RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I'm thinking large groups against armies might actually be easier with class deck cards - things like Blessing of Abadar and Burglar seem like they will help a lot versus these barriers, and we don't have those things in the main set this time, whereas they are pretty easy to acquire in OP.
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The horn of assured victory!!!!
Adds a d4..... LOL
my gosh the boons in this set are underwhelming
With a name like that in an earlier set you could have recharged it to take care of one of the checks!
Maybe a Glory Hound named it? :D
Blessing of Abadar is there and has been quite helpful !
With just 4 scrawny, Orbis-approved Abadars in the deck, they're there, but we've had a hard time finding them. Kyra sacrificed the one we DID get for the greater good to ensure a victory in AP1-5, transmuting it into another corrupted blessing we didn't want. D:
(not to hate on corrupted blessing, Adowyn's deck is 4x Bapohmets and 1x Shelyn (to recharge her cure (not that she ever leaves the Shelyn in her hand for that anyway)))
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Maybe a Glory Hound named it? :DThe horn of assured victory!!!!
Adds a d4..... LOL
my gosh the boons in this set are underwhelming
With a name like that in an earlier set you could have recharged it to take care of one of the checks!
The "Horn of Marginally Improved Odds of Victory" doesn't have quite the same ring to it...
I think one of the things that would make the armies crazy hard would be using home brewed characters. The heroes in the box are designed with an eye towards this set and the challenges it poses, if you're using home brewed they don't take into account things that may be important in these later scenarios simply because they weren't made by the devs, it is impossible for their creators to know what to expect.
Because of stat gems and better character synergies, in my experience the generic class decks actually do a lot better than the Wrath characters.
Because of stat gems and better character synergies, in my experience the generic class decks actually do a lot better than the Wrath characters.
I understand the stat gems and blessings, but can you clarify the "better character synergies"?
In Season of the Righteous, characters also get the Banner much earlier, which can help a lot. In hindsight, could probably have made SotR AD2 a bit more difficult.
I understand the stat gems and blessings, but can you clarify the "better character synergies"?
By better synergies, I mean the class decks have superior support powers. But in general, characters in other sets are just better.
For example, Valeros complimented us quite well providing bonuses to combat, allowing our spellcasters to beat Carrion Golems in melee (with help of course). To me, that makes Valeros better than Alain (until his role at least). Also, Valeros is better than Alain in combat because he can recharge weapons (which is huge in Wrath), but he's also better than Crowe because Crowe needs to bury cards in melee.
Meliski allows re-rolls, which is actually huge in Wrath. Shardra also allows re-rolls, but re-rolling 1-2 dice is much better than being forced to re-roll everything.
Harsk and Agna have better scouting than all Wrath characters. Scouting is really important.
These characters made it quite easy to finish Wrath in OP.
Strongly prefer the class deck versions of Harsk and Kyra as well.
Because of OP rules, we don't have restrictions on Cure spells, Clerics can have 3 Cure spells each without draining Cures for other support characters. That leads to better support.
In general, I'm not having the same problems many other players are having. In 14 sessions (and 4 different groups) we've failed 1 time, and that was because we were farming (yummy Manor), had bad luck with combat checks, forgot to reset blessing deck, and bad game play (letting boons clog our hands). IMO, I think character disparity has played a part in that.
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Okay, thanks. I'll admit I mostly think of the Wrath characters through the lens of their Role cards. I also tend to play smaller groups (3 most commonly) so grouping up is more rare. You've got some great comparative points. OP especially allows a lot more Cure stacking.
That said, I will eye your "Harsk and Agna have better scouting than all Wrath characters" and raise you an Adowyn. Eyebrow fully raised.
OK, I went too far with the scouting statement. :) I think the community is in agreement that Adowyn is the best (or 2nd best) character in Wrath.
Even so, I prefer Harsk's ability in adventure 1-3. There are tradeoffs to her ability.
If she uses Leryn (which is very tempting with the high combat checks), she gets to scout once and there's no guarantee she gets Leryn back the next turn. Harsk gets to scout 2 times (with his power) regardless.
To continue scouting, Adowyn needs to recharge a card. Harsk can scout at the start and end of his turn for free. So would you rather use the cards in your hand for exploring or scouting? I'd rather be exploring.
I give the slight advantage to Harsk before the role card. Once Adowyn gets her role though, she blows Harsk away.
I don't think characters should be judged by their role cards. Most players live within the first 3 adventures, not the last 3. Some characters are completely different with their role cards but it doesn't matter if they don't live to get there.
Anyway, that's just my opinion on the Wrath characters. They certainly make Wrath more challenging to play (which is not a bad thing).
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There are some of the powers that we had on Runelords characters that I wonder if we'll ever see again - e.g., Merisiel's blanket "evade-everything" ability, or Seoni's "auto-recharge all spells." Certainly most of the evasion that's come on characters since Runelords has involved some sort of cost - at least recharging a card.
Solely based on pre-role-card experience, I've been very impressed by how useful Adowyn's scouting (with its flexible timing) is. In particular, the time that I find scouting best is when deciding whether to go for an additional exploration or not (with a full hand, plenty of characters are fine running into whatever, whereas mid-turn things can really go poorly if a bare-bones hand runs into the wrong henchman/villain). In scenarios with particularly killer banes that take lots of party resources to handle---like the armies of WotR AD 2, or, you know, all of WotR to some extent---the option to repeatedly scout before every explore (or additional explore) of one or more vulnerable party members is an excellent tool to have access to.
Harsk's scouting is very resource efficient, but also never tells you whether to go for an additional explore or not.
(Note: this is in a 3-character party, so Adowyn gets enough turns to refill her hand frequently; in a 5-6-man group, exhaustive scouting wouldn't be the same sort of option. Although, Harsk's 1-2 scouts a turn would likewise make a smaller impact.)
On power level between class decks & WotR more generally:
Sure, the high end of a 28-character pool is quite good---I love playing Agna and Meliski too :). I also think the low end---chars like Wrathack, Lesath, and Bekah, who are just OK---is worse than the low end of WotR.
Is CD Valeros stronger pre-role than Alain? Sure. But if you want to compare apples to apples, compare Val to the Heavy-Armor-melee-support in WotR, Seelah, who I think is at least as useful overall (her buffing is more costly, but more versatile and powerful, plus she gets divine casting and a special Paladin sword).
Card-selection-wise (class deck play vs. regular), you get a nice front-loaded advantage with lots of Cures for everyone who wants them, but you're also stuck with some pretty suboptimal/non-existent upgrade options at various junctures, depending on your deck (especially for classes with different desired weapon types between str/dex/non-proficient, like Bard & Ranger). With the broader pool to draw on, non-class-deck-built characters have more room for highly optimized decks, in my experience (mmm, Mastiff).
there's no guarantee she gets Leryn back the next turn.
Scratch that part. It still costs a card though.
There are some of the powers that we had on Runelords characters that I wonder if we'll ever see again - e.g., Merisiel's blanket "evade-everything" ability, or Seoni's "auto-recharge all spells." Certainly most of the evasion that's come on characters since Runelords has involved some sort of cost - at least recharging a card.
Exactly.
Bah gawd, Keith is giving him The People's Eyebrow!
As long as it's not the People's Elbow.
For example, Valeros complimented us quite well providing bonuses to combat, allowing our spellcasters to beat Carrion Golems in melee (with help of course). To me, that makes Valeros better than Alain (until his role at least). Also, Valeros is better than Alain in combat because he can recharge weapons (which is huge in Wrath), but he's also better than Crowe because Crowe needs to bury cards in melee.
I am glad you like your class deck characters, but you are severely underestimating the characters from Wrath. Yes, Valeros provides more initial combat support than Alain, but once you hit AP4 Alain provides far better combat support than Valeros.
Valeros and Alain start out as roughly equal in combat ( Alain's ability to recharge Donahan is roughly equivalent to the power to recharge a weapon), but Alain's powers scale up faster and more consistently than those of Valeros. At the start of AP 3, Alain is going into combat with 1d10+2d8+10 (rerolling on a failure) using only cards that he has from the start of the game (and he can add another +4 if he wants to discard). By AP6, Alain can come to the table with a jaw dropping 1d10+3d8+37 if he needs to. I love class deck Valeros, but he just doesn't scale like that.
I am glad you like your class deck characters, but you are severely underestimating the characters from Wrath.
Maybe I am, but I think initially the class decks are better, which is part of the reason why OP players are having more success than campaign players.
Yes, Valeros provides more initial combat support than Alain, but once you hit AP4 Alain provides far better combat support than Valeros.
Agreed, Valeros is better initially and then Alain is better than him in every way after his role, including support (assuming he takes Glory Hound and kill steals).
Valeros and Alain start out as roughly equal in combat ( Alain's ability to recharge Donahan is roughly equivalent to the power to recharge a weapon), but Alain's powers scale up faster and more consistently than those of Valeros.
OK.
At the start of AP 3, Alain is going into combat with 1d10+2d8+10 (rerolling on a failure) using only cards that he has from the start of the game (and he can add another +4 if he wants to discard).
Alain: This assumes a recharge from Donahan. Starting weapons and all skill feats going to Str.
= Melee skill (1d10+2+4 upgrade) + weapon (warhammer: 1d8) + Donahan (1d8+4)= 1d10 + 2d8 + 10
= 24.5 average
Also Alain can further buff himself if needed by discarding the weapon or using his power.
Valeros: Assumes recharging the weapon
= Melee skill (1d10+3+4 upgrade) + weapon (warhammer: 1d8 + 1d6 recharge)
= 1d10 + 1d8 +1d6 + 7
= 20.5 average
Having said that, if we gave them better weapons, Valeros would be closer to 22.5. Still, Alain has the edge, especially since his top end is so much higher.
At this point Alain is better in combat but Val is still providing support.
By AP6, Alain can come to the table with a jaw dropping 1d10+3d8+37 if he needs to. I love class deck Valeros, but he just doesn't scale like that.
If your numbers are correct, then nothing will challenge Alain at AP6. I wonder how they will challenge Alain when the class decks don't scale as well to AP 6?
Walk me through the numbers please? The following are my numbers if the stars are aligned.
Alain: Assumes Shock Greatsword +2 (discard), using power (discard), using Donahan (recharge), ally power on exploration. He can't get any help in the check.
= Melee skill (1d10+3+4 upgrade) + weapon (2d6+2+1d10) + power (3+6) + Don (1d8+6) + ally (d8+3+3).
= 2d10 +2d8 + 2d6 + 30 = 11 + 9 + 7 + 30
= 57 average
Keep in mind we have seen a villain that requires a two 50s to beat, so I think this kind of combat total won't go to waster. And you need to through a lot to get there.
+1d10+12 Melee (+2 melee, +4 str, +6 epic path)
+1d8+6 weapon (veteran's long spear)
+1d8+6 Mount (Dohan)
+7-9 (discard a card)
+5-6 (use an ally to get diplomacy)
edit: I would also add that I think the class deck weapons are, on balance, worse than the weapons we have seen from wrath. But that may just be because of my love of polearms.
Weapons in the class decks are definitely bad, but worse for support characters.
So I forgot the mythic path in the total, that would explain the missing +6.
So Donahan is getting an average result of 63 buffed?? And if you remove 10 from that result he can have blessings. That's insane. And that's on average.
That's going to be tough on the mathematically challenged. :)
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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If he spends the mythic power on converting to d20s instead of just adding it, say against the villain, your Alain example can get to 6d20+30, for an average of 93. Just to point that out.
Or if he needs to make two rolls, 3d20+1d8+2d6+33(30), for an average of 76 on the first roll and 73 on the second.
Hahaha, I said Donahan. :) Shouldn't write when tired.
Yes, I don't know if combat is very challenging for Alain at the later stages.
Which makes me really suspicious on the final adventure paths and looking to diversify character secondary abilities...
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Do remember though, to convert all those dice you have to have all those dice. If you got a guy rolling 2d10+9, for example, you can't convert 3 of them to d20s, because you don't have 3 to convert. This means for mythic conversion, you may be better off with a 2d4 weapon than with a 1d10.
Also, I suspect that having a full set of mythic tokens when fighting the villain will get less common as we go.
I ditched two mythic charges on Barbarian Hordes when I got caught flat footed without armor in hand, but my wife was like "oh hell no" and decided to roll the dice. Even with the extra skill feat from the end of the last AP, I felt naked only having +1 from mythic charges through most of the scenario. D:
There are some of the powers that we had on Runelords characters that I wonder if we'll ever see again - e.g., Merisiel's blanket "evade-everything" ability, or Seoni's "auto-recharge all spells." Certainly most of the evasion that's come on characters since Runelords has involved some sort of cost - at least recharging a card.
Looking at Wrath AP3, I think it is fairly safe to say that blanket evasion is still on the table.
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Looking at Wrath AP3, I think it is fairly safe to say that blanket evasion is still on the table.
It took a bit of willpower not to respond in some fashion before AP3 was out :)
Our 6 person group is on the last B scenario. So far we have failed scenarios three times (first, second and fourth once) with three character deaths (Balazar once and Shardra twice) and I have to echo what has already been said multiple times.
Scaling for 6 people seems off when you get hit with Demonic Horde or Arboreal Blight + Locations like abattoir which give a +6 to any banes check to defeat. Way too many resources have to be expended to deal with those threats and the fact that the horde requires full defeats to banish is crazy.
So many banes deal before you act damage with no easy ways to mitigate - it just wears your hand down and deprives you of options to actually deal with threats.
That being said, I actually don't mind the added challenge, I have no problem with losing scenarios, the only issue is the cheapness or lack of solutioning to potential losses. We had a location with one Demonic Horde and two arboreal blights! If those are above the henchman/villain you may as well restart the scenario right then and there.
The B scenarios, as have been stated by almost all messageboard users here, should primarily be designed as intros and ramp up for the subsequent expansions. That should be their only purpose: set the tone and entice people to continue on their journey. Wraths B scenarios are not structured to do that, I shudder to think how someone who has never played PACG would deal with the B adventures - I can't imagine they wouldn't be frustrated.
In our OP session last night, we hit the Arboreal Blight and even with characters that were replaying a scenario and it being a Adventure 2 scenario, it basically hand-wiped everyone. If it does that to characters that have upgraded their decks and have access to good loot and such, what does it do to characters who meet up with it in the first few scenarios?
Having finished the B scenarios, I can now safely echo what others have been saying: Overall, I appreciate the added difficulty and the fact that parties have to think differently about each scenario. I've had two different parties of 4 characters work through the scenarios, so I don't think you have to hand-pick characters to complete them. But you do have to analyze how you are going to attack the scenarios.
I'm currently playing a RoTR playthrough, a S&S playthrough, a WOTR playthrough, and a SoR OP campaign. The monsters and barriers in WOTR are scary and make me think hard about doubling-down on explores. That is probably how it should be, but it means that when you get things like Arboreal Blight or Demonic Horde, that those aren't Basic barriers/monsters. And the Abattoir should never see the light of day in a B scenario - especially when you have 6 characters!!!
Play the B scenarios without Blight, Horde, and Abattoir +X to banes and I think you have challenging scenarios that don't destroy a party.
I'm considering house ruling the Demonic Horde and Arboreal Blight cards to focus on the location on which they are drawn.
So, Arboreal Blight would be "Each character at your location summons and encounters...."
The Demonic Horde would be "Each character at your locations randomly choose a character to...."
You missed a perfect "hold that thought" moment Keith. Shame on you!
Those moments are copyright reserved by not-this-Mike and Vic.
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Scaling for 6 people seems off when you get hit with Demonic Horde or Arboreal Blight + Locations like abattoir which give a +6 to any banes check to defeat. Way too many resources have to be expended to deal with those threats and the fact that the horde requires full defeats to banish is crazy.
Just wait until you fight the armies.