Actually, it's my son's ninja for my RotRL campaign. I'll put some of the basic stat info in the spoiler below. The character is going to be a Sandpoint native, working as a salesclerk in the display room of the Glassworks as he secretly trains to be a ninja. As far as his role in the party, with an invulnerable rager barbarian & a reach-combat inquisitor, he's planning on being the flanker/precision-damage guy. The bard is going to be the party face, & the zen-archer monk will handle primary ranged combat.
STR12, DEX18, CON13, INT10, WIS10, CHA14
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Dodge
Skills: pretty much the basic set (Stealth, Disable Device, etc.)
Traits: Blood of the Dragon (low-light vision), Favored Son (Ameiko)
Everything has been going smooth so far, but we're needing help with the equipment.
*Clothing: There doesn't seem to be anything I can find for ninja outfits or other eastern wear. Unless something else is discovered, he'll probably have to go with a pickpocket's outfit.
*Armor: The pc will be wearing a standard ninja-type outfit, so my son wants to keep the armor light enough to wear under his outfit. At this point, we're looking mostly at a haramaki, with the idea of moving up to a mithral chain shirt or a dark leaf hide shirt later on (which is partly why the choice of Dodge).
*Weapons: My son has decided to start with a wakizashi, with the intent of moving to TWF @ 3rd level - although there was some debate about going with TWF right @ 1st level. Regardless, the big question is what direction to go for ranged; the primary options being considered are shuriken, a short bow & a light crossbow (in that order).
*General: Ideas/suggestions for fun little ninja stuff - smoke pellets come to mind as a good example.
Keep in mind the character will have average starting wealth. But any advice/suggestions/random thoughts would be welcome & appreciated.
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a kama is a good weapon option as it can be used for trip. I'd also check if a Kama, Double-Chained is the same weapon or a different.
The kusarigama is also a option as it is both a slashing and bludgeoning weapon. and has both reach and trip.
as for ranged weapons I'd recommend both Shurikens and a short bow. shurikens because he can use them with a free hand and it isn't a move action to get them. and the short bow because of increased rate of fire and later can get a damage bonus using a compound short bow.
as for equipment some options are
BOOK OF LETTERS, CALTROPS, GRAPPLING ARROW, IRON SPIKE, WRIST SHEATH, FLASH POWDER, and of course Poisons.
off topic I'd recommend he get the Press to the Wall feat from the Melee Tactics Toolbox. And get the magic Weapon Quality Agile from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide, but you will have to check with your GM to allow it.
And get the magic Weapon Quality Agile from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide, but you will have to check with your GM to allow it.
Didn't read the part where it's his sons ninja for his ROTR did you?
He's referring to the fact that I'M THE GM... lol
And yeah, I'll probably allow it later...
As well as the feat, if he decides he wants it.
Less worried about melee weapons, & more on the other stuff...
If you are planning to ever reach into level 6 - 10 using the finesse rogue talent will be a more efficient use of feats than using a feat to gain weapon finesse. Not necessary but helps later ones I have found with my own 11th level ninja.
sorry my mistake.
It's all good - I really appreciate the advice you threw out for me!
If you are planning to ever reach into level 6 - 10 using the finesse rogue talent will be a more efficient use of feats than using a feat to gain weapon finesse. Not necessary but helps later ones I have found with my own 11th level ninja.
We looked at that option, but a lot of the ninja tricks are better than feats. He was looking through them to plan what he wanted to do, & got waaay too excited when he saw & read about Vanishing Trick/Invisible Blade...
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some additional gear options
DISGUISE KIT, FORGER'S KIT, and definitely THIEVES' TOOLS.
there is a Wondrous Item in the advanced Class Guide called a Brass Spider. It is basically a magical bomb disposal robot. the user can send it out to disarm traps or locks and if the user fails the roll the Spider will get hit instead. or the user can use the Brass Spider for a +5 bonus on Disable Device. a Brass Spider cost 2,500 gp.
and one last weapon, in Ranged Tactics Toolbox there is a weapon called Kunai this is a common weapon in Ninja themed fiction. a Kunai is a light simple weapon similar to a Dagger. The differences are that a Kunai only has a 20/x2 crit and instead of slashing and piercing damage
a Kunai douse bulging and piercing damage. However the big use is that Kunai can also be used as a crowbar or piton's without damaging the weapon.
Dual Wakizashi's (poisoned), combined with vanishing trick, can make flanking easy to set up, and normally poisons are quickly made obsolete, but with the ability to stack 2, then 3 hits with TWF means the DC for those poisons increase to compensate (a bit), making them viable for longer. Craft (alchemy) plus poison use also makes poisons affordable, and Ninjas with any INT+ can afford the skill points.
MAX relevant KNOW's, so the Ninja can identify a foes weaknesses and strike from a position of advantage (or spy to gather intel).
Shurikens are great, if he makes them Bronze (no change, become fragile), and takes ninja trick>rogue talent>combat feat (Splintering Weapon) he can: Stealth>throw TWF Shuriken (Fragile, Poisoned), Shuriken (Fragile, Poisoned)> Swift KI attack Shuriken (Fragile, Poisoned) 1d2+DEX+Sneak+poison DC +1d4 Bleed, 1d2+Dex+sneak+poison DC+2 +1/2 duration +1d4 bleed, 1d2+Dex+sneak+poison DC+4 +2x duration(?) +1d4 bleed> initiative> Vanish, ALL vs flatfooted > party moves in off of Ninjas surprise round, enemy has to heal or take bleeds (using up actions), and then ninja can move in for flanking. (DEX poison can make enemies easier to hit, CON can kill them faster and reduce saves, STR makes them a smaller threat.)
Ninjas are VERY squishy, so anything that increased defence should be a priority, it is fun to set up and one-shot the wizard mid fight, only to take a hit next round from the body guard, amulet of natural armor is affordable for mid level play.
If he can max out UMD, wands can be all kinds of fun to use (Darkness, Invisibility, Charm, hold, web, etc). A cloak of the Hedge Wizard can let him use Prestidigitation + (illusion) ghost sound at will, as well as silent image (great for misdirection) 1/day. Not as great as a cloak of resistance for those WILL saves though, but a lot more flavorful. Or he can get the one with the unseen servant for shenanigans.
Ring of spider climb for hanging off rafters in the darkness, hat of disguise instead of fast disguise trick, goggles of the night (or darkvision spells), portable hole for easy moving of loot, allies, hiding, or bodies. Bag of tricks, fail stealth? vanish and drop a tiny animal in his place. Masterwork thieves tools, and pitons and rope (always, for everyone, forever).
And of course a sweet black mask and a pickpocket that looks like a monk/eastern peasant outfit (just for the sweet toe sandals).
Ranged Tactics Toolbox has kunai, if you're looking for ninja flavor. They're like daggers you can beat people with! :D
I've been meaning to pick up both Ranged Tactics Toolbox & Melee Tactics Toolbox - guess now I have an excuse! Definitely will check out the kunai idea - he's a fan of Naruto, so that would appeal to him.
We had originally decided to stay away from poisons, largely because they become ineffective so quickly. However, I will have to look at the bronze shuriken idea.
Was planning to make the pickpocket outfit resemble the traditional ninja outfit - the sandals are cool, but he's keen on the ninja tabai boots.
Definitely planning to pick up thieves' tools, but not sure how useful the disguise kit will be in this AP.
Some great suggestions so far! Do you folks have anything more for 1st level stuff? Still want to address armor, and possibly a couple cheap(er) alchemical items...
If you're not alergic to 3rd party then Rogue Glory feature a nightsuit. Not exactly armor, but definitely in the climate.
Later on you can try to get that enchanted with the same functionality as a ring of ki mastery.
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for more ealey level alchemical items
ARMOR OINTMENT reduces your armor's armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of –1) for 8 hours.
TROLL OIL for one hour after consumption if the user automatically stabilize when reduced to negative hit points (unless the damage is sufficient to instantly kill you). this can save a PC life even at higher levels.
alchemical weapons
TANGLEFOOT BAG to control spell casters and flyers.
THUNDERSTONE this is similar to FLASH POWDER but deafened instead of blinds, it also messes up spellcasters.
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It looks like he's currently a human - is he committed to that? Halflings make very solid ninjas, as do kitsune. (both have the same stat changes - +2dex/cha, -2str)
Halflings benefit from small size (accuracy/ac - the reduced damage is negligable past the first couple levels, and even then the improved accuracy is worth it) while keeping 30ft movement, +1 to saves, and a couple of skill boosts.
Kitsune get a bite attack (especially useful for any class with SA), +2 acrobatics, and eventually they gain access to a late-game pounce. The shape-changing also might fit with his vibe - human form as a clerk - fox form when ninja-ing.
As to combat styles - I'd definitely push TWF. Never a bad choice with SA, with a bard along it should really come into its own as most bard buffs are per swing - so more swings = more benefit.
To the various points, in no particular order:
* Yes, he's committed to being a human. Halfling stats/abilities for a ninja are great, but he wanted to stay human this time.
* Press to the Wall is definitely a feat to consider. Big Game Hunter is another (campaign) feat I will be highly recommending as well to most/all the melee capable pc's.
* No third-party stuff is allowed.
* He definitely wants to go with TWF - the only question was whether to do it immediately at 1st level, or to wait until 3rd. At this point, he's leaning towards waiting. If he decides to drop Dodge, he's saying he'll probably go with PBS instead.
* Trading out Poison Use for Disarm Magic Traps sounds like an idea I may want to use. I've never been a big fan of poison use, because of how quickly it becomes ineffective, so that sounds reasonable and far more useful to me.
* Still debating what he wants to do with armor...
To the various points, in no particular order:
* Yes, he's committed to being a human. Halfling stats/abilities for a ninja are great, but he wanted to stay human this time.
* Press to the Wall is definitely a feat to consider. Big Game Hunter is another (campaign) feat I will be highly recommending as well to most/all the melee capable pc's.
* No third-party stuff is allowed.
* He definitely wants to go with TWF - the only question was whether to do it immediately at 1st level, or to wait until 3rd. At this point, he's leaning towards waiting. If he decides to drop Dodge, he's saying he'll probably go with PBS instead.
* Trading out Poison Use for Disarm Magic Traps sounds like an idea I may want to use. I've never been a big fan of poison use, because of how quickly it becomes ineffective, so that sounds reasonable and far more useful to me.
* Still debating what he wants to do with armor...
Ninjas tend to prefer high DEX for defence, so light armours are your best bet, anything that keeps the +DEX numbers useful. Leather provides a +2 AC, +6 Max Dex with a 0 ACP. It is cheap and light (and thematically "quiet"). He can also add a masterwork Buckler for increased defence. Once he has the coin, he can sell it for masterwork leather enchanted with Bolstering (+Saves vs enemy), shadow (+stealth), SR, or glamered (or just use a hat of disguise). Some specific armours gives neat abilities like the Boneless leather (+Escape artist, +Acrobatics, +CMD (needs it), and DR5/P or S).
Haramaki's are great for putting enchantments on top of, are cheap, light and can be hidden under clothing, which is great.
If there are Giants in the AP (never played it), he will want to stay at range for his sneaks, TWF will let him throw twice from 30ft (out of giant range), then vanish as a swift.
Their flatfooted is very high (Even with the AC penalty vs invisible foes), PBS and ranged throwing feats to increase hit chance might be a very viable route, I would suggest TWF early, his tricks will be limited and his damage low, a second sneak at lvl 1 brings him up to par with a fighter, and may let him drop mooks in one hit (before they drop him in one hit). And later when he can trade an attack for ability damage, or prevent retaliation or otherwise disable foes, it will let him get in extra sneaks on aware enemies.
His best defence will be to never get in the thick of it, or wait till he can absolutely kill the enemy (maybe delay actions and do heal checks on the enemies, his vanish duration increases quickly). Amulet of natural armour, ring of deflection, anything to give save or luck bonuses to increase defence.
For damage, tell him to stealth, wait for the giants to sleep then Coup De Grace them with deadly Wakizashi's and his sneak =p
Seriously, a Ninja's role is one of target neutralization, caster's should be harassed, bosses bled and forced to eat actions, and he should scout to let the wizard pick the BEST spells for the encounter ahead. His skills can let him KNOW enemies weaknesses to allow for the best target selections. Most of the time he will be alone in the front, so get him some potions or wand of Cure Wounds (both can be used without removing vanish). Get him potions of resistance, guidance, magic weapon, Hide from animals (get a few of these). Alchemical items to get (or make) would be antitoxin and antiplague (his saves suck, make it less of an issue), acid or alchemists fire for swarms, or even just oil and tindertwig (he can pour oil while stealthed before the fight starts). Anything that can be thrown to hinder a foe should be considered, tanglefoots, smokesticks, and smokebombs are standard actions to cost and enemy potential full rounds (and he can still hit them with his second TWF attack).
One of the advantages of school being out is the chance to talk to my son just about every day.... so here's what he's decided on so far:
For armor, he decided to go with haramaki armor, since it's wearable under clothing. He's going to into leather later, and possibly a chain shirt (masterwork/magic of course) at higher levels.
In melee combat, he's going to use a single wakizashi to start with, mostly due to cost. He's only got 140gp to work with, and he doesn't want to blow half of it on just the wakizashi's, since he also wants to pick up some cool accessories (alchemical, etc).
Ranged combat will be a combo of shuriken when he wants to be stealth/SA, and a short bow when he wants/needs to keep out of range of enemies. The big debate is whether to pick up PBS or Dodge for his (human) bonus feat - so far, Dodge is winning because of wearing lighter armor.
Clothing will be a pickpocket's outfit, styled to look more like a traditional ninja's outfit - the bonus to hiding small objects will be useful for shuriken & extra little surprises.
We're still working on the extra goodies...
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for armor you sound like you are on the right track. I'd just add if he goes for the chain shirt it should be mithril.
one more feat recommendation is skill focus Acrobatics. In Society I am currently running a Ninja and at 3rd she has with sill focus has a Acrobatics score of 12. this is important because a Character can use Acrobatics to move through threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity if the Character beats there enemy's CMD. and as long as a dex based character keeps putting points in Acrobatics for them it will always be easier to beat a CMD than hoping the enemy does not beat their AC. This helps the Ninja getting to flanking safer.
and off topic but for the rager barbarian & a reach-combat inquisitor, in Melee Tactics Toolbox there is a magic Weapon Quality called GROWING it is a +1 magic Quality and it allows the wielder of the weapon to make the weapon for ten minutes per day one size category larger. but the wielder don't take the Inappropriately Sized weapon penalty to their attack rolls. and if the weapon has a special feature such as Trip the feature can be used on larger creatures. so a medium sized character wielding a weapon with this magic effect active can trip up to Huge sized creatures.
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It sounds like he is set with weapons but just for consideration; he is proficient with the katana. If he doesnt plan on TWF from level one he can roll with just the one, pick up Slashing grace and he has a nice boost on damage. When he gets to the TWF period he could probably afford (or nicely ask a party crafter) for an effortless lace. boom, dual wielding katana as light weapons with dex to damage. NINJA!
A katana isn't a finessable weapon unless he dips into Swashbucker & has Slashing Grace. (Not a horrible plan - but it doesn't sound like it's what he's going for.)
Skill Focus is generally a horrible idea to spend a feat for. If a human really wants it (I wouldn't reccomend it - TWF is feat hungry - so he'll need all of them - especially if he wants to be a thrower as well) take Focused Study (gives up the bonus feat for Skill Focus @ 1/8/16).
I would really reccomend the TWF at level 1. After all, it helps with both throwing & melee damage. Dodge is generally considered a mediocre feat.
For armor - he should just wear studded leather which you can 're-fluff' as brigandine. (Studded leather wasn't really a thing - it's just been grandfathered in from earlier editions where they didn't know what they were talking about. What they likely were initially describing was brigandine - a light scale armor between two layers of cloth [the studs were for holding the scales in place]. They probably just saw a picture of it. It was worn underneath clothing to be hidden - often by bandits or brigands. Hence brigandine.)
Um if the katana is sized for him an effortless lace makes it a light weapon that can be used with finesse
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Um if the katana is sized for him an effortless lace makes it a light weapon that can be used with finesse
Yes - if the game allows Effortless Lace. (Though moot at level 1 considering the 2500gp cost of Effortless Lace.) But as a light weapon Slashing Grace doesn't apply - which defeats the main reason to use a katana instead of a wakizashi.
1) Ninjas do not have a standard look. That defeats the purpose of looking like everyone else to hide your presence. The theater used the outfits the stage hands used since people were accustomed to ignoring people who looked like stage hands, thus they were "invisible" to the audience.
2) TWF is fun when it works. It does not work very often.
a) requires full-round attack
b) imposes -2 on a 3/4 BAB class at a minimum
c) ninja can't improve attack bonus the way a fighter does
d) is feat hungry
3) Shuriken are cheap, and easy to conceal. Never go without.
4) Ninjas get Short Bow free. Much better range option. [60' vs. 10']
5) If you skip TWF, you can use a shield. Make it masterwork to reduce ACP by 1. Mithral also works. Can be enchanted for AC. Can easily and cheaply give +3 defense. Also easier to split AC pumping between Armor and Shield than only Armor. For example Armor +4 costs +16000, but Armor +2 & Shield +2 costs +8000.
6) Flanking is wonderful when you get it. Be sure your party helps you get and keep it. Some GMs rule invisibility makes you not count as flanking. RAW, the rules don't care if the enemy can see you or not.
7) Vanish -> Invisible Blade: wonderful. Until you hit 10th level, your invisibility goes away as soon as you attack. Either you use lots of ki, or you only use vanish to avoid AoO. My char used it sparingly. The ki it uses is also the ki needed for that extra attack on a full attack. It is very easy to run out of ki at low levels.
8) I have heard that the Scour archetype is quite good since it allows for more opportunities for sneak attack. Since until 8th level, you have no iterative, you have little to loose if you move & attack vs. full round attack.
/cevah
* He's pretty set on going with the wakizashi's, so no katana. Again, the only real question was about going TWF right at 1st level, which he's decided against - he'll pick it up at 3rd.
* Looked up brigandine armor - studded leather now makes a lot more sense, and is definitely an option. It was originally eastern, and was introduced to the west when they invaded; easy to adapt in this context. Made to be worn under regular clothing, or look like clothing. Go with a dark color for the outer layer of cloth, use a flat-finish for the studs to eliminate glare, and you've got a solid choice for ninja armor.
* He was doing some research while I was at work, and saw the Additional Traits feat. He's considering it if he goes with the studded leather, so he can take Armor Master to eliminate the ACP on the studded leather (that would also eliminate the need for mithral on a chain shirt, should he want to go that route later) - he could also pick up Crowd Dodger for the bonuses to moving through an occupied space/leaving a threatened square. He wants to keep Blood of the Dragon & Favored Son (Ameiko).
Also, a masterwork shield isn't viable for the 1st couple levels, so he's taking a -1 on his attacks whenever he wields a shield. Besides, in how many movies have you ever seen a ninja using a shield?? :)
Masterwork light shield is 153gp (wood)
By the time 2nd level arrives, he can save the gold.
/cevah
Ok, probably the last update:
* He finalized the single wakizashi, with plans to go TWF at 3rd level (he'll pick up the 2nd one at that time).
* Armor will be a haramaki - he likes the eastern-theme over padded armor. Will move into better armors as he levels, probably into studded leather 1st, and then eventually a mithral chain shirt.
* Ranged combat will focus on shuriken initially, but getting a short bow will be one of the 1st priorities. This was partly due to finances - he really wants to have some extra gold to pick up a couple fun alchemical items.
* Dodge has been swapped out for PBS, to help the shuriken attacks. Will also benefit when he does get the short bow.
Thanks to everyone for all the suggestions/advice!
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* He was doing some research while I was at work, and saw the Additional Traits feat. He's considering it if he goes with the studded leather, so he can take Armor Master to eliminate the ACP on the studded leather (that would also eliminate the need for mithral on a chain shirt, should he want to go that route later) - he could also pick up Crowd Dodger for the bonuses to moving through an occupied space/leaving a threatened square. He wants to keep Blood of the Dragon & Favored Son (Ameiko).
He'd still want to go mithril chain shirt eventually for the extra AC. As a dex ninja - there's little doubt he'll eventually have more than +4 to his dex. Or he could get mithril Kikko armor - it has no ACP, so he can wear it without proficiency. The reason for a rogue/ninja to grab Armor Expert is to wear a mithril breastplate without penalty.
EDIT: If I were the GM, I'd allow the PC to trade out Poison use for Magical Trap disarming, straight up. One is going to be a useless ability, the other is situationally useful and both are around the same power level. I wouldn't give them the scaling bonus to Perception and Disable Device that Rogues get, but it makes for a better party member to my mind.
Forgot to mention that I discussed this with him - he was initially interested in poison use until I explained how quickly it becomes useless. At that point, he decided to switch out for Disarm Magic Traps.