There actually is a weird force at work in settings governed by the Pathfinder RPG rules that completely eliminates the momentum of every flying creature at every 6 second interval, as if they slam into just such an imaginary wall. So, there is precedent, and lacking a definite answer in the text of the jumping rules, one might extend this absurdity to the concept of jumping, in order to at least achieve some kind of bizarre consistency.I'm with DungeonmasterCal, with the caveat that running out of movement could cause you to fall.That's another FAQ candidate. Running out of movement doesn't cause you to fail - it just means you're going to be using the first part of next round's movement to complete the jump. You don't slam into an imaginary wall and stop moving at the end of your turn, any more than you fail to cast a one-round spell if you start it with a standard action at the end of your turn.
Want to provide a citation to support that position?
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Okay. It's been a few hours. Let me give this one more shot.
Assume "Bob" has an ability where he's always counted as having a running start for jump checks. His speed is 30ft. His actual Acrobatics bonus is irrelevant.
Bob wants to see just how far he can jump by rolling his d20. No DC. Purely just for fun. No obstacles. He's in a flat field. After he lands, he stays put. No variables whatsoever.
Bob rolls a total of (20) for his Acrobatics check.
Want to provide a citation to support that position?There actually is a weird force at work in settings governed by the Pathfinder RPG rules that completely eliminates the momentum of every flying creature at every 6 second interval, as if they slam into just such an imaginary wall. So, there is precedent, and lacking a definite answer in the text of the jumping rules, one might extend this absurdity to the concept of jumping, in order to at least achieve some kind of bizarre consistency.I'm with DungeonmasterCal, with the caveat that running out of movement could cause you to fall.That's another FAQ candidate. Running out of movement doesn't cause you to fail - it just means you're going to be using the first part of next round's movement to complete the jump. You don't slam into an imaginary wall and stop moving at the end of your turn, any more than you fail to cast a one-round spell if you start it with a standard action at the end of your turn.
Fly skill: "At the beginning of the next turn, you can move in a different direction than you did the previous turn without making a check."
The bigger dragons can fly 113 miles an hour, and despite being noted as 'clumsy' flyers, they can stop on a dime (in mid-air) every 6 seconds, do an instant 180 and reverse. Maneuverability only applies to what you can do within timespans of 6 seconds, and every 6 seconds everything is reset. Flying rules are weird that way.
Okay. It's been a few hours. Let me give this one more shot.
Assume "Bob" has an ability where he's always counted as having a running start for jump checks. His speed is 30ft. His actual Acrobatics bonus is irrelevant.
Bob wants to see just how far he can jump by rolling his d20. No DC. Purely just for fun. No obstacles. He's in a flat field. After he lands, he stays put. No variables whatsoever.
Bob rolls a total of (20) for his Acrobatics check.
There will be 20' between the place his toes leave the ground where he jumps and the place his heels hit the ground where he lands. Hard to call the number of squares without information regarding the angle of his jump with regard to grid. He will probably need to use some extra, non-jumping movement to realign himself to the grid. He might well have moved 4 squares by just jumping.
Okay. It's been a few hours. Let me give this one more shot.
Assume "Bob" has an ability where he's always counted as having a running start for jump checks. His speed is 30ft. His actual Acrobatics bonus is irrelevant.
Bob wants to see just how far he can jump by rolling his d20. No DC. Purely just for fun. No obstacles. He's in a flat field. After he lands, he stays put. No variables whatsoever.
Bob rolls a total of (20) for his Acrobatics check.
With a running start, the long jump moves Bob 4 squares, leaving him on the far edge of the last square.
Without a running start, the standing jump moves Bob 2 squares, leaving him on the far edge of the last square.
The 20ft. chasm is not exactly 20ft. across. It's either slightly more or slightly less. If it's less, the DC 20 will clear it. If it's more, a DC 21 will be required. It's really that simple. I see no justification for requiring that you clear the jump by a full square.
Okay. It's been a few hours. Let me give this one more shot.
Assume "Bob" has an ability where he's always counted as having a running start for jump checks. His speed is 30ft. His actual Acrobatics bonus is irrelevant.
Bob wants to see just how far he can jump by rolling his d20. No DC. Purely just for fun. No obstacles. He's in a flat field. After he lands, he stays put. No variables whatsoever.
Bob rolls a total of (20) for his Acrobatics check.
4.
How many did he move if he rolls a 17?
Okay. It's been a few hours. Let me give this one more shot.
Assume "Bob" has an ability where he's always counted as having a running start for jump checks. His speed is 30ft. His actual Acrobatics bonus is irrelevant.
Bob wants to see just how far he can jump by rolling his d20. No DC. Purely just for fun. No obstacles. He's in a flat field. After he lands, he stays put. No variables whatsoever.
Bob rolls a total of (20) for his Acrobatics check.
Bob's artificially stunted jump moves him 4 squares. This is why we've been calling it "center to center" repeatedly throughout this and the other thread.
As I mentioned last page, the Special Movement Rules determine the type of movement required based on the square as you enter it. This refutes the "center to center" movement model that you've been espousing.
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I've been saying the same thing this whole time, I've apparently just been wording it poorly, and have been unable to express exactly what my points were.
Three people above agreed the total movement would be 4 squares.
How many squares are in between Bob's starting point and his landing point?
3.
How much distance is that?
15ft.
If Bob's flat field had been an illusion, covering up a 15ft pit, he'd be fine. He jumped 20 ft.
If Bob's flat field had been an illusion, covering up a 20ft pit, he'd fall short of clearing it by 5ft.
Thank you, everybody.
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Nefreet - nobody is arguing that Bob doesn't have a total movement of 20' in the example you give of clearing a 15' wide pit.
The mistake you make is that you seem to think that because Bob moves 20', the DC is 20. It isn't - the DC is 15, because that's the width of the pit.
A reductio ad absurdum argument - consider a narrow crack, under 1' wide. You need 5' of movement in order to jump across this crack. But that doesn't mean it's a DC 5 acrobatics check.
This refutes the "center to center" movement model that you've been espousing.Please do not put words in my mouth.
This is now the 3rd time I've stated that I disagree with such a model/view/belief.
You say that, but your interpretation of the rules disagrees with what you're saying.
If you believe that you must jump 15' to clear a 10' pit, you're advocating "center to center."
I've been saying the same thing this whole time, I've apparently just been wording it poorly, and have been unable to express exactly what my points were.
Three people above agreed the total movement would be 4 squares.
How many squares are in between Bob's starting point and his landing point?
3.
How much distance is that?
15ft.
If Bob's flat field had been an illusion, covering up a 15ft pit, he'd be fine. He jumped 20 ft.
If Bob's flat field had been an illusion, covering up a 20ft pit, he'd fall short of clearing it by 5ft.
Thank you, everybody.
Your example is not a reflection of a typical case where a character would be attempting to make a running jump. It is a straw man, plain and simple. Of course Bob falls down if it's a 20' pit. He was attempting to move exclusively by jumping and had no reason to believe that there was a pit there. Also, I hope he made his will save the second time around.
If Bob knew that there was a 20' pit there and had available movement left, he could make the jump because the next square is terrain he can walk on, so entering it is standard movement, not a jump distance.
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Nefreet - nobody is arguing that Bob doesn't have a total movement of 20' in the example you give of clearing a 15' wide pit.
The mistake you make is that you seem to think that because Bob moves 20', the DC is 20. It isn't - the DC is 15, because that's the width of the pit.
Refute the scenario I just laid out.
A reductio ad absurdum argument - consider a narrow crack, under 1' wide. You need 5' of movement in order to jump across this crack. But that doesn't mean it's a DC 5 acrobatics check.
Indeed. Jumping a trip wire separating two 5ft squares would indeed be a DC 5 Acrobatics check. I even stated this earlier in the thread.
Bob's artificially stunted jump moves him 4 squares.With a running start, the long jump moves Bob 4 squares4.Thank you.
I 100% agree.
I am not going insane after all.
I answered your question. Why don't you answer mine? How many squares did he move if he rolled a 17?
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This refutes the "center to center" movement model that you've been espousing.Please do not put words in my mouth.
This is now the 3rd time I've stated that I disagree with such a model/view/belief.
You say that, but your interpretation of the rules disagrees with what you're saying.
If you believe that you must jump 15' to clear a 10' pit, you're advocating "center to center."
Nope. Square to square. If it makes you sleep better to put me in some sort of box, go ahead, but quit putting words in my mouth.
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If Bob's flat field had been an illusion, covering up a 20ft pit, he'd fall short of clearing it by 5ft.And if he makes his Will save to realize that isn't solid ground, he could continue moving forward to the 25ft point and be fine thanks to making the DC.
He rolled a 20. He moved 20ft. Distance = DC. Knowing about the pit is irrelevant. He moved 20ft. 4 squares. 4 squares, total. Not enough to jump over a 20ft (4 square) pit. End of story.
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He rolled a 20. He moved 20ft. Distance = DC. Knowing about the pit is irrelevant. He moved 20ft. 4 squares. 4 squares, total. Not enough to jump over a 20ft (4 square) pit. End of story.If Bob's flat field had been an illusion, covering up a 20ft pit, he'd fall short of clearing it by 5ft.And if he makes his Will save to realize that isn't solid ground, he could continue moving forward to the 25ft point and be fine thanks to making the DC.
He jumped 20ft, enough to clear the 20ft pit, and kept moving into the 5th square.
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Posting this again to see if anyone will read it this time.
If you move is 30ft, and you move 10ft before the pit, 10ft across the pit, and 10ft after the pit, you moved 30ft with the caveat that 10ft of that movement required a DC 10 Acrobatics roll.
If you move is 30ft, and you move 10ft before the pit, 10ft of which 7ft is across the pit, and 10ft after the pit, you moved 30ft with the caveat that 7ft of that movement required a DC 7 Acrobatics roll.
There, no advanced physics degree required
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He jumped 20ft, enough to clear the 20ft pit, and kept moving into the 5th square.He rolled a 20. He moved 20ft. Distance = DC. Knowing about the pit is irrelevant. He moved 20ft. 4 squares. 4 squares, total. Not enough to jump over a 20ft (4 square) pit. End of story.If Bob's flat field had been an illusion, covering up a 20ft pit, he'd fall short of clearing it by 5ft.And if he makes his Will save to realize that isn't solid ground, he could continue moving forward to the 25ft point and be fine thanks to making the DC.
That would require a 25ft jump, which Bob did not succeed at.
Nefreet: since people answered your scenario, you should at least do the courtesy of responding to theirs.
Here is mine:
I'm moving 30' and jumping a 10' pit during my move.
What is my DC? 10, 15, or 30? Does it matter if the pit is aligned with the grid or not?
I answered yours. Look up and see if you agree with an Occam's Razor approach of putting it in its simplest terms.
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Want to provide a citation to support that position?There actually is a weird force at work in settings governed by the Pathfinder RPG rules that completely eliminates the momentum of every flying creature at every 6 second interval, as if they slam into just such an imaginary wall. So, there is precedent, and lacking a definite answer in the text of the jumping rules, one might extend this absurdity to the concept of jumping, in order to at least achieve some kind of bizarre consistency.I'm with DungeonmasterCal, with the caveat that running out of movement could cause you to fall.That's another FAQ candidate. Running out of movement doesn't cause you to fail - it just means you're going to be using the first part of next round's movement to complete the jump. You don't slam into an imaginary wall and stop moving at the end of your turn, any more than you fail to cast a one-round spell if you start it with a standard action at the end of your turn.
Sure.
Actually, it is every 3 seconds. While flying, in order to turn 180 degrees, you must make a fairly steep fly check and an extra movement cost. However, at the end of your move, even if you end the move in mid air, you can freely turn 180 degrees and go back the way you came with no extra movement cost and no fly check. In other words at the end of each move action, your momentum is completely canceled, and can be regained going in whatever direction you want.
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Nefreet: since people answered your scenario, you should at least do the courtesy of responding to theirs.
Here is mine:
I'm moving 30' and jumping a 10' pit during my move.
What is my DC? 10, 15, or 30?
I would think the answer would be obvious.
The DC would be 15.
That DC 15 equates to a distance of 15ft, which includes the 10ft pit and the 5ft square that's being landed in.
Distance = DC
That would require a 25ft jump, which Bob did not succeed at.He jumped 20ft, enough to clear the 20ft pit, and kept moving into the 5th square.He rolled a 20. He moved 20ft. Distance = DC. Knowing about the pit is irrelevant. He moved 20ft. 4 squares. 4 squares, total. Not enough to jump over a 20ft (4 square) pit. End of story.If Bob's flat field had been an illusion, covering up a 20ft pit, he'd fall short of clearing it by 5ft.And if he makes his Will save to realize that isn't solid ground, he could continue moving forward to the 25ft point and be fine thanks to making the DC.
It's just like difficult terrain. Entering the square is 10' if the square is difficult terrain, or 15' if entered on a diagonal. In your example with the 20' pit, you enter 4 pit squares and exit on normal terrain. 20ft jump, 5ft walk.
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To the people that still disagree with me, even though we all agree Bob jumped 20ft by getting a 20 on his Acrobatics check, please refute this drawing before continuing your debate:
Here, in ASCII, is what Bob's original DC 20 Acrobatics check, and his 20ft (4 squares) jump looks like:
[B][X][X][X][L]
[B][P][P][P][P]
To the people that still disagree with me, even though we all agree Bob jumped 20ft by getting a 20 on his Acrobatics check, please refute this drawing before continuing your debate:
Here, in ASCII, is what Bob's original DC 20 Acrobatics check, and his 20ft (4 squares) jump looks like:
[B][X][X][X][L]
[B][P][P][P][P]
I did refute it. It's a straw man.
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That would require a 25ft jump, which Bob did not succeed at.There is no requirement to jump over the last 5 feet, as that is solid ground and does not require an acrobatics check to clear. The DC is 20.
So, are you of the opinion that Bob's Acrobatics check of 20 moved him 4 squares? Or 5?
The answer should not differ depending on his awareness of the pit.
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To the people that still disagree with me, even though we all agree Bob jumped 20ft by getting a 20 on his Acrobatics check, please refute this drawing before continuing your debate:
Here, in ASCII, is what Bob's original DC 20 Acrobatics check, and his 20ft (4 squares) jump looks like:
[B][X][X][X][L]
[B][P][P][P][P]
[B][X][X][X][X][L]
Bob jumps 20ft and ends up here after 25ft of movement. This is a DC20 jump, as he crosses 20ff before taking that 5ft step.
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I did refute it. It's a straw man.To the people that still disagree with me, even though we all agree Bob jumped 20ft by getting a 20 on his Acrobatics check, please refute this drawing before continuing your debate:
Here, in ASCII, is what Bob's original DC 20 Acrobatics check, and his 20ft (4 squares) jump looks like:
[B][X][X][X][L]
[B][P][P][P][P]
I don't think you know what that term means.
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To the people that still disagree with me, even though we all agree Bob jumped 20ft by getting a 20 on his Acrobatics check, please refute this drawing before continuing your debate:
Here, in ASCII, is what Bob's original DC 20 Acrobatics check, and his 20ft (4 squares) jump looks like:
[B][X][X][X][L]
[B][P][P][P][P][B][X][X][X][X][L]
Bob jumps 20ft and ends up here after 25ft of movement. This is a DC20 jump, as he crosses 20ff before taking that 5ft step.
So, you're of the opinion that Bob jumped 25ft with his Acrobatics check of 20?
That doesn't strike you as odd?
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The rules don't consider where exactly your feet are at the moment of jumping, nor at the moment of landing. Characters are not immutable vertically straight blocks that occupy 5'x5' areas. Bodies contort while jumping and a jumper's feet can be at varying positions in relation to his center of gravity at any moment before, during and after the jump.
None of that matters. The jumping rules are an abstraction and the grid is just an abstraction. The rules just require you to roll an Acrobatics check of x to clear a pit x feet wide.
It's so simple and intuitive, it boggles the mind why people question this.
.... i thought this died and everyone went home. WTH brought this back to life?
The rules don't consider where exactly your feet are at the moment of jumping, nor at the moment of landing. Characters are not immutable vertically straight blocks that occupy 5'x5' areas. Bodies contort while jumping and a jumper's feet can be at varying positions in relation to his center of gravity at any moment before, during and after the jump.
None of that matters. The jumping rules are an abstraction and the grid is just an abstraction. The rules just require you to roll an Acrobatics check of x to clear a pit x feet wide.
It's so simple and intuitive, it boggles the mind why people question this.
+1 that's what I tried to point out too