Why do people like the oracle so much?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I've just been wondering.

It seems to me that having spontaneous casting off the cleric spell list won't be much fun. Most of it is speciffic to various situations, and maybe has to be used once in an entire adventuring career - take remove curse, or ressurection, for example. Dedicating a spell slot to one of those means that you won't use it most days, effectively wasting your spell slot, while not taking it means that you can't do anything about dead or cursed party members.

Is it that the various revelations are so nice that you build your character around them, instead of the spells?

Reading through the various guides for the oracle, it doesn't seem like they devote any thought to solving this problem.

Maybe it's geared towards pfs or something, where curses and ability damage doesn't stick around between sessions?


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Yeah, the Oracle is unique among the 9th level casters for having crazy good class features (more than that, having OPTIONS for crazy good class features where multiple things are good enough that making the choice between them is difficult), good enough to more than make up for the cleric list not being terribly suitable to spontaneous use.


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You can also use scrolls to raise the dead and save the trouble of using a slot.


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Because people are so sick of dumping Charisma that having an alternative that can get Charisma to Armor, Saves, Mind Affecting Will Saves (yes, it stacks), Initiative and a bunch of other things is a nice pleasant change of pace.


Oh the new Psychic Spell Ego Whip is gonna love Cha dumpers...


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PIXIE DUST wrote:

Oh the new Psychic Spell Ego Whip is gonna love Cha dumpers...

Yeah, because if there was one thing this game needed, it was more options for spellcasters to hard-counter Fighters.


Loads of options for builds and it's got all that full-caster goodness. It's pretty nearly impossible to make an oracle that's actually bad, and only moderately difficult to make one good at a specific concept.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
PIXIE DUST wrote:

Oh the new Psychic Spell Ego Whip is gonna love Cha dumpers...

Yeah, because if there was one thing this game needed, it was more options for spellcasters to hard-counter Fighters.

Well don't dump CHA. And hey, I have seen plenty of WIZARDS dump CHA to for Dex, con, int, and a little wis.


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PIXIE DUST wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
PIXIE DUST wrote:

Oh the new Psychic Spell Ego Whip is gonna love Cha dumpers...

Yeah, because if there was one thing this game needed, it was more options for spellcasters to hard-counter Fighters.
Well don't dump CHA. And hey, I have seen plenty of WIZARDS dump CHA to for Dex, con, int, and a little wis.

I usually play martials with enough skill points to make dumping intelligence instead a good option. Doesn't change the fact that creating yet another spell that disproportionately affects martials is a bad idea.


Ipslore the Red wrote:
Loads of options for builds and it's got all that full-caster goodness. It's pretty nearly impossible to make an oracle that's actually bad, and only moderately difficult to make one good at a specific concept.

Really? They're a spontaneous caster. All you have to do is not take the right spells and you're useless. There are a number of curses that will completely wreck your character if they're enforced.


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PIXIE DUST wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
PIXIE DUST wrote:

Oh the new Psychic Spell Ego Whip is gonna love Cha dumpers...

Yeah, because if there was one thing this game needed, it was more options for spellcasters to hard-counter Fighters.
Well don't dump CHA. And hey, I have seen plenty of WIZARDS dump CHA to for Dex, con, int, and a little wis.

Wizard CHA-dumpers are min/maxing.

A Fighter dumps CHA to have enough attribute points to function.

This is my last post on the subject not to derail the conversation, but play more Fighters and Rogues and tell me how high you want your CHA.


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PIXIE DUST wrote:

Oh the new Psychic Spell Ego Whip is gonna love Cha dumpers...

New? The XPH came out in ... ah, right, prior edition amnesia.


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Cavall wrote:
You can also use scrolls to raise the dead and save the trouble of using a slot.

This. Plus use Mnemonic Vestments so you don't even use up the scroll.


Atarlost wrote:
Ipslore the Red wrote:
Loads of options for builds and it's got all that full-caster goodness. It's pretty nearly impossible to make an oracle that's actually bad, and only moderately difficult to make one good at a specific concept.
Really? They're a spontaneous caster. All you have to do is not take the right spells and you're useless. There are a number of curses that will completely wreck your character if they're enforced.

To clarify what I meant: At level 6 or higher, it's almost impossible for an average human being to take spells in such a way that all of them are useless. Low-level casters do indeed suck. As for curses, you're right about clouded and its ilk, but I also consider it nearly impossible for someone to read 'you are blind beyond thirty feet' and ever think of actually taking that option.


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Oracle class is powerful and fits any theme perfectly.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Wow! That 3pp Merciful Oracle Curse combined with an Aasimar Oracle of Life would make a crazy awesome healer!

Dark Archive

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Thematics and flavorful abilities are the main reason. Compared to Clerics and their Domains, I find the Oracle's Revelations much more interesting and evocative, and I like the options offered by the range of mysteries. I want to cloak myself in starlight, summon the cold of the void, see patterns in the stars, channel death's energies into life, write prophecies in moonlight while I slumber, erase people from the fabric of time, rewind time to gain a second chance of performing my actions, enter a trance to gain flashes of knowledge, etc.

There's also a lot of good, strong builds with it. Even if it doesn't have the spell selection range of a Cleric, it's still a full-caster, and it's still powerful enough to fit with pretty much any party as long as I don't make a completely wonky build.


I like them better than clerics. Mostly because of the skills per level and more class features. The cleric often feels like it barely has any class features. When you look at their table its seems empty. Its a spellcaster first and foremost and almost to the exclusion to everything else so cleric has always been a boring class to me.


An oracle is flavorful and highly customizable. Yes, the spells known makes it less versatile than the cleric, but an oracle is not meant to be a cleric and there are some ways to mitigate the spell limitation. As mentioned, a selection of scrolls will help cover a lot of bases. Some races are allowed to use their favored race bonus to pick an additional spell known at every single level. Picking your spells known can be tough, but there are ways to be smart about it, and all of the extra spells per day makes certain spellcasting duties much easier.


Given the new material granting bonus spells known that came out parallel / subsequent to Oracle (favored class, extra arcana, pages of spell knowledge, mnemonic best, ring of spell knowledge), the traditional limitations of spontaneous casting are a lot less tight. But yeah, most of the wow factor for Oracles revolves around class abilities.

Honestly, I'm not really super hot on Oracles, myself.
Ok, fine, Life Mystery's Energy Body (changing to Elemental with all associated abilities/ immunities) is da bomb.

I would say that over all I like Shaman much more, even if it isn't about POWER per se... but then I would have to admit that there is only 2 Shaman Spirits I can ever see taking as primary (Heavens and Life). While not perfectly balanced, I could at least see playing most Oracle Mysteries.


Cleric is powerful and hard to mess up, but is boring. Oracle takes a lot of care when building to avoid messing up, but is much more interesting. And if you are an Oracle of Life, take the Channeling Revelation, and spend a bit of money on Scrolls (or something) to cover infrequently but badly needed spells, you can even truly substitute for a Cleric that channels positive energy. Unfortunately, Oracle doesn't have a substitute for a Cleric that channels negative energy (the Bones and Juju Mysteries only let you channel negative energy to Command Undead, like a Necromancer Wizard), and you get hurt from having to spend precious spells known on the Cure series of spells (or shell out a lot of money for Wands) unless you and your friends have Negative Energy Affinity.


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They are everything the sorcerer class should of been, but divine instead of arcane.


@UAE: Yeah but Oracle always gets free choice of automatically knowing Cure/ Inflict series, independent of alignment or Channel polarity. In fact, if you will have one of the Channeling options, taking the opposite for Cure/Inflict is pretty cool.

Dark Archive

Because unlike the Cleric, their class features are fun and interesting. They're also not capable of filling any role in the party with preparation like the normal Cleric can (which some people see as a downside, but I'd rather everyone not solve every problem with I'VE GOT A SPELL FOR THAT!) while still being versatile, powerful and effective in most situations.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Yeah, the Oracle is unique among the 9th level casters for having crazy good class features (more than that, having OPTIONS for crazy good class features where multiple things are good enough that making the choice between them is difficult), good enough to more than make up for the cleric list not being terribly suitable to spontaneous use.

This. Most of the spellcasting classes don't really have class features beyond their spell lists, whereas the Oracle is an exception to that.


Okay. 'Revelations yay!' That works, I guess.

Am I the only one that feels that the majority of the revelations look like they're actually bonus spells that got repackaged as class features?

Look at the ancestor mystery for example:

-Ancestral weapon is greater magic weapon, except it summons a weapon for itself and one of the +1s is traded for Ghost Touch.
-Blood of Heroes is more or less a move-action Prayer. Nice ability, by the by.
-Phantom Touch is Cause Fear, or something like that.
-Sacred Council is kind of unique, actually. I think there's a bard spell that does more or less the same thing though.
-Spirit of the Warrior is a port of the 3.5e version of Divine Power. Which was nerfed in the transition. It's a great spell.
-Spirit Shield is scaling Mage Armor with Enthropic Shield at high level.
-Spirit Walk does roughly the same thing as Etherealness. And Greater Invisibility, of course.
-Voice of the Grave is straight up Speak With Dead, with a heighten effect that scales with level.
-Wisdom of the Ancients likewise duplicate the divinations it says it duplicates.

Most of these abilities are things a cleric could already cast. However, these are admittedly more handy, as it seems that most are free actions to activate. Unless I'm not reading things right.

Then, of course, there are revelations like those in the lore mystery that can't be easily duplicated by spellcasting. And things that enhance casting instead of granting abilities.

It's not black and white. But it looks an awful lot like the large majority of the revelations are really just bonus spells.

Dark Archive

It depends on which Mystery you're looking at. The various Revelations run the gamut from "Gain proficiency in all armor and martial weapons" to "Get an animal companion" to "See through fire" to "Throw rocks".

Grand Lodge

The Dragon wrote:

I've just been wondering.

It seems to me that having spontaneous casting off the cleric spell list won't be much fun. Most of it is speciffic to various situations, and maybe has to be used once in an entire adventuring career - take remove curse, or ressurection, for example. Dedicating a spell slot to one of those means that you won't use it most days, effectively wasting your spell slot, while not taking it means that you can't do anything about dead or cursed party members.

Is it that the various revelations are so nice that you build your character around them, instead of the spells?

Reading through the various guides for the oracle, it doesn't seem like they devote any thought to solving this problem.

Maybe it's geared towards pfs or something, where curses and ability damage doesn't stick around between sessions?

Curses in PFS not only stick around, if not cured they eliminate your character from play (with a few exceptions.) Ability *damage* (along with hitpoint damage) goes away between sessions, as it is assumed you have a week or two to rest (The lodge tries not to send injured agents back into the field.) Ability Drain however, stays from session to session until cured.

That said, they don't come often, and they are fairly cheaply dealt with through scrolls (in the field) or even cheaper through paying for spell casting services in town.


An Oracles Curse is a class feature, its not really a negative (only in the early levels), then it ramps up and becomes a solid class feature.

Actual non-Oracle curses is something altogether different and can be quite nasty. I use curses in my games a lot, and often design specific curses for specific adventures.

You shouldn't be comparing the two, one is nothing like the other.


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Oracles are awesome because they paved the way to give us the glory that is the Shaman!


@gp: They weren't comparing the two, they weren't discussing Class Feature Curse at all. Afaik, the Curse class feature hasn't ever been mentioned in this thread. They were just discussing Remove Curse spell as if it exemplified the Oracle spell list, along with Resurrection or other "situational" "fix it" spells. Of course, there is also Silence, Divine Might, etc. Anyways, if you can use bonus spells known options, that isn't a huge limitation anymore.


Doomed Hero wrote:
Oracles are awesome because they paved the way to give us the glory that is the Shaman!

Amen. Also credit to the Witch. Lord knows, Shaman loves it some Slumber Hex.


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Many reasons -

1 - I find that players new to the magic system tend to do better with spontaneous casters. They lack "spell selection" paralysis common to many that are new to a 9-level caster. This is not always the case, yet common enough to be a factor.

2 - The apple and oranges of spontaneous vs prepared casters. Prepared casters have the ability to retool their spells for a particular situation should they have correct information of what is ahead. The spontaneous caster tends to have a small selection of useful spells, yet can cast any one spell many times over. A great example is the wizard with fly vs a sorcerer with fly. When the group has to cross a chasm, the wizard can cast fly and get across - yet rarely packs enough fly spells for the rest of the party. The sorcerer is crazy awesome in the same scenario since he/she can share fly spells onto the rest of the group. Apples and oranges, both are different, yet equally awesome.

3 - Specific mysteries can make powerful characters. A heavens oracle can revolve around the color spray spell, and thanks to one of the mysteries gained can make it scale to higher level encounters (just as hard to save at level 1 as level 20). A life oracle could become a better channeling healbot than a cleric. In other words, you can make an oracle better at a more focused niche role than a cleric, yet you lose versatility.

It is important to point out that oracles do not replace clerics, yet they are not overshadowed either. Different, yet just as awesome.

Now, if they only made the equivalent to an arcanist for divine casters.


So I think you have the basics down, but you're missing the forest for the one ugly, gnarled, useless tree.

Oracles are worse spellcasters than clerics. Many of the cleric spells are very niche but access to the entire spell list eliminates that being a problem.

Clerics are very versatile. They can be a healer one day, a summoner the next, a melee monster the day after that. Oracles tend to have to pick one of those and focus on it. What you're missing is that the Oracle, with the right selection, will always be better than a similarly focused cleric. A Life Oracle is the best healer. A Battle Oracle will be a better beatstick than a plain cleric. A Heavens Oracle turns Color Spray into an all-levels spell. Revelations vary from the simple (armor bonuses, proficiency with heavy armor and martial weapons) to the exotic (see in darkness, see through fog). And while the oracle is a worse spellcaster, any spell the cleric can use the oracle can use, and probably more often.

Liberty's Edge

There are a good few of the mysteries that also give bonus spells that can only be found on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, that's something that can be a boon to in situations where you don't have to heal or resurrect someone. And if you are worried about having enough spells, take a race with a favored class option that gives you a bonus spell every level... Half-elves are one such race. There are plenty of interesting curses and story to be gained from them even... an amusing one is the Haunted, but I rather liked the Blackened one for my Solar Oracle, personally.


Quandary wrote:
@gp: They weren't comparing the two, they weren't discussing Class Feature Curse at all. Afaik, the Curse class feature hasn't ever been mentioned in this thread. They were just discussing Remove Curse spell as if it exemplified the Oracle spell list, along with Resurrection or other "situational" "fix it" spells. Of course, there is also Silence, Divine Might, etc. Anyways, if you can use bonus spells known options, that isn't a huge limitation anymore.

Ah, that's what I get for not reading the entire thread, nor even the entire post. I saw "curse" in a thread about "oracle", so I assumed...

Regarding non-oracle curses, and about removing them. The only curse that I've ever published for PF is in my Haiku of Horror: Autumn Moon Bath House mini-adventure product, and it has a really nasty curse:

Ju-on (grudge) curse
Type curse; Save Will DC varies
Effect target becomes hunted by a specific ghost with a CR greater or equal to the cursed victim (ghost attacks and attempts to slay victim, after the victim fails 3 saving throws) plus 2 points of Con damage.
Cure Lay the ghost to rest. Attempts to remove curse or break enchantment suffer a -10 penalty. Failure to lay the ghost to rest results in rejuvenation and the ghost continues to attack victims where ever they happen to be, while in Kaidan.

Base Creature Levels + Template // Will DC
3 // 16
6 // 17
12 // 21
15+ // 25

My curses aren't really made to remove easily, rather to suffer through. Why create a curse if it can just go away so easily? Needless to say, my Ju-on curse is based on how the ghost operates in the movie, The Grudge.

Ghosts are almost always anchored to a specific location, and the ghost in my module is the same, but if PCs acquire the curse, then the ghost can appear anywhere the cursed character is located - the cursed character(s) become the current anchor for the ghost.


Oracle is the class I've played the most out of all of them. It's just so customizable and fun! The real big reason though? Is that change the mystery/curse and you almost end up with an entirely different character every time. Couple examples:

- Clouded Vision Metal Tengu swordmaster/smith that cut enemies to ribbons
- Blackened Flame Kitsune throwing around divine fire and healing as much as trickery
- Haunted Life Human who spoke with the spirits and acted as a white mage basically.

I've always been a much larger fan of specialist characters than generalists and oracles excel at that. When they specialize via their revelations and curse, they can often be the best or very close at whatever they want whether it be blasting, control, healing, or more.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Not only are revelations useful and interesting, but I like how they are more off the wall than Domains. Clerics have Air and Death, oracles have Heavens and Bones. Domains tend to be very coherent; revelations are looser and quirkier, but still thematic. Also, they can sometimes basically act as additional spells, but in other cases, are more like archetype alternate class feature. So, there is just a lot of versatility and flavor.


Ipslore the Red wrote:
As for curses, you're right about clouded and its ilk, but I also consider it nearly impossible for someone to read 'you are blind beyond thirty feet' and ever think of actually taking that option.

If you do a lot of dungeon-crawling, it's not that big a limitation.


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Actually I like The clouded vision curse. With the new Occult Adventues book it is VERY flavourful (psychic with blindness is awesome)


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Flavour flavour flavour
Since the APG came out its all I play
Used to adore the favoured soul in dnd3 and so this is just a follow on from that
Currently playing a lame-lore one in emerald spire.....every time my cha goes up just about everything goes up. Insane


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Scrolls and a mnemonic vestment can make up for the niche spells. pages of spell knowledge can also help. But yes, an oracle generally does not choose the same kind of spells as a cleric does. The oracle needs more generally useful and versatile spells, while the cleric can take more niche spells if he knows the situation ahead of him calls for them. The cleric/oracle spell list may not be as powerful as the sorcerer/wizard spell list, but there are certainly enough good spells you would want to cast every day to justify being selected. Spirit Guide is pretty impressive there as well...can just pick Life to get most of the spells needed.

Furthermore, the oracle can cast a higher volume of spells as a spontaneous caster, and as you note, the oracle's revelations can often act like spells while not actually using up his spells per day. A wind oracle using a revelation to fly or assume gaseous form is certainly emulating an existing spell, but not at the cost of his existing spells. Other revelations act likes feats (usually multiple feats) or allow rather unique abilities, depending on the mystery in question, such as being able to add Charisma instead of Dexterity to AC. Others are supernatural abilities and thus don't provoke attacks of opportunity and ignore spell resistance. And even those that emulate spells might emulate spells not normally to be found on the cleric/oracle spell list, and without being a particular archetype, you can only cast a domain spell once a day...if it's even on an available domain for your cleric.

For me, personally, it's personal preferences. I like spontaneous casting, and don't like prepared casting. Changing what spells you know every day is just annoying, not to mention having to determine the exact number of uses you're going to have for that spell. Sure, it has obvious advantages, especially for divine casters like the cleric or druid who has their entire spell list at their fingertips every morning, unlike arcane casters who have to figure out how much of their resources they want to spend on having access to spells they may not even be preparing regularly, but I view it as an unnecessary hassle. Similarly, I don't like clerics for flavor reasons...it feels like you go shopping for the best deity who offers the best domains and favored weapon...and you have a mechanical obligation to continue to worship a deity in order to contribute. Comparatively, an oracle didn't ask for his power, if he's religious, it's because he's trying to make sense of his power or his ideology meshes well with a deity and it's not going to make a huge mechanical difference if he decides after a traumatic experience that Gorum's focus on warfare is ultimately childish and barbaric, and decides to follow Cayden or Desna instead, or even becomes disillusioned with the gods and finds himself lost for awhile...but that's just personal opinion. I just don't like playing classes where my choice of deity has mechanical implications, rather than implications born of roleplaying. Like I said, though, that's just personal preference. Though I also think the flavor is nice...

Of course, oracle's probably only my third-favorite class for the moment...Occult Adventures might drop that a bit, too, we'll have to see. Looking at kineticist and mesmerist...


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I like casters in general and oracles are no exception. I think a lot of the popularity comes from the versatility. Clerics basically come in two varieties, positive and negative channelers, with various domain and archetype options. Oracles have access to a smaller portion of the same spell list and so they vary by spells known, not just memorized. Oracles also vary by curse as well as mystery. A bones oracle with the blackened curse is going to feel different from one with the deaf curse or the haunted curse. Similarly a bones oracle with the blackened curse is going to feel different from a heavens oracle or a nature oracle with the same curse. You still have archetypes and mystery selection to differentiate further even after that. Clerics feel different mostly from the roleplaying and worshiping different gods. Oracles feel different without the need for worship and that appeals to many players.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The Dragon wrote:

I've just been wondering.

It seems to me that having spontaneous casting off the cleric spell list won't be much fun. Most of it is speciffic to various situations, and maybe has to be used once in an entire adventuring career - take remove curse, or ressurection, for example. Dedicating a spell slot to one of those means that you won't use it most days, effectively wasting your spell slot, while not taking it means that you can't do anything about dead or cursed party members.

That's what scrolls are for. There is also a Pathfinder Society feat from the Primer that lets a spontaneous caster add one spell from a prepared casting list of the same tye (arcane or divine), as a spontaneous spell of one level higher, provided they have a written form of the spell to work with.


Ipslore the Red wrote:
I also consider it nearly impossible for someone to read 'you are blind beyond thirty feet' and ever think of actually taking that option.

I don't know, it was enough to motivate me to help build a 3PP bard archetype, moso who happens to be blind as well, and like the oracle curse gain special abilities related to the blindness as they level. Of course there is a famous Japanese ghost story called Mimi Nashi Hoichi (Hoichi the Earless) featuring a blind bard as its protagonist - which is what really compelled me to build him. The tale is told in the 1964 Japanese horror classic movie, Kwaidan.

After arriving as a distant traveler to a friends temple, Hoichi visits the beach and gets invited to play for a local lord (who happens to be a ghost of a dead emperor, though Hoichi does't realize it; he's blind) and reveals to his friend of his impromtu concert, taking him to the beach to show where it occurred (cemetery). Hoichi's friend applies holy text inked all over Hoichi's skin (as spell invisibility to undead), but is called away before he can finish. So an accolyte finishes (but forgets to do Hoichi's ears). A samurai ghost, agent of the undead emperor, is sent to retrieve Hoichi for another concert (and the bard's destruction), but only finds "ears floating in midair", so takes those instead ... hence, Hoichi the earless.

Actually this tale that includes the ghost of an emperor was the impetus for me creating the Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG) where the entire imperial house and shogunate are yurei ghosts.


I prefer spontaneous casters because you can focus on the spell areas that you want and use scrolls and wands for your utility spells. Far less trouble and for me, more enjoyable to play.

The only element of the Oracle that I am not keen on are the curses. The old 3.X Dragonlance setting had effectively the same class (the Mystic) and that worked fine as a spontaneous caster without the need for a penalty.


Eryx_UK wrote:

I prefer spontaneous casters because you can focus on the spell areas that you want and use scrolls and wands for your utility spells. Far less trouble and for me, more enjoyable to play.

The only element of the Oracle that I am not keen on are the curses. The old 3.X Dragonlance setting had effectively the same class (the Mystic) and that worked fine as a spontaneous caster without the need for a penalty.

As I stated further up thread, the Oracles Curse is not a penalty, its a class feature, and among the things that make the oracle "cool".


like getting blindsense is cool.

Liberty's Edge

I suppose I'm just here to echo the existing sentiments..

It all comes down to being a good combination of flavorful, versatile (both as a class and within specific builds), and effective. Almost any time I want to build a character to fill X role I find that there's a fun and effective way to make Oracle do that job. And that's not something any other class can boast.

I really wish Sorcerer was built with a similar amount of flavor and variability.


PIXIE DUST wrote:
like getting blindsense is cool.

I played a blind oracle for a 6 month game, I enjoyed it.

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