrains) that is also slightly weaker because it doesn't get spellcasting. It's still a solid class, though, probably one of the best written in that book.
Why does the curse need to help you heal? The Life mystery does everything you need for that.Blackened and Legalistic.I'm confused. How does that help you heal?
The comment was dual cursed life oracle makes the best healer. I was trying to figure out how "dual cursed" played into "best healer."
Yeah, that's why I like my healers to also be counterspellers or capable of readying actions to disrupt spell casters.
Cleric is numerically a better class, hands-down. It does everything you want in a Divine caster better than the other Divine classes do. {. . .}
How is the Cleric beetter in every way? Some Domains let you do some cool stuff, but Mysteries let you do more cool stuff. Channeling lets you do some cool stuff, but if you take the Life Mystery, you can do that too (unless you want Negative Energy Channeling). As for spells, the Cleric does better if you know what you need AND just how much of it you need each day, but the Oracle can respond to variable demand for the (admittedly limited size of list) of spells known, so the Cleric's main advantage is getting access to new levels of spells earlier; like Sorcerers, Oracles eventually end up with more spells per day (at the intervening levels where later spell level access isn't being a problem).
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If you make a decently optimized Cleric and an Oracle as a generalist, the Cleric is stronger/better. Both benefit from scrolls and wands the same, but the Cleric has three major advantages in that they don't need to worry about things like DC's as much (as a generalist), they get higher level slots a level earlier, and the fact that they can swap out their spells "known" daily, or even hold slots open until needed. Some people also claim that the Cleric can much more easily switch between roles as needed for the party make up, (by swapping out for spells to cover what the party might be missing that day). It's true, but it's also not. The major problem with the Cleric is that basically all choices are made at level one and you are stuck with them from level 2-20+. At other levels, you do get a couple of extra class features, but still you choose those at Cleric level 1, and it's extremely limited even then. That fact is also not conducive to the Cleric as a Generalist, but rather as a Specialist, (though it is possible).
But, that's also about where that stops. A lot of times, with the Cleric list, the higher level spells are not great. It's a common issue where some entire spell levels are jut pretty "meh", and this really hits the generalist the worst. There is also the problem that not many want to play a generalist as either a Cleric or an Oracle, so the idea that a Cleric is a better generalist is mostly irrelevant.
Being a Specialist is where both of the classes really shine. A generalist Cleric or an Oracle can sub as a Battle Priest, but not even close to what a dedicated Battle Cleric or Battle Oracle can do in that specialization. And this is sort of where the Oracle pulls ahead by leaps and bounds. As a Spontaneous caster, who by nature is also a bit less MAD, the Oracle can leave a few spells known open to be able to be competent at other things, but still has a lot of ability to pull ahead in their specialty. Looking at the Battle Priest example, a Cleric basically has to dedicate all or most of their extremely limited Feats to doing it, because they do not really have any other option, besides spells. Everything was chosen at level 1, and Domains are basically going to add between 0 and 4 additional abilities that may augment that (over 20 levels). So every Feat they choose to be a Battle Cleric is one that will make them that much worse as anything else.
On the other hand, the Battle Oracle gets plenty of options throughout there levels, and very few of them are chosen early only. This allows them to much more easily adjust as they level up. SO if a Cleric wants to go the Tripping Chain Route, and then begins discovers that it's not as effective later on, they are kind of stuck, having spent a large portion of their resources. The Oracle, though, can simply decide to go another route, taking those Feats as a lose, but getting plenty of other options to go a different route, but also along the way so they can see what sorts of things are more or less effective for their campaign.
The Cleric is basically stuck with just their spells then, which is nearly an identical list. The Oracle gets fewer known but more per day while the Cleric gets all of them "known", but a smaller selection. The Cleric is also very restricted in their specialty spells (Domain Spells) while the Oracle gets fewer of them, but can cast them as often as they want, and often also gets free abilities that augment them as well.
The Cleric is stuck also with what they have prepped that day, which has the potential to be better, but often is not. The Oracle on the other hand, can cast what is needed on the spot, which is extremely relevant for the particular Spell List they both share. A cleric might have one Remove Poison spell. The Oracle, though, can cast it as many times as needed. This assumes that both of them have that spell, which al in all, is pretty close to about the same chance. A cleric can prep it, but if they didn't they are screwed. An Oracle can Know it, but if they didn't, they are screwed. Being able to go back to town and prep it tomorrow is often irrelevant when you need it right now. And both have the same chance of having a Scroll or Wand of it, in which case casting it will have the same exact effect (DC, CL, etc. . .) A lot of the Remove/Cure Ailment spells, however, are very high candidates for both Clerics and Oracles to have in Wand/Scroll form, because they come up somewhat often (as a true threat), but not often enough to risk having a wasted Spell Slot/Known on. The single advantage that Clerics have here is that they can potentially cast them 1 level earlier. But, that assumes they took that spell, (arguable, as there are a lot of spells that fit into this sort of category), and also just happened to prep the right amount to cover the party, (extremely unlikely). One of those cases where it looks better on paper than it usually actually is in play.
Finally, the Oracle, as a Specialist, just has so many more options and Features to really build into their focus (whatever that might be). So, basically if you have a dedicated Oracle and a dedicated Cleric with all other things being equal, (same level, same wealth, same competency in building, access to Feats, etc. . .), the Oracle really outshines the Cleric in basically every way. A Battle Oracle can get both all Martial Weapons and Heavy Armor as a Class Feature, and using that Feat slot for something else while the Cleric has to use one of their very few Feats to get just one of those. The Cleric gets 1 special spell prepped from their Domain, while the Oracle can really build around their free bonus spells at will. It also doesn't help that approx. half of the Bonus Domain spells are already on the generic list that any Cleric or Oracle can already cast. For Oracles though, who instead pick what spells they know and can cast them as often as needed, getting a free extra spell, even if it's one they could pick normally, is very cool, allowing you to instead pick another option in it's place.
The fact that the Cleric Spell List is so limited also really favors the Oracles Spells Know much more than the Clerics, I can cast any of them. A lot of the options are either very limited or very similar to other spells on the same list, which allows the Oracle to cover a lot more ground. The Spell List contains a lot of near redundancy, and it's made worse by it's generally poor scaling and many higher level spells just being more of what you can already kind of do rather than new things to do. This is why you will often see Clerics with a nearly identical spell list for the day. Some spells are just outright better options than others, when it comes to usefulness and practicality. There is often the issue that you generally do not know what you will need in advance, which is where the Cleric would have pulled ahead.
Another factor is that the Cleric, especially in the Golarion setting was really painted into a corner, and has a lot of flavor baggage, where the Oracle has almost none. Want to play a Divine Caster that's the agent and hand of their Patron Deity? Cleric does that, but so does the Oracle. Generally better. However, the Oracle can also be a Patronless cult leader. Cleric, in the setting can't. The Oracle can be a priest of a dead deity, and still have all their class features. Cleric can't. Clerics of an Evil Deity are kind of screwed for healing. Not Oracles who can still get all their Healing spells for free and cast them Spontaneously. The Oracle can basically do every the Cleric can, and often better, too. There are even spells on the Cleric list that Clerics can't cast (or benefit from) that Oracles can. I think the one thing that a Cleric can do that an Oracle can not, (yet) is the Negative Energy Channel, which like all Channel Energy, (well except the Life Oracle!!!), quickly becomes less and less relevant as a Class Feature starting at around 3rd level. For Clerics, it's basically not used after level 5ish except in extreme emergencies or out of combat to literally save charges on the Wand of Cure Light Wounds. That's even if the Cleric invests in it extensively. For the Oracle, though, Channeling uses the same stat as their Spellcasting, (and many Class Features, too), which means is generally going to be that much stronger than the Cleric's, and stays relevant a bit longer, even if they don't invest in it.
Between the Cleric, as a Class being much more boring, the Oracle really being able to do nearly everything the Cleric can, and the fact that the Oracle is both much less MAD, has better skills, and mostly equivalent to everything else, and no mandated baggage, it's really not hard to see why so many people love it over the Cleric.
When people say that the Cleric is boring, they are not referring to the individual fluff and flavor that anyone can add to any class to make it more fun, because anyone can do that with any class. They are instead referring to the Class Features, which are very lacking in the Cleric. Like I said, basically everything is picked at level one, (minus things that everyone picks at certain levels like Feats, Ability bumps, Favored Class options, etc. . .). Oracles get plenty of options throughout their levels that the get to pick and choose between. Clerics pick everything at level one and then later just get more, some of it might be relevant, others not really. It's pretty much 50/50 there.
I think that earlier access to high-level spells, plus the ability to select the spell you need when prepping, are HUGELY important for making the cleric a better choice. There are a lot of spells that you need once in a blue moon, but when you do you need them very badly. (Yes, you can often get these from other people -- removing odd conditions, powerful divinations, etc. -- but not always, and not without paying for them.)
I have enjoyed playing oracles, but on the whole I like clerics better.
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Cleric is numerically a better class, hands-down. It does everything you want in a Divine caster better than the other Divine classes do. {. . .}How is the Cleric beetter in every way? Some Domains let you do some cool stuff, but Mysteries let you do more cool stuff. Channeling lets you do some cool stuff, but if you take the Life Mystery, you can do that too (unless you want Negative Energy Channeling). As for spells, the Cleric does better if you know what you need AND just how much of it you need each day, but the Oracle can respond to variable demand for the (admittedly limited size of list) of spells known, so the Cleric's main advantage is getting access to new levels of spells earlier; like Sorcerers, Oracles eventually end up with more spells per day (at the intervening levels where later spell level access isn't being a problem).
I definitely wouldn't say the Cleric is better in every way, but I think a given Cleric is certainly capable of being better in more situations than a given Oracle. The Oracle needs to pick basically one thing he's really good at, and one thing he can be reasonably effective in. The Cleric on the other hand can be good at a broad range of things almost simultaneously. Basically, once the character has been built the Oracle's going to have to say "Okay, I'm the healer and I've got some good buffing" (or whatever statement is appropriate to the abilities he's chosen) while the Cleric can say "Okay, what do we need today?". The Oracle will almost always be better at the thing he's chosen to specialize in, but it's at the cost of being able to do other things. A Cleric who's chosen the Healing domain will make for a good healer, but could still easily also serve as secondary front-liner and control.
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In my experience this isn't really very true any more. It might have been when the Oracle first came out but since then we have had the Human extra spells known FCB for multiple extra spells, Paragon Surge into Expanded Arcana (useful even post nerf) for access to any spell on your list, Spirit Guide opening up dozens of different spells on a daily basis and Mnemonic Vestments allowing you to potentially access anything for the cost of a scroll.The only thing the Cleric has going for it really is early access to higher spell levels and its a big thing but the Oracle easily holds its own in multiple different fields at once.
The fact that humans and half-elves have ludicrous options available doesn't really have any bearing on the comparative strengths of the classes, just those races. If there was a feat that let dwarven Fighters ignore the effects of all harmful spells for one hour after drinking at least 2 mugs of ale, that wouldn't suddenly mean Fighters were OP, it would mean that dwarves were. Also, didn't Paragon Surge get nerfed into only essentially offering one extra spell known per day?
Oracle's got fun mechanics, and also has an enormous amount of flavor built right into its mechanics.
(Up to and including that an oracle may have no devotion at all to the source of her power. Clerics are volunteers. Oracles are drafted.)
So it's pretty easy to just look at the oracle mysteries & curses and start getting character ideas.
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There is a significant prob with spontaneous casters that rarely if ever gets mentioned..... over time spell lists grow.
For example the current cleric spell list contains 760 spells and this will no doubt increase over time. The cleric automatically has his knowledge topped up whereas the Oracle's spell capability decreases relatively over time due to the worsening spells known to spells total ratio.
Also, didn't Paragon Surge get nerfed into only essentially offering one extra spell known per day?
Yes, but that's still enough to be really useful.
Also, didn't Paragon Surge get nerfed into only essentially offering one extra spell known per day?Yes, but that's still enough to be really useful.
Heck, even with that you can still pull that one feat you need right now anyways beyond simple extra spells (please note that you can get 2 extra spells so long as they aren't your highest level which can be even more useful at times).
I think that this discussion doesn't really get into who does what well well.
There are some things that clerics can do that oracles just can't and vice versa.
There are some insane domains and subdomains out there. Travel and Growth for starters.
There are some insane revelations out there. Awesome Display and Nature's Whispers let you do things nobody else can dream of.
Variant negative channeling is insane.
You can get free exotic weapon proficiency by selecting certain deities.
An aasimar scion of humanity racial heritage half-elf oracle is really good, a svirfneblin oracle is not.
They are both very strong classes and I think anyone who thinks one of them is far and away better is underestimating the other.