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I'm pretty sure mechanically speaking, the katana is one of many exotic upgrades to the longsword.
The katana has a better threat range.
The falcata has a better critical multiplier.
The sawtooth sabre works with two weapon fighting.
The dueling sword is finessable.
All but the falcata can be used without exotic proficiency, and function in one way or another like a longsword.
What a dull conversation.
Indeed.
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Katanas were never used against plate mail and as such there is no reason to compare to weapons designed to fight heavier armor.It matters because we're talking about how good they should be in the context of Pathfinder - and in Pathfinder they DO have to go up against plate mail.
If we were still doing the weapons vs AC type chart type of thing that went out with Second Edition, your point would be valid. Stilettos would be the Achilles Heel of chain armor, and so on.
Now Rule of Cool is a far more important consideration than blade simulation accuracy.
I don't remember me suggesting any such thing. It's be one of those things which is kinda cool in theory, but breaks the KISS rule too hard to be viable.
However - for those who argue the katana should be far superior to other blades and have that reflected mechanically - it's a strong counter-point. As to it being 'cool' - that's an entirely subjective opinion.
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What a dull conversation.
I personally enjoy conversations about weapon forging.
Katanas were never used against plate mail and as such there is no reason to compare to weapons designed to fight heavier armor.It matters because we're talking about how good they should be in the context of Pathfinder - and in Pathfinder they DO have to go up against plate mail.
If we were still doing the weapons vs AC type chart type of thing that went out with Second Edition, your point would be valid. Stilettos would be the Achilles Heel of chain armor, and so on.
Now Rule of Cool is a far more important consideration than blade simulation accuracy.
I don't remember me suggesting any such thing. It's be one of those things which is kinda cool in theory, but breaks the KISS rule too hard to be viable.
However - for those who argue the katana should be far superior to other blades and have that reflected mechanically - it's a strong counter-point. As to it being 'cool' - that's an entirely subjective opinion.
I honestly feel the higher crit range matches the Katana well mechanically.
Meh. I don't think a katana is likelier to crit then any other sword. It MIGHT have a bigger crit because it is made to inflict gaping wounds.
If anything, it would have reduced crit range against heavier armor/nat armors, but a higher multiplier.
But, for gaming purposes, it's fine. You can either call it a bastard sword, or use the katana rule. I personally prefer to just call it a variant bastard sword and be done with it. If you want a 2h high crit weapon, grab a falchion...which is like a big, thick katana.
==Aelryinth
Meh. I don't think a katana is likelier to crit then any other sword. It MIGHT have a bigger crit because it is made to inflict gaping wounds.
If anything, it would have reduced crit range against heavier armor/nat armors, but a higher multiplier.
But, for gaming purposes, it's fine. You can either call it a bastard sword, or use the katana rule. I personally prefer to just call it a variant bastard sword and be done with it. If you want a 2h high crit weapon, grab a falchion...which is like a big, thick katana.
==Aelryinth
I think of it as it being easier to cut the flesh therefore easier to crit, but I understand your point of view on the matter.
Maybe the Katana makes more sense in an armor as DR game.
Meh. I don't think a katana is likelier to crit then any other sword. It MIGHT have a bigger crit because it is made to inflict gaping wounds.
If anything, it would have reduced crit range against heavier armor/nat armors, but a higher multiplier.
But, for gaming purposes, it's fine. You can either call it a bastard sword, or use the katana rule. I personally prefer to just call it a variant bastard sword and be done with it. If you want a 2h high crit weapon, grab a falchion...which is like a big, thick katana.
==Aelryinth
Falchions aren't really two-handers and there more like militarized machetes. so I always found them funny in pathfinder.
This for what ever reason reminded me of Scimitars and their unusually sturdy metal.
historically, maybe. In PF, they're a big curving 2h sword. So, eh!
==Aelryinth
historically, maybe. In PF, they're a big curving 2h sword. So, eh!
==Aelryinth
historically, if we went with pathfinders size conventions(weapon size is equal for 2-hand, 1 size smaller for 1-hand, and 2 size smaller for light) they'd be light weapons.
Katanas were never used against plate mail and as such there is no reason to compare to weapons designed to fight heavier armor.It matters because we're talking about how good they should be in the context of Pathfinder - and in Pathfinder they DO have to go up against plate mail.
And of course - that's one reason why they were designed that way. If you look at the development of armor in different areas of the world - weapons always shift to compensate. Perhaps the most striking (pun intended) example is the warhammer - a mediocre weapon against unarmored targets - but could puncture plate/chain-mail. In Japan they never had chain-mail or anything like European plate - so there was no reason for swords to focus on much besides slicing meat - which katanas do very well.
Not quote true. The Japanese did have the tetsubo (a great club) and a range of other club and studded weapons. Apparently very good at bashing samurai to paste (in all their armour) if you could avoid being sliced open. You just don't hear it talked about much, but it is in stories, museums and the like and saw usage amongst samurai (1 anti-armour weapon to deal with other samurai please) and warrior monks.
Also in the Sengoku era, some samurai were copying the western plate cuirass. And no wonder, because a katana is not getting through that.
No, a katana is quite heavy, and is definitely a larger sword made for being wielded in two hands. Some of the courtly blades you might be able to get away with one handing. Definitely not balanced for finesse usage.
The tetsubo is the standard weapon of the Crab clan of the Lo5R game! Basically, it's a quarterstaff with iron studs and rings on it. Tetsu-bo, iron-staff. Used, in addition to staves and hammers, far more often then swords, since swords are crappy weapons against the demons they normally fight.
Of course, the Crab are looked down on for not using traditional samurai weapons.
==Aelryinth
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I always wonder at the length of katana-based threads.
Bastard sword is the game equivalent of a longsword with a 2h grip, and increases the average damage die by one step.
Katana is the equivalent of a scimitar with a 2h grip, and it increases the average damage die by one step.
Both can be used 2h with military weapon proficiency, and 1h with exotic weapon proficiency.
I don't really see the fuss about it. It's a weapon, it's a slightly better version of another weapon that cost a feat. You take it if you like, you don't take it if you don't like it. Just like with warhammers, picks, morningstars, battleaxes or glaive-guisarmes.
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You know what the best weapon against plate mail is? a cannon.
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Yea but is it worth the feat?
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Yea but is it worth the feat?
not really jsut Two-hand it unless you NEED an open off-hand
there is a college in Britain i believe that teaches medieval sword fighting techniques. it's funny how a lot of the advice that i skimmed over seemed to match how to play most PvP games.
Germany, too. And I believe the Scandinavian countries have weapons lodges.
Like I noted, they are seeing a comeback in some ways.
==Aelryinth
Germany, too. And I believe the Scandinavian countries have weapons lodges.
Like I noted, they are seeing a comeback in some ways.
==Aelryinth
yep I believe it was something to do with finding a bunch of old books sword masters wrote. they're way different from T.V. and movies from i saw, that's for sure.
As someone who frequently has her name autocorrected to Katana, I'd like to think I'm pretty useful.
your avatar makes this creepy
yep I believe it was something to do with finding a bunch of old books sword masters wrote. they're way different from T.V. and movies from i saw, that's for sure.Germany, too. And I believe the Scandinavian countries have weapons lodges.
Like I noted, they are seeing a comeback in some ways.
==Aelryinth
Cinematic swordplay is indeed much less different from real swordplay. Flashy stuff gets you killed. Spin moves are the most guilty of this. The first person to attack is generally the one at a disadvantage.
Lots of youtube videos on the swordplay these people worked out from the manuals. European swordplay was extremely deep and detailed, it just wasn't preserved like in Japan.
==Aelryinth
yep I believe it was something to do with finding a bunch of old books sword masters wrote. they're way different from T.V. and movies from i saw, that's for sure.Germany, too. And I believe the Scandinavian countries have weapons lodges.
Like I noted, they are seeing a comeback in some ways.
==Aelryinth
Cinematic swordplay is indeed much less different from real swordplay. Flashy stuff gets you killed. Spin moves are the most guilty of this. The first person to attack is generally the one at a disadvantage.
Lots of youtube videos on the swordplay these people worked out from the manuals. European swordplay was extremely deep and detailed, it just wasn't preserved like in Japan.
==Aelryinth
well yeah, but from what i read from one of the colleges (this was a day or two ago, i was looking for names of swordsmen as a profession), the say to be very aggressive and to not react to your enemy, try to attack them as they're preparing to attack, go for the legs or head if you can.
lot of stuff on "parrying" too, try to deflect away on the flat part, hammer into the flat part if it;s offered to you. there's also a lot of positions where you hold your sword in places that have a blade(north of the hilt) to give yourself more leverage.
one of the things i saw was grabbing your own blade near the end and using it to block with the hilt high, and then move into elbow with your raised arm on the hilt.(this is against attacks toward the legs)
sure, putting your hand on your blade for more leverage, speed and to shorten the grip is a good tactic in close. Nothing wrong with it.
It's just brutal and not very pretty compared to two guys doing a slashing sword dance with one another. It's more a back and forth then a parry-parry-parry thing.
==Aelryinth
I always wonder at the length of katana-based threads.
Bastard sword is the game equivalent of a longsword with a 2h grip, and increases the average damage die by one step.
Katana is the equivalent of a scimitar with a 2h grip, and it increases the average damage die by one step.
Both can be used 2h with military weapon proficiency, and 1h with exotic weapon proficiency.
I don't really see the fuss about it. It's a weapon, it's a slightly better version of another weapon that cost a feat. You take it if you like, you don't take it if you don't like it. Just like with warhammers, picks, morningstars, battleaxes or glaive-guisarmes.
D8 scimitar? Yeah that might be a good ruling. Perhaps -1 to hit against plate if you want to get fancy.
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Weapon vs armor modifiers are a bad idea.
Should the katana have a -1 vs dragon plate? What about a dragon? An iron golem? A wyvern? A dinosaur? Are we going to rate every monster?
If katanas (and scimitars and other slashing curved blades) get -1 to hit plate... Should they get extra damage vs unarmored targets? Where do you stop the realism madness?
1d8 18+ crit us right now what they are. It's fine, a "bastard scimitar". That's ok.
Nodachi con the other hand, really needs a nerf
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Weapon vs armor modifiers are a bad idea.
Should the katana have a -1 vs dragon plate? What about a dragon? An iron golem? A wyvern? A dinosaur? Are we going to rate every monster?
If katanas (and scimitars and other slashing curved blades) get -1 to hit plate... Should they get extra damage vs unarmored targets? Where do you stop the realism madness?
1d8 18+ crit us right now what they are. It's fine, a "bastard scimitar". That's ok.
Nodachi con the other hand, really needs a nerf
i said earlier it should be just be armor as DR and then have the DR typed, so liek full plate is weak against bludgeoning. etc.
if you were going to do this anyway.
Full plate isn't weak against bludgeon, it's weakEST against it. It's still better then leather or mail. Proper plate mail would have a bonus against slash/pierce and be normal against bludgeon.
:)
==Aelryinth
Full plate isn't weak against bludgeon, it's weakEST against it. It's still better then leather or mail. Proper plate mail would have a bonus against slash/pierce and be normal against bludgeon.
:)
==Aelryinth
that is how DR/X works generally. :P
actually if this was on top of normal AC full plate might get a bit better over mithral-breastplate
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so many weapons flat out don't work against plate (for direct penetrating impact) that it's not worth it imho.D8 scimitar? Yeah that might be a good ruling. Perhaps -1 to hit against plate if you want to get fancy.I always wonder at the length of katana-based threads.
Bastard sword is the game equivalent of a longsword with a 2h grip, and increases the average damage die by one step.
Katana is the equivalent of a scimitar with a 2h grip, and it increases the average damage die by one step.
Both can be used 2h with military weapon proficiency, and 1h with exotic weapon proficiency.
I don't really see the fuss about it. It's a weapon, it's a slightly better version of another weapon that cost a feat. You take it if you like, you don't take it if you don't like it. Just like with warhammers, picks, morningstars, battleaxes or glaive-guisarmes.
MLG havels yo!
No, DR works as /against everything, nonexistent against X.
To typify plate, you'd have to do something like DR 10/Bludgeon, DR 5/-.
Or try Chain Mail! DR 10/Piercing or Bludgeon, DR5/Piercing.
:P
I could see leather as DR 5/Slashing or piercing, DR 3/Slashing, DR 1/-.
==Aelryinth
Full plate isn't weak against bludgeon, it's weakEST against it. It's still better then leather or mail. Proper plate mail would have a bonus against slash/pierce and be normal against bludgeon.
:)
==Aelryinth
that is how DR/X works generally. :P
actually if this was on top of normal AC full plate might get a bit better over mithral-breastplate
But then, again: why full plate gets this bonus, but an Iron Golem doesnt? Or a dragon? What about a chimaera? A Balor? A Stegosaur? A Dire Bear with Barkskin? A dire bear with Ironskin? A will o the wisp? A ghost? A ghost with full plate? What if the katana is vorpal? Or keen? Or adamantine? What if it's a +4 katana that hits DR as adamantine? What if it's greater magic weapon?
If katanas have low piercing power vs plate... What about claws? Or fangs? Shouldn't it be even líder? Should we punish druids and natural weapon rangers/barbarians/bloodragers/animal companions? Should we lower the CR if tigers and other animals/monsters with claws?
People keep trying to add realism to a Fantasy game. It doesn't work. Things are too diferent. Too much things to change, for a weak "benefit": slightly more realist sword to sword fight, in a game where mis level fighters drink cyanide and grapple rhinos with a hand tied to their back. Not worth it at all
Full plate isn't weak against bludgeon, it's weakEST against it. It's still better then leather or mail. Proper plate mail would have a bonus against slash/pierce and be normal against bludgeon.
:)
==Aelryinth
that is how DR/X works generally. :P
actually if this was on top of normal AC full plate might get a bit better over mithral-breastplate
But then, again: why full plate gets this bonus, but an Iron Golem doesnt? Or a dragon? What about a chimaera? A Balor? A Stegosaur? A Dire Bear with Barkskin? A dire bear with Ironskin? A will o the wisp? A ghost? A ghost with full plate? What if the katana is vorpal? Or keen? Or adamantine? What if it's a +4 katana that hits DR as adamantine? What if it's greater magic weapon?
If katanas have low piercing power vs plate... What about claws? Or fangs? Shouldn't it be even líder? Should we punish druids and natural weapon rangers/barbarians/bloodragers/animal companions? Should we lower the CR if tigers and other animals/monsters with claws?
People keep trying to add realism to a Fantasy game. It doesn't work. Things are too diferent. Too much things to change, for a weak "benefit": slightly more realist sword to sword fight, in a game where mis level fighters drink cyanide and grapple rhinos with a hand tied to their back. Not worth it at all
they would natural armor would get a bonus different from light/med/heavy armor which is how i would separate the DR given.
only highest AC value would apply the DR. which would all have some weakness based on damage type.
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Frankly - having armor as DR would be very cool in my opinion. (As to weapon types etc - I'd just make the base damage of weapons such as the warhammer lower, but with inherent armor piercing.)
But frankly - the entire system would need to be rebuilt from the ground up - tacking it onto the current system seems like a very bad idea.
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Frankly - having armor as DR would be very cool in my opinion. (As to weapon types etc - I'd just make the base damage of weapons such as the warhammer lower, but with inherent armor piercing.)
But frankly - the entire system would need to be rebuilt from the ground up - tacking it onto the current system seems like a very bad idea.
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That's the problem.
Dragon scales don't stop katanas. Unless you remove them from the dragon and build a full plate with them. All of it in the name of realism.
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like this?Frankly - having armor as DR would be very cool in my opinion. (As to weapon types etc - I'd just make the base damage of weapons such as the warhammer lower, but with inherent armor piercing.)
But frankly - the entire system would need to be rebuilt from the ground up - tacking it onto the current system seems like a very bad idea.
No - that system is Terrible because the game isn't balanced around it. Frankly - everyone but monks become freakishly easy to hit - and it shifts the game even moreso to pounce & two-handed PA, with the possible exception of Pummeling Style & Clustered Shot - and it lets you basically ignore any lesser creatures. A level 2 character in full plate could walk through a kobold lair with virtual impunity.
Not to mention that the CR system would need to be entirely re-vamped as being a larger creature suddenly makes foes FAR scarier, both because they tend to do more damage per swing anyway, and may just ignore your new DR entirely.
I'd like to think that the Medieval Western Style of sword fighting from the books has gotten away from the CA thing, and gotten closer to how fencing has been (Was a fencer as taught in school and a short stint on the team for a while). Basically that was NOTHING like CA swordplay, nor what you see on the movies.
The basic move was to extend your arm and go through (or let them impale themselves) them. Of course you had your parry and other items, but overall it was much more direct then other things. It also had a lot of footwork that was involved.
I had read some of the basic broadsword fighting from the 17th and 18th centuries, but that is a far cry from medieval swordsmanship. Even then, it was FAR different then what CA or other societies were teaching at the time. It also was far more direct (and in some ways brutal). You'd NEVER have someone two weapon fighting from what I gathered from that handbook....it be more like a suicidal endeavor. At least with the military issued weapons for officers.
On the otherhand, even back then, a shield was considered useful if possible (note these were officers who utilized the swords apparently, and typically it was NOT the first choice, it seemed they'd use other options prior to getting into a swordfight).
I imagine medieval swordplay would actually be similar to it in some way though.
As for the Katana...rule of cool! AT least that's what I'd say. That's where I get my idea of what Katana's do, of course, if RPGs I'd say that would hold true...as when I imagine battles I probably imagine it more in the way the CA or movies show them then what they really were like (which is probably completely brutal and ruthless as well as ordered and forward).
A "realistic" full plate should be near invulnerable to fangs, fists, whips, slashing light weapons like kukris, a lot of wooden monk weapons like the tonfa, and los of exotic weapons like bladed scarf, and drastically shift the power balance between "lots of small hits" vs "few big hits", thus reducing the number of viable melee builds.
Now ask yourself if reducing the number of viable options (animal companions, wildshaping options, monks, two weapon fighters, dagger rogues, etc) makes the game more fun.
If the answer is not, then you have to choose between fun, and simulation realism if weapons vs armors
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A "realistic" full plate should be near invulnerable to fangs, fists, whips, slashing light weapons like kukris, a lot of wooden monk weapons like the tonfa, and los of exotic weapons like bladed scarf, and drastically shift the power balance between "lots of small hits" vs "few big hits", thus reducing the number of viable melee builds.
That would be fine - but you'd need to re-balance the whole game with that in mind from the get-go.
Full plate isn't weak against bludgeon, it's weakEST against it. It's still better then leather or mail. Proper plate mail would have a bonus against slash/pierce and be normal against bludgeon.
:)
==Aelryinth
Yeah, the Aztecs had a range of club weapons, but these weren't specialised to counter Spanish plate (there were no warhammers or crow's beaks) and thus they had a lot of trouble.
Full plate isn't weak against bludgeon, it's weakEST against it. It's still better then leather or mail. Proper plate mail would have a bonus against slash/pierce and be normal against bludgeon.
:)
==Aelryinth
that is how DR/X works generally. :P
actually if this was on top of normal AC full plate might get a bit better over mithral-breastplate
But then, again: why full plate gets this bonus, but an Iron Golem doesnt? Or a dragon? What about a chimaera? A Balor? A Stegosaur? A Dire Bear with Barkskin? A dire bear with Ironskin? A will o the wisp? A ghost? A ghost with full plate? What if the katana is vorpal? Or keen? Or adamantine? What if it's a +4 katana that hits DR as adamantine? What if it's greater magic weapon?
If katanas have low piercing power vs plate... What about claws? Or fangs? Shouldn't it be even líder? Should we punish druids and natural weapon rangers/barbarians/bloodragers/animal companions? Should we lower the CR if tigers and other animals/monsters with claws?
People keep trying to add realism to a Fantasy game. It doesn't work. Things are too diferent. Too much things to change, for a weak "benefit": slightly more realist sword to sword fight, in a game where mis level fighters drink cyanide and grapple rhinos with a hand tied to their back. Not worth it at all
You have a very impassioned argument, but some realism can be put into fantasy combat and a fantasy game, you just have to really base the rules around it and still try to make the rules playable and not too complicated or slow. So there is a balancing act. DR can be used for armour and certain weapons and natural weapons can be weak to certain armour types - you can have adventurers that favour heavy armour to DR down the hits and attacks of monsters and other humans alike. It can be done. A friend completely revamped armour and weapons in 3.5 giving them realistic properties and some special abilities. Very cool house rules and it fit like a shell over the existing rules. Quite a lot to keep in mind though, but didn't greatly slow down play (you just had to remember what your weapon and your proficiencies in that weapon gave you in the sense of additional abilities. Thus it was best for more low level games. Added a whole lot of options though and he really penalised large weapons in small spaced, which was nice and meant players were encouraged to have back-ups and use small weapons in small spaces. Realism and realistic rules are not unattainable.
All the best to you.