Let's flip the Wrath difficulty question around


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Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

I know many people are discussing the issues with the B scenarios and how the difficulty is a barrier to new players, and so forth.

However, since many of us posting on the boards are not new players, I was thinking we could create a strategy thread specifically for dealing with problem areas from the B set.

Near as I can tell, these are the major sticking points:(I might misremember names)
Arboreal Blight barrier
Demonic Hordes barrier(the one that summons demons to fight random characters)
Carrion Golem vs. spellcasters
Elven Entanglement scenario.

So I say look at this this way - assume you will be meeting these things. How do we build/play a starting character to endure and thrive against these challenges? What resources, especially basic cards, can be used to adapt to these things? Are there new strategies that were useless in RotR or S&S that are now worth pursuing?

For example, I've been thinking about the Carrion Golem/Enora matchup. Everyone presumes it's a handwipe, plus 3 cards off the top, so basically death or brink of death. I'm not familiar with evasion spells - I know in general my group has disdained them in previous sets. Would they work here? What about just piling a bunch of blessings on her and letting her punch at the thing? Getting a caster even up to 4d4 with their unarmed attack has a chance to win, but also importantly means the likelihood of a hand wipe goes way down, so at the very least avoids death. Would I like to save those blessings for better things? Usually yes, but Enora vs. Carrion Golem is likely a tougher fight than the villain will be anyway.

Anybody else think of ways we can change our strategy or expectations to make these challenges more doable? I sometimes wonder if actual fresh new players might not have a lot of these problems because they are untainted with expectations and strategies from previous sets that are no longer optimal.


I have found that I focus a lot more on scouting and closing locations as soon as possible, also making sure to have some healing around at all times. I have Enora in my solo party and I make sure to have more than just Attack spells in her deck. Her ability to cycle and recharge spells is amazing, and people forget to use it defensively when fighting the golem. If it looks like I'm going to hand wipe i play as many spells as I can before hand to fatten my deck back up. Her ability to recharge a spell from discard is huge, she usually has the most cards left in her deck of my entire party by the time a scenario is over. Spells like Brilliance have been invaluable to her since they a)pull a spell out of discard but b) let her still play yet another spell or spells during the rest of her turn. So even when she does occasionally hand while I am pulling at least 1 if not 2 of those wiped spells back into her hand each turn afterwards. also it is important to remember people can play blessings on any check, not just combat, so on those precombat checks that could potentially cripple her sometimes get more blessings okayed on them than on the actual combat. And when all else fails she's still a d6 str. Against the summoner villain she actually took out the pet with her bare hands and a corrupted blessing.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

You can only play one spell per check though, so if you encounter Carrion Golem, you can't just hammer down all your spells with Enora (or any caster).


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Hi ryric,
I welcome and understand your point but IMHO you may be missing the original issue.
Non veteran-players want a simple fun heroic game. Not a strategy tactic puzzle driven one that feels like you have no choice but to use the perfect tactic or die.
So the issue is not to prove that there is / find the best tactic. It's whether it is a good idea to force to get into life or death strategy as early as B2.
IMHO.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Frencois wrote:

Hi ryric,

I welcome and understand your point but IMHO you may be missing the original issue.
Non veteran-players want a simple fun heroic game. Not a strategy tactic puzzle driven one that feels like you have no choice but to use the perfect tactic or die.
So the issue is not to prove that there is / find the best tactic. It's whether it is a good idea to force to get into life or death strategy as early as B2.
IMHO.

I get that, and I acknowledge that it is an issue. I'm just saying that most of us on the boards are not newbie players - and in fact our veteran status may be hurting us here more than it would a newbie.

Basically, a group of new players may not know general "principles" like "low level armor is bad" and "attack spells are better than evade spells" and "save blessings for henchmen/villains/closing" - and without that baggage from previous sets they may do better than we think.

It's not so much a puzzle as it is recognizing that our assumptions are wrong.

Tangle traps should totally allow you to close locations though ;P


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Clear. I agree that for those of us who are veterans, there is a nice question about what is the best strategy. But then I think it's a lot depending of the size and members of the party, and on whether your priority is looting, defeating the scenario or minimizing risk of death. So I guess there is a lot of valid strategies.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

It would be OK if Tangle Traps didn't close the location if the Stump did. It might or might not ever show up, but it at least gives a chance.

I don't think newer players will be "unencumbered" by a set of preset ideas about the game, and won't have all the problems we do. I can see new players...

  • Picking up Viper Strike, thinking it's a perfectly viable attack spell
  • Choosing whatever characters they want to play - whatever looks "fun"
  • Not really thinking about the strategy of having a "tank" character handing a weapon or armor off to a caster (like Enora)
  • Not think or be able to import a "heal-at-will" character from a class deck or prior base set

I'm honestly not sure that "strategy" can help people win this thing, although it might help players stay alive. You have to avoid making some basic mistakes (like "don't choose Viper Strike, a dud that the designers put in the box hoping you'd be foolish enough to choose") and just hope for favorable conditions in the randomized draw.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Wait, why is Viper Strike not good?


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

The preponderance of Poison-immune banes. Really only Kyra can make a good case for it, since she can take advantage of the easy recharge (only a 6) early on, while still being able to use it as fodder for her power, since most Poison immunities are attached to Undead and Demon monsters.


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Donny Schuijers wrote:
Wait, why is Viper Strike not good?

Many demons are immune to Poison. I think Jason mentioned in another post about someone playing Wu Shen and not worrying all that much about Poison immune monsters, but in that case it's just the extra d6. I guess your mileage may vary.


Donny Schuijers wrote:
Wait, why is Viper Strike not good?

About 1/3 of all monsters are Poison-immune; it's the worst element, and Poison Strike isn't better than its peers. From best to worst in WotR: Cold > Force > Acid = Fire > Mental > Electricity > Poison. Demons usually get electric and poison immunity; undead get mental and poison.

Both monster types are valid targets for Kyra's power, so she can use the Viper Strikes to let better elements be used by other characters.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Ah, you meant elemental-wise, not damage wise. My bad.

Then why is it good for a tank to give casters weapons and armors?


Donny Schuijers wrote:
You can only play one spell per check though, so if you encounter Carrion Golem, you can't just hammer down all your spells with Enora (or any caster).

Ah, but that's where you're wrong, there are some spells that you can play on checkd with other spells, like mirror image. Also, there are lots of spells you can play outside of checks, such as brilliance and good omen. With having 6 cards in hand, 6 of which are spells at the start, there is a good chance I will always have multiple spells in hand. The only way I get in a lot of trouble is if I have too many Attack spells since those are as you correctly pointed out 1 card per check. Also, with Enora your items should be books, and there are books that have recharge abilities, so I'm using those every opportunity I get as well. I guess I should have said in my original post, on every turn I'm playing as many spells as I can and not just if I think I'm going to wipe.

None of this is to say that if you play Enora like this you will never die, that's just crazy talk, what I'm just saying is that I treat her more like Sajan where I've built her to constantly play things that get recharged each turn, with the added bonus that I can heal myself while doing it provided I have spells that I lost as damage or botched my recharge roll (which does happen a fair amount). Even when I have a bad turn of dice rolling chances are I will be able to pull those spells right back the very next turn, plus having party members that can heal around helps (but that helps no matter what character you are).

To be really successful you still want to figure it a party that has scouting and place Enora behind them, this has saved my bacon many times, where I've looked ahead to see what's coming before I send Enora in, I rarely have her go into a location blind if I can help it, whereas Balazar with a few monsters, Alain, or Seela can pretty mich just stomp right in weapons/spells/monsters blazing. Turn order plays a huge roll in this versus RotR where you can lead off with Kyra face first into a monster heavy location and usually survive.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Oh.. Can someone confirm this if this is viable?

We always played it that when you start an encounter, everything counts as a check. Therefor: You can't play Brilliance and (for example) Frost Blase to power the other up?
We always played it that Brilliance would be cast in the encounter, therefor that being the only spell.

So, basically: Can I play multiple Brilliances (and even Glibness') in my combat encounter when I'm playing an Attack Card?


What I mean is I play brilliance at the second it gets in my hand so it cycles, you will eventually get to the point where you thin your deck out enough you are seeing the same spells every turn to every other turn. So I don't just wait for a monster to appear, I always have it going if possible, and yes you can play more than one brilliance on yourself (can't find link but it was confirmed in another thread). You could in theory have a turn where you have glibness, brilliance, and agility all in play. Those spells get played and then all checks for that turn receive the bonus, much like how you play a cloud spell out of combat so then it effects all combat checks that turn. I'm not sure how you could ever win a fight with just brilliance since you can't attack with your intelligence, though I guess it would help acquiring items or what not but that seems like a waste to only play it for that.

For being such a simple card game he depth of the rules at times can be quite staggering. It took me forever (and multiple posts of being hit over the head with the rules) before ttr concept of skills versus check clicked with me. The people on these forums are absolutely wonderful resources and I'm sure one of the powers that be (or hawkmoon, sandslice, etc) will post soon to either confirm or deny and properly explain things.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Not at the moment of the Combat check. Brilliance doesn't have a "Before You Act" stipulation that would allow you to do that. Though you could do an end run around that if the bane required an Intelligence/Knowledge check Before You Acted, for example. I think Carter is saying you could already have Brilliance primed, or you could've played Good Omen on another character's check to acquire. Basically, keep your hand small before trouble starts.

(not always an option, of course; on the first two turns of AP2 Kyra and Adowyn suffered back to back hand wipes from, you guessed it, a Carrion Golem and a Demonic Horde)


Dave Riley wrote:

Not at the moment of the Combat check. Brilliance doesn't have a "Before You Act" stipulation that would allow you to do that. Though you could do an end run around that if the bane required an Intelligence/Knowledge check Before You Acted, for example. I think Carter is saying you could already have Brilliance primed, or you could've played Good Omen on another character's check to acquire. Basically, keep your hand small before trouble starts.

(not always an option, of course; on the first two turns of AP2 Kyra and Adowyn suffered back to back hand wipes from, you guessed it, a Carrion Golem and a Demonic Horde)

See I knew someone would be able to explain it better! By playing your buffs outside the actual encounter you've pulled them from your hand, recharged a spell from your discard pile and provided help to either yourself or someone else on their checks as well as given you a chance to recharge them regardless of how crappy the rest of your turn plays out. The only card you will be playing on actual checks are the attack spell and then possibly your mirror image/arcane armor (which I don't believe is in WotR but could be brought in through a class deck). My buff spells will be out of hand long before that encounter card has been flipped, sometimes you get extra lucky and the monster that is about to while you is using fire and cold and you can using an extra attack spells to power your special ability, turning what could have been disaster into basically just a hand reset (I say hand reset because all the cards you've played and hopefully recharged leading up to that point, I'm not saying the ability actually resets your hand).

The caster is still fragile, bad rolls still hurt them worse, but they are still surprisingly more resilient than I ever expected.


Donny Schuijers wrote:

Ah, you meant elemental-wise, not damage wise. My bad.

Then why is it good for a tank to give casters weapons and armors?

Because they have more than they need, and such items tend to jam your hand or have to be disposed as "damage" (damage, discard, etc) unless your character has an alternative (eg, Harsk having the fighter power on ranged weapons.)

Because casters have a hard time obtaining them. Enora has no weapons *or* armour; Seoni and Shardra have an armour but no weapon. Armour can at least avert one disaster, while a weapon compensates for being caught without spells (not to mention, there's a blessing of Shax that has a combat check to acquire and you'd rather not throw spells at that --- and even a Corrupted blessing is still a blessing.)

It's not so critical for Seoni, as she can hot-swap an in-hand spell for a discarded spell during the check step; but still handy.

Quote:

Oh.. Can someone confirm this if this is viable?

We always played it that when you start an encounter, everything counts as a check. Therefor: You can't play Brilliance and (for example) Frost Blase to power the other up?
We always played it that Brilliance would be cast in the encounter, therefor that being the only spell.

So, basically: Can I play multiple Brilliances (and even Glibness') in my combat encounter when I'm playing an Attack Card?

Short answer: no. But it's more complicated than that.

Brilliance and similar spells modify a check; so the spell has to relate to an appropriate check at the moment it's being cast.

For example: you can cast Brilliance during the "when you encounter" step IF that step has an Intelligence check, or if you can play a non-spell card during the step that has an Intelligence check involved with it, or if you can play a spell during the step that isn't displayed and has Int to recharge (in which case the recharge is a different step.)

You can cast it before you act under parallel circumstances - which are more common because checks like spell resistance and Knowledge to expose weakness occur here.

You can cast it when setting up your check if it's an Int check - but you couldn't then play an Attack spell because of the one-card rule.

Editor

Dave Riley wrote:
Basically, keep your hand small before trouble starts.

A good strategy in general, to bring this thread back to the OP's original question. :)

Similarly, Adowyn should be recharging cards with Leryn multiple times per turn if she can, first to keep her hand small and second to dredge up her weapons (since her favored card is ally, she doesn't always start with a good hand for a fight). Her scouting ability is top-notch for avoiding tricky barriers and for minimizing risk when you do face a surprise golem.

She can pass Leryn to other players to scout as well, and to help loosen up the melee martials' clogged hands.

Be careful, though, as too much caution can burn unnecessary turns.


For more info on the brilliance Enora dynamic this thread sums it up quite well http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sc5i?Enora-power-timing.

Joe Homes pretty much summed up everything I was originally trying to say though, the whole point isn't infinite out how to play with a small hand before the damage hits. The more you can recharge the better. Actual damage will still hurt, but since the casters don't have the luxury of armor or a lot of cards then can discard without worry. Anytime Enora or Balazar take actual damage they feel it. Wrath really demands a balanced party through the base adventure, the first scenario in deck 1 is much more in line with the previous games, still harder than RotR but much less so than the base adventure, I still used all my heals but I for once I only had 1 char (Balazar) on the brink of death, but since I tend to play him a little recklessly so that I can get monsters in hand he's pretty much always a hand wipe from death. I think you really need to be reckless in your card playing with the casters to get the most out of them in this set, yeah you will be walking a fine line between life and death but if you build them to just use Attack spells and only play one spell a turn you're destined to get wiped without actually accomplishing anything beforehand. When/if she gets hit I want to have recharged as many cards bedorhsnd as possible. The absolute queen for recharging is the hunter, she's incredible and unfortunately I feel that the biggest flaw in Wrath is that she almost feels necessary for any party to survive. She makes every party more survivable.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Okay, I've run into another difficulty issue, so I'm pulling this thread out of mothballs.

I mentioned this a bit in the pace-of-play thread, but this is really more a difficulty issue. The challenge is how to defeat armies with large groups. The first note is that, in 6-player games, you have to perform every check. This means that if you are missing one of the skills (maybe your group doesn't have stealth, since only Harsk and Adowyn do, and maybe you brought Imrijka as your ranged character). Since all of these checks are DC 12, that means you're going to have to spend somewhere around 4 cards to be able to beat it, and even skills you do have will generally require more resources (A DC 16 Divine check? Even Kyra, with Hierophant and a skill point in Wisdom, is going to need an 11 to succeed on that without additional expenses (spend Mythic or use a blessing. The Divine 16 is the most extreme example, but even the DC 12 checks are only 50/50 with a d12+5, which feels like a best cast no-resource scenario).

So, you're looking at a situation where every player needs to use 2-3 cards of resources, and one character may need 4-5+. That means each Army needs 17 cards used against it on average, assuming you even have that many useful cards in your hands. Then take into account that, particularly for Scenario 3, you need to succeed against 6 of these things, when your hand only gets refreshed 5 times over the course of the entire scenario. Even if there were no other cards, that would be difficult, but you also have to get through 6 increasingly larger locations, and then fight a Villain afterwards. After attempting Scenario 2-3, I genuinely could not fathom a way to win with my group, even with good luck.

So, I have two questions coming out of this. First, in the rules, can any of you guys come up with a way to win these scenarios in 6-player, within the rules, if you don't have a character with all 6 skills being covered (we had no one with ranged, and Survival was only a secondary, non-mythic skill for 2 characters). Second, since we don't want to let the game get us frustrated, we developed the alternate rule that instead of having to win every check against an Army, you just have to have more successes than failures (So for each group size, respectively 1-1, 2-2, 3-2, 4-3, 5-3, 6-4). Does that sound like a reasonable house rule, or does it break in some way?


Isaic,

I competed AP2 with 5 players. That was tough enough and i can only imagine how tough it must be with six when you have no flexibility in skill choices. I think that the ratio of success you suggest (basically 50% + 1) would work well.

The only other pieces of advice I wanted to offer was, don't sleep on Kyra. Against army banes that have the undead and deamon trait, she can use her power to role divine for everything. That helps gives some much needed flexibility.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

That's good to know! (I am actually using homebrew characters, but our cleric is very similar to Kyra, so I just used that as an example).

Thanks for your feedback. We're going to play with that house rule tonight and I'll let everyone know how it goes.


By AP 2, you should have the Banner loot item that allows +1d8 against banes (which includes barriers) with the Demon trait. In that scenario, it's probably best if everyone stacks on one location to take advantage of the banner, unless you're confident of your abilities to go without. Stacking would also give synergy with other characters (Lem, Valeros, Meliski, ...). This is what we did in these scenarios and I think it would be even more critical with 6 players.

Also, in AD 2 you have 2 power surges that can change a D4 into a D20. Seems like a good time to use it. If you're missing a skill, people can take turns at using power surges.

Of course you can always house rule stuff, but that's how I'd deal with it legitimately.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Wow. What banner?

And you mean by "power surge" the mythic Charge, right? So, let's see you need to pass a Knowledge 8 check and you have a d4, would you really spend a charge to change the d4 to a d20 and then still have a pretty high chance of failing?


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Jason S wrote:

By AP 2, you should have the Banner loot item that allows +1d8 against banes (which includes barriers) with the Demon trait. In that scenario, it's probably best if everyone stacks on one location to take advantage of the banner, unless you're confident of your abilities to go without. Stacking would also give synergy with other characters (Lem, Valeros, Meliski, ...). This is what we did in these scenarios and I think it would be even more critical with 6 players.

Also, in AD 2 you have 2 power surges that can change a D4 into a D20. Seems like a good time to use it. If you're missing a skill, people can take turns at using power surges.

Of course you can always house rule stuff, but that's how I'd deal with it legitimately.

A few issues. 1. You don't get the banner until 2-5, the last scenario of AD2. 2. The armies don't have the Demon trait (weird, I know). 3. Those surges only work on your mythic stats, so they'd be worthless if you don't have the skill, or it's not the right mythic path. 4. I can't think of a single same-location synergy character in WotR, so if you're using characters from the set, being at the same location doesn't help. (I'm not using characters from this set currently, but I will in later runs).


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isaic16 wrote:
4. I can't think of a single same-location synergy character in WotR, so if you're using characters from the set, being at the same location doesn't help. (I'm not using characters from this set currently, but I will in later runs).

Balazar the Tyranomancer's powers, Enora's damage reduction, Kyra's healing, seelah's d6 to a check, and Shardra's rerolls are all same-location synergies.


Alain's gloryhoudning!, Don't forget Alain.


First World Bard wrote:
isaic16 wrote:
4. I can't think of a single same-location synergy character in WotR, so if you're using characters from the set, being at the same location doesn't help. (I'm not using characters from this set currently, but I will in later runs).
Balazar the Tyranomancer's powers, Enora's damage reduction, Kyra's healing, seelah's d6 to a check, and Shardra's rerolls are all same-location synergies.

Also, Adowyn can share her summon-evasion power after a power feat.


Sandslice wrote:
First World Bard wrote:
isaic16 wrote:
4. I can't think of a single same-location synergy character in WotR, so if you're using characters from the set, being at the same location doesn't help. (I'm not using characters from this set currently, but I will in later runs).
Balazar the Tyranomancer's powers, Enora's damage reduction, Kyra's healing, seelah's d6 to a check, and Shardra's rerolls are all same-location synergies.
Also, Adowyn can share her summon-evasion power after a power feat.

She doesn't need to to be at the same location to do that. Yet another reason Andowyn is better than the character you play ;)


Also, 'Team Mythic Marshal' (any of Balzar, Seelah, Alain and Crowe) love to hang out together to just toss tokens back and forth on every single STR/CHA roll. The synergy is just stupid.


isaic16 wrote:
A few issues. 1. You don't get the banner until 2-5, the last scenario of AD2. 2. The armies don't have the Demon trait (weird, I know). 3. Those surges only work on your mythic stats, so they'd be worthless if you don't have the skill, or it's not the right mythic path. 4. I can't think of a single same-location synergy character in WotR, so if you're using characters from the set, being at the same location doesn't help. (I'm not using characters from this set currently, but I will in later runs).

Yes, I mean Mythic charges.

Sorry, everything I write is from an OP perspective.
1) In OP we got the banner much earlier than that. Just assumed campaign would be the same. It was extremely helpful.

2) OP scenarios fixed the problem and our armies had the demonic trait. I remember it being weird that the official henchmen didn't (especially with a horde of demons on the front of the card). Is that a mistake?

3) Right, I guess you need to get lucky with your skills.

4) We used class decks and the character synergy helped carry us through scenarios.

Pathfinder ACG Developer

Joshua Birk 898 wrote:
Alain's gloryhoudning!, Don't forget Alain.

Alain sure doesn't!

For clarity, there are 3 armies in AD2. One is undead. One is demons. One is neither. (OP made no changes there)


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Keith Richmond wrote:
Joshua Birk 898 wrote:
Alain's gloryhoudning!, Don't forget Alain.

Alain sure doesn't!

For clarity, there are 3 armies in AD2. One is undead. One is demons. One is neither. (OP made no changes there)

That makes sense. We've only played through 2-3, so we must not have seen the Demon army yet. That makes sense, since I distinctly remember several of those in the written AP.


Keith Richmond wrote:
For clarity, there are 3 armies in AD2. One is undead. One is demons. One is neither. (OP made no changes there)

I'm not sure what you mean by OP didn't make any changes? The armies I'm referring to were are in the OP scenarios themselves and needed to be proxied by other cards. Originally the OP armies didn't have the demonic trait but that was corrected by Tanis. Maybe reversed again but that's how it was when I played it.

We also encountered the army that didn't have either the undead or demonic trait (in AD 2 itself). It had demons in the illustration and was called something like Demonic Army, so to us it wasn't a very intuitive to us that it didn't have the demonic trait.

Pathfinder ACG Developer

WotR AD2 Armies
Undead Company (Undead)
Demonic Platoon (Demon)
Worldwound Cadre (neither)

I suspect the Cadre is supposed to represent Cultist Armies and maybe Tiefling armies from the original adventure _but I do not know_. Its artwork is indeed suggestive, as you say. I'll make sure the powers what be are happy with its traits, on general principle.

If you're referring to the Demon Patrols from SotR AD2 that summon demons to fight if you fail, they're a different beastie. I can guarantee that I gave them no traits at all when I originally dashed off the idea for them; Demon was totally added later but not before any Origins playtest.

P.S. Thanks for playtesting!

Adventure Card Game Designer

The Worldwound Cadre has some demons in it. But not enough to give them immunity to Electricity and Poison.

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Developer

isaic16 wrote:
The armies don't have the Demon trait (weird, I know).

There are multiple armies in the adventure, broken roughly into three different types for variety and strategy: the mostly-undead group, the mostly-demonic group, and the mostly-cultists-and-soliders group. As it turns out, the art for the Worldwound Cadre ended up more Demon-looking than we expected, and that is a little jarring. We might do something with errata on that, but it will not be a functional change -- it's intentional that there is an army with Undead, one with Demon, and one with neither.

isaic16 wrote:
4. I can't think of a single same-location synergy character in WotR, so if you're using characters from the set, being at the same location doesn't help.

FWIW, before Role cards are added, Kyra, Seelah, Adowyn, and Shardra all have same-location helping powers. (Once Roles are added, most of the characters have at least one, but you're not there in AD2, of course.)

Shardra, in particular, came out of development with the subtitle "Everyone wants a Shardra."

Aside: It's a little surprising to me that all 4 of the pre-role "helper" characters are female. I'm definitely going to keep an eye on that for the future.

And now I see that Keith and Mike already addressed the army-traits question. That'll teach me to not read all of the thread before replying! :-)

Thanks for playing!


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Enora too. She can reduce damage for characters at her location.


Lemme think quick. Just before role:

-Adowyn: Summon-evasion can support at any location.
-Alain: Nothing.
-Balazar: Nothing.
-Crowe: Nothing.
-Enora: Her elemental resistance power can support at her location.
-Harsk: As often as not, his "fighter power" facilitates supporting at other locations (bows and crossbows.)
-Imrijka: Nothing.
-Kyra: Heals someone at her location when she throws blessings at bane checks and/or uses Blast Evil.
-Seelah: Can toss a card off her deck to buff ANY check at her location.
-Seoni: Nothing.
-Shardra: Gives a reroll power at her location.

Also, keep in mind that the Wrath team has seven ladies in it, three of whom belong to classes known for support powers (cleric, paladin, and shaman.) So it shouldn't surprise too much. :)

After role:

-Adowyn: Nothing further.
-Alain: (GH) His kill-steal power counts here. :)
-Balazar: Tyro gives him monster-as-armour and a passive bonus against summoned monsters at his location.
-Crowe: The opposite of nothing, Crowe can HURT himself and friends at his location to buff his combat.
-Enora: Nothing further; both roles give some improvement to her elemental resistance.
-Harsk: DS has a support power against demons, at any location.
-Imrijka: WJ can support at other locations.
-Kyra: EG supports armour use at her location.
-Seelah: IB lets her "heal" allies at her location by using Blessing of Iomedae, plus she has "use herself as armour" at her location.
-Seoni: Still nothing.
-Shardra: Visionary spreads Knowledge to barriers, plus shares some (or all) of Shardra's subskills at her location.

And Mythic Paths:
-Hierophant and Marshal have burn powers that support allies at location (healing and getting charges, respectively.) Both of these have support 5-charge powers (resurrection and distributing charges.) Guardian also has a support 5-charge (closing a location even on someone else's attempt.)


Joshua Birk 898 wrote:

Isaic,

The only other pieces of advice I wanted to offer was, don't sleep on Kyra. Against army banes that have the undead and deamon trait, she can use her power to role divine for everything. That helps gives some much needed flexibility.

This was life saving advice. Playing through 2-2 and just defeated the first Undead Company to appear.

Took us ten cards expended with Kyra taking on the Stealth check as you suggested!


And Imrijka just turned over another the very next turn....we're in trouble :(


Question regarding undead company. Does failing the checks impart damage? Or do we simply all take the bury a boon consequence. ( which by my reading since it's a barrier would be the case)

Oh my gosh. Does that mean those are non-combat combat checks????


It's a barrier (so you don't take Combat damage just for failing,) and the Combat checks are still Combat checks (consider the Blessing of Shax, which has Combat to acquire.)

The whole party, and the location's boon supply, will suffer the effects of failure. There's just no Combat damage involved - at least with THIS barrier.

Worldwound Cadre, which you'll fight several times in the next scenario, deals Combat damage - but that's its undefeat power, just as the bury is Undead's undefeat power.


I'm surprised that it's just armies that are causing you to burn tons of cards. I'm running Balazar, Enora, Aowyn, and Seelah, and pretty much any of the "everyone in he party gets hit" type barriers cause me to use up at least one characters hand. This is one of the things I love about this set, I really have to think about evrlery move I make and prepare for contingencies. I also burn a lot more turns healing up instead of in RotR where you just keep pushing guns blazing without worry. Character movement, grouping vs spreading out, turn order, etc all play a huge role! I have yet to lose to an army, though many were close, but this is because I usually don't explore the next turn after one if one of my characters is low on cards in their hand. Of course this also slows my gameplay down a bit, my group of three players with one AP guy (not me) churns out scenarios about 1 an hour or so, each WotR takes me about 2 hours solo, and afterwards I'm mentally spent, and I love it! One thing that helps is keeping an assortment of allies with you at all times, allies that give you noncombat stat bonuses have been huge, I have had to fight the instinct of just using them as explore fodder. I also have balanced out Enora's deck with spells that boost other stats, Sagacity lets me use Seelah on a divine check to defeat an army, Glibness can help with a diplomacy check, Etc... Also, don't be afraid to use those corrupted blessings even if the top of the blessing deck is corrupted, 2d on a roll can be huge even at the cost of tossing away another card. It boils down to, would you rather beat it and rest a turn, or it and suffer the consequences.

Being able to cycle your deck is the most important ability in WotR, if the bulk of your party doesn't have a way to cycle cards you're in for a very tough time. Enora ends up playing like a versatile Sajan with her ability to pull spells that she's played back into her deck, by the end of most scenarios she's seeing the same spells she just played drawn right back into her hand, Balazars top decking his cards to activate Padrig is huge, in a worst case scenario where he's had to fight or make str checks out of his turn being able to pull important cards out of harms way has been life saving. I keep the loot shard on him that gives the user a one time heal if buried, so once it's in hand I usually make it my prime top deck card, so I always know where it is keeping it safe from hand wipe until I need it. Aowyn is constantly recycling good cards to pull her wolf back into hand, which in turn lets me protect a heal that was drawn too early.

I think one of the things that would make the armies crazy hard would be using home brewed characters. The heroes in the box are designed with an eye towards this set and the challenges it poses, if you're using home brewed they don't take into account things that may be important in these later scenarios simply because they weren't made by the devs, it is impossible for their creators to know what to expect. Wrath is geared so strongly towards party make up and synergies that I could easily see people getting to a point where they face nearby winnable conditions simply because they are too clustered in their skills. That said the one thing that really makes me cringe is thinking of the Abbotier (sp?) with 6 members in your party, yikes!


The Siege of Drezen (WOTR 2-3) is giving me fits.

My six character group lacks the Survival skill and on this army Kyra cannot use her power to take on the lacking skill

I played it last night and played it incorrectly ( I noticed the armies lacked the demon/undead trait afterwards, I blame the artwork!)

I still lost being unable to complete the 7th location in the allotted time. Even with Kyra's ability a 12 check is by no means a sure thing. I found myself spending blessings and other abilities at a frightening clip to get through Knowledge and Charisma and Ranged 12 checks. Nor is a combat 18 routine :/

I failed against armies twice, demonic horde came out twice ....Kyra was so busy blessing and healing she rarely got her own turn.

Do the developers have any suggestions on what to do if I play this correctly????

That d4 for survival is looking fairly inadequate about now.


What's the rest of your group?


In turn order

Alain, Seoni, Imrijka, Kyra, Balazar, Seelah

Edit;

Just to get things moving I'm going to house rule there's an extra Combat 18 choice available

I believe all of these should have had 7 choices so as not to unfairly punish 6 player groupings. ( every other player level gets some sort if choice )


Does your Balazar have the ability to spend monsters to help with barriers yet? If so you can have him discard spells to get monsters to help, then you won't need to use blessings on him. Other than that it's going to be all about the medals you have, the allies you have, and your buff spells. also keep an eye out for the horn that gives bonuses against armies, I believe I used that a lot. Armies are definitely easier with a smaller party, my group was built to complement each other so I have Aowyn for ranged and stealth, Seelah for divine, diplomacy, and Melee, Enora for knowledge and arcane, and Balazar for str, char, and arcane. It took me until about half way through AD2 to start to appreciate Balazar's ability to discard spells for monsters, having a 4 monster hand makes most checks fairly trivial (provided they use the right stat.

One thing you might want to do is put Kyra first in turn order. That way on your first check if you get an army right away she has her full mitt of cards, then she will have a fresh hand as you power through the first location or two.


The horn of assured victory!!!!

Adds a d4..... LOL

my gosh the boons in this set are underwhelming

With a name like that in an earlier set you could have recharged it to take care of one of the checks!

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