still what is the DC for a centaur to jump a 15ft pit that falls on gridlines.Answered up thread.
weird since a DC of 20 would leave them hanging off the edge...
Nefree, If you're only using acrobatics to move with a jump then yes, the jump moves you four squares. If you're using acrobatics while you're moving you can jump over four squares, 20ft with a 20 and you'll end in the fifth square. Everyone but you agrees with this. Jumping to move and jumping over something while you move are different things.He moves 10 feet. Jumps over a 20 foot pit. Moves 30 feet. Thwacks the bad guy.
Does he have to make a DC 60 jump check because he moved 60 feet?
Clearly not. That would be silly.
If not, distance you move and distance you clear aren't the same thing.Not your total movement for the round, your total movement for the jump.When am I "jumping?" more than 20 feet?
Squares 1 and 2 i'm walking . Squares 3 4 5 6 I'm jumping Square 7 i'm solid ground so I'm walking on it. If you insist on the abstraction of squares you cannot simultaneously insist that i take off or land in a square.
You're double billing for a square. If you insist that I have to jump from square 6 and into 7 then you've established that the square I've moved out of is the one that counts as jumping or not. If thats the case then moving from square 2 to square 3 only counts as walking
If you insist that I have to jump from square 2 into square three, then its the square I'm entering that counts as jumping , so entering square 7 isn't jumping.
This was answered through my informal poll earlier.
I asked how far one jumps if they get a 20 on their Acrobatics check.
Everyone answered "4 squares away".
The fourth square is where you land.
That square must be something you can land on.
If it's not, you fall into the pit.
I also explained this up thread, and nobody was able to refute it.
Olympians A and B have a jumping contest.
Olympian...
They can move the remaining 5ft normally. They do not need to jump the same distance.
Nefreet, here's where I see your logic not working.
I jump straight over a 5ft pit, I've jumped 10 feet, DC 10 (always running start for everything). Okay, makes sense so far.
I jump diagonally over a 5ft pit (lets assume it's circular), I've jumped 15 feet across. You say still DC 10, and that ruling it is 15 would be against the don't be a jerk rule.
If the DC is always the distance jumped this should be 15.
It feels like your're looking at one case (straight jump from one square to another) deciding that is the proper jump DC for all jumps and then applying that logic to all other jumps no matter how they are positioned.
Like the example where I'm standing on a 2 ft ledge, and there is a 6ft pit, followed by another 2 ft ledge. If we go by distance traveled , I've had to cross 6 feet of pit, and then 2 more feet on the other side, so DC 8? or 5 or 10 or 11? (This is the example where I am least clear on your position)
You've responded several times to this last question that DC = Distance. I still don't understand which number you would choose.
I also explained this up thread, and nobody was able to refute it.
Olympians A and B have a jumping contest.
Olympian A gets a 20 on their Acrobatics check, and lands 4 squares away.
Olympian B has a 15ft pit dug, and gets a 15 on their Acrobatics check to jump over it, landing in the same square as Olympian A.
Does that make any sense to anyone?
No, of course not. Ergo, Olympian B's Acrobatics check fails to jump over the pit.
Umm... I'm pretty sure I referenced this Olympian pit example multiple times. Refuting your interpretation of it. But I'll do it again.
Olympian A gets a 20 and jumps the entire 4 square of movement for a 20ft jump. Ending 4 squares away.Olympian B gets a 15 and jumps 15ft over the pit, then continues his movement into the fourth square ENDING in the same square. His movement is 15ft of jumping and 5ft of other movement.
Or To explain is as someone said above, you figure the movement needed to ENTER a square and that's the movement used to get there. Thus to enter the square over a pit you'd need to be in the air from a jump, to enter the landing square is normal movement, thus you use that to enter the square.
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A medium creature would need a DC 25 to jump a 20 ft chasm.
A DC 25 to travel 25ft of distance, yes.
A large creature would need a DC 30 to jump a 20 ft chasm.
A huge creature would need a DC 35 to jump a 20 ft chasm.
The answers to those examples would align with distance traveled, yes, assuming a Large+ creature needed to land in all of its squares.
Of that requirement, I am not sure. Large creatures can squeeze in a 5ft space, and Huge creatures can squeeze in 10ft. I am unsure how that would impact their ability to land a jump.
But that's a separate question being asked, and has no relevance to the one we're discussing here. It also involves the question of how small of a pit a creature can simply walk over. If a Human walks over a square with a 1ft pit, I don't think anyone would require an Acrobatics check to avoid it. Same goes for a Huge creature walking over a 5ft pit.
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Olympians A and B have a jumping contest.
Olympian A gets a 20 on their Acrobatics check, and lands 4 squares away.
Olympian B has a 15ft pit dug, and gets a 15 on their Acrobatics check to jump over it, landing in the same square as Olympian A.
Does that make any sense to anyone?
No, of course not. Ergo, Olympian B's Acrobatics check fails to jump over the pit.
Plenty of people refuted it. No one refuted it to your satisfaction.
Distance moved is not equal to distance jumped.A covers 20' with his jump leaving the ground slightly before the pit and landing well beyond it but still in the next square. He moved a total of 20'.
B covers 15' with his jump, leaving the ground at the edge of the pit and landing just past the lip of the pit, stepping into the next square. He also moved a total of 20'.
(Both of them also needed 10' of space to get a running start, so they used a total of 30' of movement.)
You're changing the variables.
A and B have the same starting point. Leave "edges", "centers" and "middles" out of this.
A's check gets them 4 squares away.
B's check gets them 4 squares away, but only when a pit is placed there.
How does that make sense?
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Olympians A and B have a jumping contest.
Olympian...
I have answered this.
They both end up in the same square. I have no problem with this.
Olympian A is marked 20ft from the line he jumped from and Olympian B is marked 15ft from the line he jumped from.
The only issue is they aren't jumping from the same spot on the grid.
Olympian A is jumping from the middle of square 0 to the middle of square 4. He has jumped 20 feet and used 20 feet of movement.
Olympian B is jumping from the edge of square 0, the the beginning of square 4. He has jumped 15 feet and used 20 feet of movement.
If we take Olympian A, and line up his grid with Olympian B, he now jumps 20 feet landing at the beginning of square 5. He has jumped 20 feet and moved 25.
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When we muck with the grid, we muck with exactly how much movement it takes to get to certain squares. It should not effect the distance for the jumping DC.
A medium creature would need a DC 25 to jump a 20 ft chasm.A DC 25 to travel 25ft of distance, yes.
A large creature would need a DC 30 to jump a 20 ft chasm.
A huge creature would need a DC 35 to jump a 20 ft chasm.The answers to those examples would align with distance traveled, yes, assuming a Large+ creature needed to land in all of its squares.
Of that requirement, I am not sure. Large creatures can squeeze in a 5ft space, and Huge creatures can squeeze in 10ft. I am unsure how that would impact their ability to land a jump.
But that's a separate question being asked, and has no relevance to the one we're discussing here. It also involves the question of how small of a pit a creature can simply walk over. If a Human walks over a square with a 1ft pit, I don't think anyone would require an Acrobatics check to avoid it. Same goes for a Huge creature walking over a 5ft pit.
it's almost like Occam's razor really wants it to just be how much distance needs to be spent in the air or the distance across the pit.
Olympians A and B have a jumping contest.
Olympian A gets a 20 on their Acrobatics check, and lands 4 squares away.
Olympian B has a 15ft pit dug, and gets a 15 on their Acrobatics check to jump over it, landing in the same square as Olympian A.
Does that make any sense to anyone?
No, of course not. Ergo, Olympian B's Acrobatics check fails to jump over the pit.
Plenty of people refuted it. No one refuted it to your satisfaction.
Distance moved is not equal to distance jumped.A covers 20' with his jump leaving the ground slightly before the pit and landing well beyond it but still in the next square. He moved a total of 20'.
B covers 15' with his jump, leaving the ground at the edge of the pit and landing just past the lip of the pit, stepping into the next square. He also moved a total of 20'.
(Both of them also needed 10' of space to get a running start, so they used a total of 30' of movement.)
You're changing the variables.
A and B have the same starting point. Leave "edges", "centers" and "middles" out of this.
A's check gets them 4 squares away.
B's check gets them 4 squares away, but only when a pit is placed there.How does that make sense?
B got across and then walked the rest of the way.
his was answered through my informal poll earlier.
I asked how far one jumps if they get a 20 on their Acrobatics check.
Everyone answered "4 squares away".
Everyone answered you JUMP 4 but you MOVE 5. Just like my swashbuckler is jumping 4 squares but moving 12.
Between this, the impossibility of a 5 foot jump, and the developer repeatedly putting the DC at 10 not 15 I think its time to give up on this one.
A and B have the same starting point. Leave "edges", "centers" and "middles" out of this.A's check gets them 4 squares away.
B's check gets them 4 squares away, but only when a pit is placed there.How does that make sense?
Let put the pit half way in the starting square and halfway in the ending square to better represent jumping from the edge of the pit.
A gets 4 squares and clears the pit.
B gets 3 squares and also clears the pit.
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I jump straight over a 5ft pit, I've jumped 10 feet, DC 10 (always running start for everything). Okay, makes sense so far.
I jump diagonally over a 5ft pit (lets assume it's circular), I've jumped 15 feet across. You say still DC 10, and that ruling it is 15 would be against the don't be a jerk rule.
If the DC is always the distance jumped this should be 15.
It feels like your're looking at one case (straight jump from one square to another) deciding that is the proper jump DC for all jumps and then applying that logic to all other jumps no matter how they are positioned.
I also stated I would not fault a GM if they were to rule that the jump DC was 15, because in combat, on a grid, that is the movement required.
I'm simply not of the mindset to punish players because the abstraction of the grid got in the way. But don't think that's a hole in my logic. That's just me trying to be nice.
I'm standing on a 2 ft ledge, and there is a 6ft pit, followed by another 2 ft ledge. If we go by distance traveled , I've had to cross 6 feet of pit, and then 2 more feet on the other side, so DC 8? or 5 or 10 or 11? (This is the example where I am least clear on your position)
You've responded several times to this last question that DC = Distance. I still don't understand which number you would choose.
If we're going by the 1ft paradigm, which we'd pretty much have to for this example, the DC would be 7. SKR said as much in two of his comments quoted earlier. That's the minimum distance traveled to clear the pit.
Using the 5ft paradigm, the DC would be 11.
Those are two of the answers up for FAQ in the very first post of this thread (the other being DC 6).
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it's almost like Occam's razor really wants it to just be how much distance needs to be spent in the air or the distance across the pit.A medium creature would need a DC 25 to jump a 20 ft chasm.A DC 25 to travel 25ft of distance, yes.
A large creature would need a DC 30 to jump a 20 ft chasm.
A huge creature would need a DC 35 to jump a 20 ft chasm.The answers to those examples would align with distance traveled, yes, assuming a Large+ creature needed to land in all of its squares.
Of that requirement, I am not sure. Large creatures can squeeze in a 5ft space, and Huge creatures can squeeze in 10ft. I am unsure how that would impact their ability to land a jump.
But that's a separate question being asked, and has no relevance to the one we're discussing here. It also involves the question of how small of a pit a creature can simply walk over. If a Human walks over a square with a 1ft pit, I don't think anyone would require an Acrobatics check to avoid it. Same goes for a Huge creature walking over a 5ft pit.
Indeed.
Nefreet, he says a dc of 11 would make it. Not that a 10 wouldn't.
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Do you see anything wrong with the logic that it is harder for a larger creature to jump a chasm than a smaller creature?A medium creature would need a DC 25 to jump a 20 ft chasm.A DC 25 to travel 25ft of distance, yes.
A large creature would need a DC 30 to jump a 20 ft chasm.
A huge creature would need a DC 35 to jump a 20 ft chasm.The answers to those examples would align with distance traveled, yes, assuming a Large+ creature needed to land in all of its squares.
Assuming the larger creature needs more distance, no, I see nothing wrong with that.
But like I said, this may not be the case. The Large creature may be able to land in a 5ft square. That's a different question up for a different FAQ.
In fact, your questions support the "+1ft" answer that is up for FAQ in this thread, and supported by SKR, because the DC would not change regardless of creature size.
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Olympians A and B have a jumping contest.
Olympian A gets a 20 on their Acrobatics check, and lands 4 squares away.
Olympian B has a 15ft pit dug, and gets a 15 on their Acrobatics check to jump over it, landing in the same square as Olympian A.
Does that make any sense to anyone?
No, of course not. Ergo, Olympian B's Acrobatics check fails to jump over the pit.
Plenty of people refuted it. No one refuted it to your satisfaction.
Distance moved is not equal to distance jumped.A covers 20' with his jump leaving the ground slightly before the pit and landing well beyond it but still in the next square. He moved a total of 20'.
B covers 15' with his jump, leaving the ground at the edge of the pit and landing just past the lip of the pit, stepping into the next square. He also moved a total of 20'.
(Both of them also needed 10' of space to get a running start, so they used a total of 30' of movement.)
You're changing the variables.
A and B have the same starting point. Leave "edges", "centers" and "middles" out of this.
A's check gets them 4 squares away.
B's check gets them 4 squares away, but only when a pit is placed there.How does that make sense?
B can walk.
Edit: I don't expect you to accept this, since it's been said repeatedly. As I said, plenty of people have refuted this example. You just don't understand or accept what they're saying.
It makes perfect sense to me. I understand that it doesn't to you. I don't know how to explain it better. Repeating it won't help, I'm sure.
Answer me this: what square does B land in?
Answer that, with anything other than "floating above the pit".
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You don't round up or down, you simply determine which DC you met.
A 17ft jump meets the 15 DC.
You'd land 3 squares from your starting point.
If the pit you were trying to jump was 3 squares long, you'd fall in, assuming you failed your Reflex save to grab hold of the ledge.
So the PC lands in the 3rd square.
A 15ft pit extends through the 3rd square.
The PC has made the DC, and still falls in if he fails the Reflex save.
Still amused that this was never commented on.
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Somehow I expect you mean something different than what I would mean by that. 10' pit => distance across the pit 10' => distance spent in air 10' => DC 10.Indeed.it's almost like Occam's razor really wants it to just be how much distance needs to be spent in the air or the distance across the pit.A medium creature would need a DC 25 to jump a 20 ft chasm.A DC 25 to travel 25ft of distance, yes.
A large creature would need a DC 30 to jump a 20 ft chasm.
A huge creature would need a DC 35 to jump a 20 ft chasm.The answers to those examples would align with distance traveled, yes, assuming a Large+ creature needed to land in all of its squares.
Of that requirement, I am not sure. Large creatures can squeeze in a 5ft space, and Huge creatures can squeeze in 10ft. I am unsure how that would impact their ability to land a jump.
But that's a separate question being asked, and has no relevance to the one we're discussing here. It also involves the question of how small of a pit a creature can simply walk over. If a Human walks over a square with a 1ft pit, I don't think anyone would require an Acrobatics check to avoid it. Same goes for a Huge creature walking over a 5ft pit.
I've mentioned this many times, but I'll repeat myself again.
I believe, just as much as you believe, that my position is "simple and straightforward", "common sense", "Occam's Razor", whatever analogy you want to use.
It's how I've been doing it for years, across game systems. To make up "floating in midair" answers breaks my understanding of physics both in-game and IRL. To follow the logic people are proposing here requires rules that are unintuitive. I look at a map, count squares, and move that much.
When people keep posting "ack, I can't believe this thread is still going", I completely agree with them. When people ask, "Isn't this common sense?", my answer is "Yes".
We're both of the same belief that our own method is correct, and for the same reasons.
An FAQ, at this point, is probably all that will settle the answer.
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To jump 1 square into a 20 foot pit the dc is ZERO.
To jump 2 squares into a 20 foot pit the dc is 5
To jump 3 squares into a 20 foot put the dc is 10
To jump 4 squares into a 20 foot pit the dc is 15
To jump 5 squares into a 20 foot pit the dc is 20
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Still amused that this was never commented on.You don't round up or down, you simply determine which DC you met.
A 17ft jump meets the 15 DC.
You'd land 3 squares from your starting point.
If the pit you were trying to jump was 3 squares long, you'd fall in, assuming you failed your Reflex save to grab hold of the ledge.
So the PC lands in the 3rd square.
A 15ft pit extends through the 3rd square.
The PC has made the DC, and still falls in if he fails the Reflex save.
Have you started agreeing with me?
"floating in midair" is possible in this game. So that is "common sense."
I have been waiting for the "common sense" argument to come in and raise it head here.
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Hey guys, we are up to 525 posts, and we have under 50 FAQ requests. We need more people to FAQ this so we can get an answer once and for all.
Also, for the record, I agree with Nefreet on this, I just don't have time to keep up with the thread and he's doing a fine job making my arguements for me, so I am doing other things.
It is clear from the number of previous threads that plenty of other people disagree on this, so can we please work on getting it FAQed rather than wasting our time with an arguement that is not going to change anyones mind?
Indeed.it's almost like Occam's razor really wants it to just be how much distance needs to be spent in the air or the distance across the pit.A medium creature would need a DC 25 to jump a 20 ft chasm.A DC 25 to travel 25ft of distance, yes.
A large creature would need a DC 30 to jump a 20 ft chasm.
A huge creature would need a DC 35 to jump a 20 ft chasm.The answers to those examples would align with distance traveled, yes, assuming a Large+ creature needed to land in all of its squares.
Of that requirement, I am not sure. Large creatures can squeeze in a 5ft space, and Huge creatures can squeeze in 10ft. I am unsure how that would impact their ability to land a jump.
But that's a separate question being asked, and has no relevance to the one we're discussing here. It also involves the question of how small of a pit a creature can simply walk over. If a Human walks over a square with a 1ft pit, I don't think anyone would require an Acrobatics check to avoid it. Same goes for a Huge creature walking over a 5ft pit.
so then you agree that size should have no impact on DC for the same size pit?
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so then you agree that size should have no impact on DC for the same size pit?Indeed.it's almost like Occam's razor really wants it to just be how much distance needs to be spent in the air or the distance across the pit.A medium creature would need a DC 25 to jump a 20 ft chasm.A DC 25 to travel 25ft of distance, yes.
A large creature would need a DC 30 to jump a 20 ft chasm.
A huge creature would need a DC 35 to jump a 20 ft chasm.The answers to those examples would align with distance traveled, yes, assuming a Large+ creature needed to land in all of its squares.
Of that requirement, I am not sure. Large creatures can squeeze in a 5ft space, and Huge creatures can squeeze in 10ft. I am unsure how that would impact their ability to land a jump.
But that's a separate question being asked, and has no relevance to the one we're discussing here. It also involves the question of how small of a pit a creature can simply walk over. If a Human walks over a square with a 1ft pit, I don't think anyone would require an Acrobatics check to avoid it. Same goes for a Huge creature walking over a 5ft pit.
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I'm not following you.
The PC has made the DC, and still falls in if he fails the Reflex save.
If you fail this check by 4 or less, you can attempt a DC 20 Reflex save to grab hold of the other side after having missed the jump.
You agreed with the statement that the PC passed the check, but still fell in.
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In fact, your questions support the "+1ft" answer that is up for FAQ in this thread, and supported by SKR, because the DC would not change regardless of creature size.For that +1 ft question...
Do people measure the distance jumped from the front of the toe to the landing heel (like the Olympics)? Or do people measure from front of the toe to the front of the landing toe?
"Square to square", just like every other movement method in Pathfinder.
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I'm not following you.The PC has made the DC, and still falls in if he fails the Reflex save.
If you fail this check by 4 or less, you can attempt a DC 20 Reflex save to grab hold of the other side after having missed the jump.You agreed with the statement that the PC passed the check, but still fell in.
Obviously if they made the Reflex save, they'd be clinging to the ledge.
It would actually support what I've been saying.so then you agree that size should have no impact on DC for the same size pit?Indeed.it's almost like Occam's razor really wants it to just be how much distance needs to be spent in the air or the distance across the pit.A medium creature would need a DC 25 to jump a 20 ft chasm.A DC 25 to travel 25ft of distance, yes.
A large creature would need a DC 30 to jump a 20 ft chasm.
A huge creature would need a DC 35 to jump a 20 ft chasm.The answers to those examples would align with distance traveled, yes, assuming a Large+ creature needed to land in all of its squares.
Of that requirement, I am not sure. Large creatures can squeeze in a 5ft space, and Huge creatures can squeeze in 10ft. I am unsure how that would impact their ability to land a jump.
But that's a separate question being asked, and has no relevance to the one we're discussing here. It also involves the question of how small of a pit a creature can simply walk over. If a Human walks over a square with a 1ft pit, I don't think anyone would require an Acrobatics check to avoid it. Same goes for a Huge creature walking over a 5ft pit.
that a large creature needs to jump an extra 5 feet over a medium creature? I've been talking about the pit being 15 feet across, landing on 5ft aside it the issue with the DC 15 crowd, since you don't "land" in any square. you simply succeed at jumping across as per the DC.
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Olympians A and B have a jumping contest.
Olympian A gets a 20 on their Acrobatics check, and lands 4 squares away.
Olympian B has a 15ft pit dug, and gets a 15 on their Acrobatics check to jump over it, landing in the same square as Olympian A.
Does that make any sense to anyone?
No, of course not. Ergo, Olympian B's Acrobatics check fails to jump over the pit.
Plenty of people refuted it. No one refuted it to your satisfaction.
Distance moved is not equal to distance jumped.A covers 20' with his jump leaving the ground slightly before the pit and landing well beyond it but still in the next square. He moved a total of 20'.
B covers 15' with his jump, leaving the ground at the edge of the pit and landing just past the lip of the pit, stepping into the next square. He also moved a total of 20'.
(Both of them also needed 10' of space to get a running start, so they used a total of 30' of movement.)
You're changing the variables.
A and B have the same starting point. Leave "edges", "centers" and "middles" out of this.
A's check gets them 4 squares away.
B's check gets them 4 squares away, but only when a pit is placed there.How does that make sense?
If you're leaving "edges, centers, and middles" out of the answer. Why not leave out "squares?"
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Nefreet, he says a dc of 11 would make it. Not that a 10 wouldn't.Did he state that a DC of 10 would make it?
Because people keep posting as though he did.
Meanwhile, you keep stating that it requires an acrobatics roll of 15.
One of those positions is explicitly refuted by what SKR posted.
There are 3 answers being considered for FAQ (with regards to jumping over a 10ft pit):
- 10: The pit is 10 feet. I jump 10 feet. DC 10 I clear the pit.
- 11: The pit is 10 feet. To cross it I have to jump a greater distance than 10 feet. Therefore 11 feet must be jumped. DC 11 I clear the pit.
- 15: The pit is 10 feet. In order to cross the pit (2 squares wide) I must jump from my square to a square 3 squares away. 3 squares is 15 feet. Therefore 15 feet must be jumped. DC 15 I clear the pit.
SKR supports the second answer, "11", judging by the two posts we have on record.
If he clarifies (of this is answered in the FAQ) that he really meant "10", then this drawn out discussion can come to and end.
I'm leaning more towards the DC 11 answer myself, after all of these examples, but regardless whether the answer is "11" or "15" both of those answers involve total distance crossed.
"10" does not.
I don't like the DC 11 because it's convaluted. if you were halfway off the ledge and teleported forward 10 feet over the pit, you'd end up half way on the ledge on the other side, for anyone fighting the "Realistic" angle.
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With a dc of 5 to fall into a pit, its very easy to throw yourself at the ground, miss, and thus learn to fly.