RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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This is not something that needs to be written in stone. GMs can rule this either way and be justified because it isn't defined. Lets just leave it at that. These faction cards are just extra bonuses anyway, so there's no reason that we should worry about completing them.
Its the difference between having sprinkles on your doughnut and not. If you get sprinkles great, if not, well, you're still having a doughnut.
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honestly it's much ado about a check mark.
between the injunction to "Err on the side of leniency" and the price of a pearl easily covering the component cost, it should be reasonable to let it pass at half the magic item value. It's just a social game and not a home game. This practical appeal to authority will work for many due to the structure of PFS.
I understand people wanting to say that in their opinion the pearl is only worth X amount (being less than half the magic item value). That's fine, it's all part of the GM's gray area and how they envision the details of their fantasy world and their model of how things work. That's part and parcel of D&D/Pathfinder.
The reason I'd suggest moving tables is this is a practical resolution. There will likely be more differences in opinion and the game should be fun and entertaining for everyone at the table. It is a game of Let's Pretend after all.
Yeah, but suggesting that you'd advise them not to sit at someones table, who you disagree with, is inflammatory at best.
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ya know - I think I just beat the potion bandwagon and that tasteless Potion Sponge... chocolate coated doughnut holes of cure light wounds!
Speaking of items that hold potions...
Anytime players find potions at my table, I make sure to add in what flavor it tastes/smells like/color it is. This can be especially amusing when they find multiple potions and they botch at identifying one of them. "Oooh, that one is dark purple, and smells a like plums, but also a little sour."
Then you get to see who is brave enough to drink things on a chance that its not gonna be a vial of poison. :P
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This is not something that needs to be written in stone. GMs can rule this either way and be justified because it isn't defined. Lets just leave it at that. These faction cards are just extra bonuses anyway, so there's no reason that we should worry about completing them.
Its the difference between having sprinkles on your doughnut and not. If you get sprinkles great, if not, well, you're still having a doughnut.
This isn't just a opinion of a point of view, it's a objective fact, how we feel about it doesn't change what the rules say, or what the words in the rules mean. There is no definition of "Gems" that includes unspoken/unwritten restrictions to which gems should count or not.
I understand the arguement on why it makes sense not to count a magic gem. But anyone preparing to rule that way should expect to get pushback from players who expect the rules to be run as written, and for the GM to follow the rules of the game.
Your argument is not sound here fella. The fact this is even a discussion that is roughly split 50/50, means it isn't RAW. It has ambiguity, and therefore a GM rules on how they interpret that ambiguity.
I've said about as much as I plan to at this point, because now we are just circling the arguments back and forth. You can choose to disagree with me, and that's fine. But lets not start painting those who disagree as not following RAW and inherently breaking a rule of the campaign. You can feel as strongly as you want about it, but just because you say what you did above, doesn't make it true.
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This is not something that needs to be written in stone. GMs can rule this either way and be justified because it isn't defined. Lets just leave it at that. These faction cards are just extra bonuses anyway, so there's no reason that we should worry about completing them.
Its the difference between having sprinkles on your doughnut and not. If you get sprinkles great, if not, well, you're still having a doughnut.
GM's can rule either way on this, that is true.
But this is not a vague issue, where the GM is forced to make a ruling because the rules don't explain what to do.
A Magic Gem is a gem with a clearly defined value, printed in the text of the item. The faction card makes no qualification on what kind of gem is okay beyond it's value, and that means there are no other qualifiers on what counts. This isn't just a opinion of a point of view, it's a objective fact, how we feel about it doesn't change what the rules say, or what the words in the rules mean. There is no definition of "Gems" that includes unspoken/unwritten restrictions to which gems should count or not.
I understand the arguement on why it makes sense not to count a magic gem. But anyone preparing to rule that way should expect to get pushback from players who expect the rules to be run as written, and for the GM to follow the rules of the game.
The GM can choose to not follow the rules as much as they want, and often that can create a more fun game. But to change the rules just to deny a player a faction card checkbox, just because you think that the goal should be more difficult that what it actually says, is in very poor taste, especially when the rules explicitly says to err on the side of the player in these cases.
I don't think the suggestion to advise a player to sit at another table is inflammatory, it seems the only reasonable compromise between two party's that have wildly varying ideas of what it means to follow rules.
You can say people are entitled to their own...
Victor, just a short comment, then a simple question:
Is a magic gem a gemstone, and follows all the rules and abilities of said gemstone, or is iut a magic item, and follows the rules for magic items, and just happens to have the word Gem/Pearl/Sapphire/ETC. in its name?
So, you can use a pearl in a ring, or other setting. Can you put a Pearl of Power into a ring? How about putting a Gem of Brightness into a necklace? Could you use an Onyx that has been enchanted into some sort of magical item as the raw materials for casting Animate Dead? And, if you do, is it the pre-enhancement onyx value, or the enhanced onyx value to determine how many HD of undead you can create with it? Could you use an Onyx Dog figurine of power as the material component to cast Animate Dead? Or a Ring of Ki Mastery?
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I do not believe that a pearl is a gem, Victor. Because of that, I would support GM's that would not to allow pearls of power to count as gems for the purposes of this faction card.
I also think that GMs can choose to allow it if they so choose, given the intentional vagueness of the faction objective. I don't mind this, even though I don't feel the same way.
I also think that these faction objectives are bonuses that can be achieved and nothing more. Characters in home games don't get faction cards. Characters before 2015 didn't get faction cards. You don't need faction cards to support your faction and advance their goals.
I am not disregarding their effect on the game or the people that enjoy them, I myself enjoy them greatly. I am however stating that they are probably one of the least important things to worry about at the table. They were designed to be "extra fun" and nothing more.
As it stands now, if you come across a gem while playing, you'll get your goal checked off. If you come across a pearl of power, you might get it checked off. If this level of uncertainty irks you, I would suggest asking the GM beforehand how they would rule. There's no reason not to ask them upfront and express your opinions and see how they feel. In fact, I'd prefer that as a GM then having it come up at the end of the scenario or, even worse, during it.
I would also remind you that not all faction goals are created equal and they were not designed to be achievable in every scenario. Otherwise, you would get your 10 goals completed by level 5 and that would be that. Having difficult goals gives you something to constantly be on the look out for, like your character actually would if representing their faction so passionately.
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I do not believe that a pearl is a gem, Victor. Because of that, I would support GM's that would not to allow pearls of power to count as gems for the purposes of this faction card.
Walter: There are a lot of points on this thread that could be interpreted to say that Pearls of Power don't count. But if you're reasoning is that "Pearls aren't gems," (whether they actually are in reality or not) then you are breaking the rules:
Gems: Although you can assign any value to a gemstone, some are inherently more valuable than others. Use the value categories below (and their associated gemstones) as guidelines when assigning values to gemstones.
Low-Quality Gems (10 gp): agates; azurite; blue quartz; hematite; lapis lazuli; malachite; obsidian; rhodochrosite; tigereye; turquoise; freshwater (irregular) pearl
Semi-Precious Gems (50 gp): bloodstone; carnelian; chalcedony; chrysoprase; citrine; jasper; moonstone; onyx; peridot; rock crystal (clear quartz); sard; sardonyx; rose, smoky, or star rose quartz; zircon
Medium Quality Gemstones (100 gp): amber; amethyst; chrysoberyl; coral; red or brown-green garnet; jade; jet; white, golden, pink, or silver pearl; red, red-brown, or deep green spinel; tourmaline
High Quality Gemstones (500 gp): alexandrite; aquamarine; violet garnet; black pearl; deep blue spinel; golden yellow topaz
Jewels (1,000 gp): emerald; white, black, or fire opal; blue sapphire; fiery yellow or rich purple corundum; blue or black star sapphire
Grand Jewels (5,000 gp or more): clearest bright green emerald; diamond; jacinth; ruby ...
The CRB says pearls are gems. I just wanted to make sure that was clear for the purposes of this debate.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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If my players believe that I am breaking the rules, then I will discuss it with them at the table and explain my perspective. If they have a hard time accepting my opinion, then I am happy to make an exception. One faction card goal isn't enough of a reason for me to spoil a table experience.
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Can we go back to discussing donuts? This thread was a lot more informative when we were talking about donuts. For what its worth, yeast raised, with lots of frosting and sprinkles are pretty awesome.
I'm going to have to get donuts for my home game now...
Edit: Also, what Walter said. Let's not let one check box on one faction card get us this worked up. Its just not worth it. We could be worrying about much more important things, like what types of donuts to get.
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Can we go back to discussing donuts? This thread was a lot more informative when we were talking about donuts. For what its worth, yeast raised, with lots of frosting and sprinkles are pretty awesome.
I'm going to have to get donuts for my home game now...
Edit: Also, what Walter said. Let's not let one check box on one faction card get us this worked up. Its just not worth it. We could be worrying about much more important things, like what types of donuts to get.
what if my 1000gp donut has gems in it does it still qualify
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what if my 1000gp donut has gems in it does it still qualifyCan we go back to discussing donuts? This thread was a lot more informative when we were talking about donuts. For what its worth, yeast raised, with lots of frosting and sprinkles are pretty awesome.
I'm going to have to get donuts for my home game now...
Edit: Also, what Walter said. Let's not let one check box on one faction card get us this worked up. Its just not worth it. We could be worrying about much more important things, like what types of donuts to get.
Not after I finish eating it, gems and all! I don't care if it's a hyper-intelligent sentient donut come from the past to tell us the truth about Aroden, if it's a donut in a scenario I'mma gonna eat it!
Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Pullman
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Not after I finish eating it, gems and all! I don't care if it's a hyper-intelligent sentient donut come from the past to tell us the truth about Aroden, if it's a donut in a scenario I'mma gonna eat it!what if my 1000gp donut has gems in it does it still qualifyCan we go back to discussing donuts? This thread was a lot more informative when we were talking about donuts. For what its worth, yeast raised, with lots of frosting and sprinkles are pretty awesome.
I'm going to have to get donuts for my home game now...
Edit: Also, what Walter said. Let's not let one check box on one faction card get us this worked up. Its just not worth it. We could be worrying about much more important things, like what types of donuts to get.
A teaching donut...
Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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This is not something that needs to be written in stone. GMs can rule this either way and be justified because it isn't defined. Lets just leave it at that. These faction cards are just extra bonuses anyway, so there's no reason that we should worry about completing them.
Its the difference between having sprinkles on your doughnut and not. If you get sprinkles great, if not, well, you're still having a doughnut.
SPRINKLES! :D :D :D
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well - the whole thing has spun into more than it really warrants. It clearly falls into GMs gray area and could go either way. I don't think it's a big issue unless you think it's a big issue (lol).
I insulted Andrew, which is not something I wanted to do... so I publicly extend my apology after privately doing so.
I just wanted to say that if it's that big a deal to you... do something diplomatic.
I appreciate the derail attempt.
It should be a bit of a surprise if this even comes up in practical play due to the confluence of events that have to come together. If it does - use your best judgement.
I can see a player being unhappy with "no" to this question at the wrap up of an adventure. I'd say it's not a BIG deal. Don't worry - they'll be other adventures with other gems and even some that were meant for this faction card mission.
If you want an easy series of checkmarks - GM!
no worries my friend
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I also posted the Dictionary definition of Gems which included semi precious stones, so I don't understand how you are being lenient.
If the dictionary and the GMG says its a gem what qualifies you or any of us to say otherwise? I can understand if you rule that magic value doesn't count but the arguing against the GMG and the English Language Dictionary doesnt make sense to me.
I'm sorry the additional resources doesn't list Websters. I also can't find any Huffstutler on the additional resources page. Can you tell me which resource & page that is from? :)
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For those keeping score.
I will count pearls as gemstones.
I will not count wondrous items as gemstones.
The CRB lists gemstones separate from magic items. It also says 'non-magical treasures can have jewels added.' And this gives a detailed look at what magic items are there.
Magic items in the CRB says 'The item cost does not influence the base price (which determines the cost of magic supplies), but it does increase the final market price.' Which I interpret as unless a material is expensive, it doesn't show up in the market cost. Note the cost of a pearl of power is one half market cost, where as a shatterspike is one half market cost plus cost of the MW longsword.
I will vehemently deny every saying so if I never see qualifying gems in any scenario.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Pullman
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Re: are pearls gems.
1) The rules of the game clearly list them as gems.
2) the dictionary definitions listed do nothing to contradict this: saying that a stone cannot be biologically produced ignores those layers of limestone you have a good chance to be standing on.
I am going to assume this was pointed in my direction.
1) That is fine.
I don't expect a person who writes rules for a game to put a lot of effort into fact checking every aspect of the rules to make sure it fits into the laws of nature as humankind understands them. I think we can look at projectile trajectory as an example of how the laws of physics were discarded in favor of simplicity. A change I am completely in favor of.
The Game designers looked at pearls and generalized them in with gemstones. Sounds like a decent grouping. I thought I made a decent effort to show that it was a grey area in my post, obviously I failed, my apologies.
That being said, the table presented has been shown the most expensive pearl you can purchase is a Black Pearl worth 500g. Qualifying for a 1st level character's Faction goal. The pearl of power states it uses an average quality pearl, this is the specific reason I disqualify it for success. You can rule it differently if you so choose and I hold no ill will towards you for doing so.
2) Stones can absolutely be made up of biological components. Limestone is a sedimentary rock usually made up of skeletal fragments of marine creatures like coral. Coal is a sedimentary rock composed of a great deal of organic components. More examples include Oil Shales, Oil Sands, lignite, and even fossil beds.
Minerals cannot be made up of organic components. A Pearl is not a mineral.
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ya know - I think I just beat the potion bandwagon and that tasteless Potion Sponge... chocolate coated doughnut holes of cure light wounds!I've decided to call my potion/bakery shop "Jellalujah".
"Zon Custard" was a close second...{edit} 'course my motto is, "Ich bin ein berliner"
Did he just say he was a dougnut?
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Did he just say he was a dougnut?ya know - I think I just beat the potion bandwagon and that tasteless Potion Sponge... chocolate coated doughnut holes of cure light wounds!I've decided to call my potion/bakery shop "Jellalujah".
"Zon Custard" was a close second...{edit} 'course my motto is, "Ich bin ein berliner"
I wish I were a doughnut
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He's American. It's slang. He's a f*$&in doughnut. A f~$%in doughnut.
It's an Eddie Izzard bit. He's talking about how JFK went to Berlin and used the phrase Stephen quoted above. He was trying to say 'Im a Berliner', but 'Berliner' is a type of doughnut I guess. And then people thinking it was intentional and cool.
It's been awhile since Ive watched that bit, so I might be misremembering parts of it.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
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With regards to the original question:
I'm sure they had a similair discussion at Wizards of the Coast! ;-)
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Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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He's American. It's slang. He's a f~@&in doughnut. A f@@%in doughnut.
** spoiler omitted **
Even tough you call a persone from berlin a berliner... so that's weird.
The pastries are called Berliner Pfannkuchen (so pancakes), and of course are also called Berliner for short...German is awesome!
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Sorry, but I think, that even calling them pancakes, is a little bit confusing, since I usually just form them into a semi round shape, and throw them into the boiling fat.
Once they are ready, you just fish them out of the oil, try to remove excess fat with a couple of paper kitchen towels, add sugar to the outside.
There are several important views when it comes to the sugar, some prefer powdered sugar, and some caster sugar.
After that step they are basically done, but many prefer them filled with jam.
... ... ... Damn, I think I have found the next food item for some of our game days.
And I am pretty sure they could work as a sage jewel^^