Problem with an "arcane paladin" is the nature of Arcane Magic Vs Divine Magic.
Spell failure due to armor, spell lists, and spell purpose all come to mind. Spell purpose being the bigger thing.
How do you balance out the versatility and flair of Arcane Magic with the power of a full BAB without voiding most other classes?
Honestly, I think Bloodrager and Magus are as good as it's going to get.
Problem with an "arcane paladin" is the nature of Arcane Magic Vs Divine Magic.
Spell failure due to armor, spell lists, and spell purpose all come to mind. Spell purpose being the bigger thing.How do you balance out the versatility and flair of Arcane Magic with the power of a full BAB without voiding most other classes?
Honestly, I think Bloodrager and Magus are as good as it's going to get.
i like how i handled armor spell failure and versatility.
mine can only learn spells from 3 schools, which limits it a fair amount on a character basis but the class itself is still open to most options. they can spend a knack to start learning from a fourth school.
Spell failure is handled with Mantras which are spell you cast before you put your armor on for the day. you then hold this limited number of spells(int mod + highest spell level known) on top of your prepared spells, spells cast as a mantra have a lower spell failure rate and when they do still fail they are not lost but simply fail to take effect. spells that you prepared but are not mantra'd have normal spell failure rules.
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Half caster and full caster alchemists would be amazing.
I actually wrote a "full-caster alchemist" for Fat Goblin Games, check it out here: The Apothecary
and then for a "half-caster alchemist", you might want to look at the Volatile Pugilist or the Reveling Brewmaster or the Ambrose Knight or Sacred Illuminary, all of which are part of the Multiclass Archetypes project.
can't discuss the apothecary without know how you handle 9th level "casting" curious though, but not enough is described for me to buy it.
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Hi Bandw2! I hope the following will convince you that it's worth a buy:
So what I did was make a spell list for the Apothecary that goes up through 9th level that includes all the 7th-9th level spells that you'd expect would be extract-able. The apothecary also gains things called Concoctions that include many alchemist discoveries as well as some new, fun options like Bottled monsters, Contingent extract (which lets you drink an extract but have it lie dormant until you decide to use it with an Immediate action), Distill scroll (which lets you turn a scroll into a potion, and later even distill "potions" using scrolls of higher than level 3), Metamixes (metamatic for extracts), and Tonics (which are alchemical cantrips that can be sipped many times a day to gain their benefits)
Here is a sidebar on how I chose the spells to add to the list:
The spells shown here are by no means the only extracts that a GM might allow an apothecary in her or her game to use.
The apothecary drinks her extracts for spell effects, so any spell which goes on the apothecary list should either directly affect ONLY the person who drinks the extract, or should emanate in some way from the drinker. In general, most spells that are on the alchemist’s extract list should be avail- able to the apothecary. In addition, spells which have ray, cone, line or burst effects which originate from the apothecary should be included. Almost all Transmutation spells should be at least considered, and most Divination spells would also fit the apothecary’s concept. Very few Conjuration spells fit the apothecary’s spellcasting con- cept, as drinking an extract doesn’t feel like a reasonable way to summon creatures or items, with the exception of spells like vomit swarm.
And here's the actual extract list (copied directly from the PDF so excuse the formatting):
Apothecary extract list:
0 - detect magic, detect poison, disrupt undead, guidance, haunted
fey aspect, mage hand, ray of frost, read magic, resistance, touch
of fatigue
1st - acid splash, adhesive spittleACG, air bubbleUC, ant haulAPG,
anticipate perilUM, blurred movementACG, body capacitanceACG, burning hands, color spray, compel hostilityUC, comprehend lan- guages, crafter’s fortuneAPG, cure light wounds, detect secret doors, detect undead, disguise self, ear-piercing screamUM, endure ele- ments, enlarge person, expeditious retreat, heightened awarenes- sACG, identify, jump, keen sensesAPG, long armACG, mirror strikeUM, moment of greatnessUC, negate aromaAPG, obscuring mist, phan- tom bloodACG, protection from chaos/evil/good/law, ray of enfee- blement, ray of sickeningUM, reduce person, repair undeadACG, see alignmentUC, shield, shock shieldUC, stone fistAPG, technomancyTG, touch of the seaAPG, true strike, vanishAPG, ventriloquism, vocal alterationUM, youthful appearanceUM
2nd - acid arrow, acute sensesUM, adorationUC, aid, air stepACG, alchemical allocationAPG, alter self, animal aspectUC, barkskin, bear’s endurance, bestow weapon proficiencyUC, blood transcrip- tionUM, blur, bullet shieldUC, burning gazeAPG, cat’s grace, cure moderate wounds, cushioning bandsUM, darkvision, defensive shockUM, delay painUM, delay poison, detect thoughts, eagle’s splen- dor, elemental speechAPG, elemental touchAPG, extreme flexibility- ACG, false life, fire breathAPG, fox’s cunning, ghostly disguiseUM, glid- eAPG, heroic fortuneAPG, investigative mindACG, invisibility, kinetic reverbrationUC, lesser restoration, levitate, mirror image, owl’s wisdom, percieve cuesAPG, protection from arrows, protective pre- numbraUM, resist energy, scorching ray, skinsendUM, spider climb, see invisibility, sonic screamACG, spectral hand, vomit swarmAPG, whip of spidersACG
3rd - ablative barrierUC, arcane sight, aura sightACG, blink, blood biographyAPG, burrowUM, cure serious wounds, displacement, dis- tracting cacophanyUM, draconic reservoirAPG, elemental auraAPG, eruptive pustulesUM, fly, gaseous form, haste, heroism, invisibility sphere, lightning bolt, magic circle against chaos/evil/good/law, monstrous physique IUM, nondetection, pierce disguiseACG, protec- tion from energy, rage, ray of exhaustion, resinous skinUC, seek thoughtsAPG, silver dartsACG, tongues, touch injection, undead anatomy IUM
4th - adjustable polymorphACG, cure critical wounds, detonate, dimension door, dragon’s breath, elemental body I, enervation, eyes of the voidACG, fear, fire shield, greater animal aspectUC, greater darkvisionUM, greater false lifeUM, greater invisibility, lesser globe of invulnerability, monstrous physique IIUM, remove curse, shocking imageUC, shadow projectionAPG, shout, stoneskin,
5th - acidic sprayUM, animal growth, cone of cold, echolocationUM, elemental body II, fire snakeAPG, life bubbleAPG, monstrous phy- sique IIIUM, overland flight, planar adaptation, polymorph, spell absorption, undead anatomy IIUM, vampiric shadow shieldACG, waves of fatigue, whip of centipedesACG
6th - antimagic field, banshee blastACG, chain lightning, cold ice strikeUM, contagious flameAPG, disintegrate, elemental body III, fluid formAPG, form of the dragon I, globe of invulnerability, greater heroism, legend lore, monstrous physique IVUM, repul- sion, sonic formACG, transformation, true seeing, undead anatomy IIIUM, whip of antsACG
7th - caustic eruptionUM, elemental body IV, ethereal jaunt, form of the dragon II, giant form I, greater arcane sight, greater poly- morph, greater restoration, heal, ice bodyUM, ki shoutUM, power word blind, project image, regenerate simulacrum, resonating wordUM, spell turning, statue, waves of ecstasyUM
8th - clone, discern location, form of the dragon III, frightful aspectUC, giant form II, greater shout, greater spell absorptionISM, greater spell immunity, iron body, moment of prescience, polar ray, power word stun, protection from spells, seamantleAPG, stormboltsAPG, sunburstCRB, undead anatomy IVUM
9th - energy drain, fiery bodyAPG, heroic invocationUC, over- whelming presenceUM, power word kill, prismatic sphere, ride the lightningUM, shapechange, time stop, wail of the banshee, winds of vengeanceAPG
Bloodrager as an arcane paladin, really? I'd say a magus probably best fits "arcane paladin" if there is any class that fits. I really don't see a sorcery-laden barbarian to be anything like a paladin. Where did the OP get such as misdirected idea?
but the ranger is just the nature paladin.I think that the Bloodrager is already the arcane foil to the Paladin.
We need an arcane Ranger
Given archetypes, deific combat styles and special spells based on the deity, rangers seems the more "general purpose" full bab caster. Paladin is much more focused in being resistant and supportive, that is opposed by the raw capability of a bloodrager to wreck stuff.
Much like the contrast between Inquisitor e Bard that are paired much like Warpriest and Magus.
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Bloodrager as an arcane paladin, really? I'd say a magus probably best fits "arcane paladin" if there is any class that fits. I really don't see a sorcery-laden barbarian to be anything like a paladin. Where did the OP get such as misdirected idea?
I think the OP was talking more about the mechanics (spellcasting starts at 4th level, only spell levels 1-4, full martial proficiency and full BAB) than the class features, when he/she was talking about an "Arcane Paladin". As of now, the bloodrager fits that definition best of all as far as Paizo classes go.
For what it's worth, I've created a class I've been calling the Arcane Knight that's something like an arcane paladin or ranger of sorts. I've been considering doing a mini 'playtest' of the document on the forums, but haven't had time to devote to it. A few of the essentials.
Arcane Knight
- Full BAB
- Full Caster Level, due to interactions with Arcane Strike, but gains spellcasting at level 4, progresses to level 4 spells.
- Spellcasting is restricted almost entirely to buffing/non-offensive spells, such as haste, lead blades, darkness, and similar spells.
- Can cast spells in medium armor, but has abilities that allow them to cast in heavier armor.
- Can self-enhance armor and weapons temporarily.I've also built a Noble class based on the chassis of the Aristocrat which is extremely customizable, and a Priest class that's a full caster, unarmored and far more divinely based version of the cleric.
If there's interest, I might decide to do the playtest sooner than later.
that sounds remarkably similar to the bloodrager:
-full bab: check
-full CL, gains casting at 4th, maxes at level 4 spells: check
-gets a free level <2 spell on rage eventually, great buff spells (and its offensive spells are trash compared to just attacking)
-casting in medium: check (while raging), but they don't really need heavy armor
-self-enchancing: half-check (bloodrage boosts strength, which affects hit/damage, and can get always-on arcane strike with two feats, and you have a nice selection of buffing spells to pump your AC if you want--though why you would need more than arcane bloodline's free haste+blur+form of the giant/dragon/transformation is beyond me)
but it does not have knowledge nobility as a class skill, it isn't knighty enough.[/joke]
people wan't studious or prepared fluff abilities, while the bloodrager has rage powers, just saying.
rage powers aren't available unless yo're playing a specific archetype and trading away your (fantastic depending on bloodline choice) class abilities for them.
Thanks for all the discussion guys, I like to see all your ideas and the class already put out there by players and third party.
Right now I am putting together my own ideas and thoughts from this thread into a class idea that I would like.
Obviously Full BAB, good Fort and Will, 4th level spellcasting progression.
I'd like to do something like combat style feats/bloodline feats related to your school but with things like the Dimensional feat line, but I'm not sure if there are any other lines that would work. Perhaps just ignore the choosing of a school and have bonus feats that include the dimensional feat line? But then you wouldn't have some kind of school power to increase your dimensional door uses. Hmmm. Perhaps more related to fighting style? So we could have an arcane archer that gets bonus archery feats and some ability to augment arrows, but also the dimensional dervish.
I really like Bandw2's idea of mantras, and I'd like to implement something like that. I was thinking you start being able to cast in light armour without spell failure, then slowing build up to heavy, but the mantra ability also gets better, eventually allowing the stored spells to be quickened or something.
Then add in an arcane shield and spellsunder like ZombieNinja has.
Might be overloading the class a bit.
If I was to try my best to play a character like this with the Bloodrager I would probably make him Steelblood and Arcane, which I think gets close despite the rage.
Bloodrager as an arcane paladin, really? I'd say a magus probably best fits "arcane paladin" if there is any class that fits. I really don't see a sorcery-laden barbarian to be anything like a paladin. Where did the OP get such as misdirected idea?I think the OP was talking more about the mechanics (spellcasting starts at 4th level, only spell levels 1-4, full martial proficiency and full BAB) than the class features, when he/she was talking about an "Arcane Paladin". As of now, the bloodrager fits that definition best of all as far as Paizo classes go.
In that case, I'd call the Bloodrager an arcane ranger, which fits mechanically - I still don't agree that it best fits arcane paladin, both on concept and mechanics that really doesn't make any sense.
I personally prefer the Untouchable Rager archetype for this class which is even more opposite to the paladin concept.
rage powers aren't available unless yo're playing a specific archetype...For what it's worth, I've created a class I've been calling the Arcane Knight that's something like an arcane paladin or ranger of sorts. I've been considering doing a mini 'playtest' of the document on the forums, but haven't had time to devote to it. A few of the essentials.
Arcane Knight
- Full BAB
- Full Caster Level, due to interactions with Arcane Strike, but gains spellcasting at level 4, progresses to level 4 spells.
- Spellcasting is restricted almost entirely to buffing/non-offensive spells, such as haste, lead blades, darkness, and similar spells.
- Can cast spells in medium armor, but has abilities that allow them to cast in heavier armor.
- Can self-enhance armor and weapons temporarily.I've also built a Noble class based on the chassis of the Aristocrat which is extremely customizable, and a Priest class that's a full caster, unarmored and far more divinely based version of the cleric.
If there's interest, I might decide to do the playtest sooner than later.
that sounds remarkably similar to the bloodrager:
-full bab: check
-full CL, gains casting at 4th, maxes at level 4 spells: check
-gets a free level <2 spell on rage eventually, great buff spells (and its offensive spells are trash compared to just attacking)
-casting in medium: check (while raging), but they don't really need heavy armor
-self-enchancing: half-check (bloodrage boosts strength, which affects hit/damage, and can get always-on arcane strike with two feats, and you have a nice selection of buffing spells to pump your AC if you want--though why you would need more than arcane bloodline's free haste+blur+form of the giant/dragon/transformation is beyond me)
but it does not have knowledge nobility as a class skill, it isn't knighty enough.[/joke]
people wan't studious or prepared fluff abilities, while the bloodrager has rage powers, just saying.
right i forgot that, they get their bloodline abilities and can replace the ones they want for rage powers. (the archetype replaces nothing so...)
Hi Bandw2! I hope the following will convince you that it's worth a buy:
Interesting, it gives me a few ideas who my interpretation for a full caster alchemist, i'll definitely buy this when i get home. Like what you named most of the stuff, definitely gives a nice feel to everything.
I think if i was to do a 9th level alchemist, i'd focus less on potions/extracts and make it more about them crafting stuff to "cast" their spells. the biggest part i think is that alchemist's don't have a caster level, they fake it with the stuff they make. so i'd try to capture their own flair at each tier of casting. (just like an inquisitor has it's own flair from a cleric)
some manner of lessening/avoiding arcane spell failure in armor (conditional or otherwise) seems another must. magus-style scaling might be cool, or something like the hellknight signifier's arcane armor expertise and signifier armor training abilities.
as would be some method to make use of your spellcasting and your attacking (since with only 4th level spells at best, your plain attacks will usually outclass your spells very quickly otherwise). spell storing (rune magic?) or something like spellstrike might be fitting to push that angle.
you could consider things like:
-arcanist-style casting, gives the player lots of freedom despite their small pool of spells, or using their weapons as a bonded item/bonded-witch-style familiar
-give it a group of choosable class abilities (akin to magus arcana) that could be possibly be traded for things like combat/metamagic feats, specific magus arcana/arcane discoveries/arcanist exploits, etc.
-choosing a path: one path (classical training) gets a wizard school (at character level -3) and keys off of INT, the other (natural training) gets a sorcerer bloodline (at character level -3) and keys off of CHA. have a class ability (mentioned above) that gives you full advancement in your chosen side, maybe with an 'advanced' version at level 10+ that lets you dabble in the other side with an ECL penalty (and still keyed off of that path's particular stat)
.
edit - the more i think about a runic magic style the more i like it--inscribing your armor to harmonize it with your magic (and thus reduce ASF while wearing your now-bonded armor), storing spells in your weapon to cast like a staff or placing runes onto the weapon to buff it (a la paladin bonded weapon or the magus' arcane pool abilities), prepping your spells as combat forms/stances/wicked dance moves, etc.
edit x2 combo: i think i'll throw together a writeup/draft with stuff like this.
What am I? Chopped liver?
What am I? Chopped liver?
finely chopped and of the highest grade.
I really like Bandw2's idea of mantras, and I'd like to implement something like that. I was thinking you start being able to cast in light armour without spell failure, then slowing build up to heavy, but the mantra ability also gets better, eventually allowing the stored spells to be quickened or something.Then add in an arcane shield and spellsunder like ZombieNinja has.
Might be overloading the class a bit.
If I was to try my best to play a character like this with the Bloodrager I would probably make him Steelblood and Arcane, which I think gets close despite the rage.
a class should be overloaded, overloaded with CHOICES, i hate classes that don't give the player any choice. spellcasters excluded since spells are the choice.
so it seems we're going to end up with something like 4-5 arcane paladin's, i think today we can chock this up as a win.
very rough WIP musing. currently lacking a capstone, more rune art options, and any semblance of balancing.
very rough WIP musing. currently lacking a capstone, more rune art options, and any semblance of balancing.
HE DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO USE SHIELDS!!!! AAAHHH CHAOS
edit: i should probably add bonus feats to my class too, can't believe i forgot about that. done
also mustmask ADD COLOR!
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I made a homebrew class called the Warden I was pretty pleased with. You can still find it on the boards. Made quite a few adjustments in thread, though. It ended up being a paladin-style chassis, but replaced LoH and other stuff with Cavalier-esque magic schools and other nifty things. I should go back and revisit it.
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Oddly I keep thinking that the I might want to change the vanquisher class to psychic (occult) magic, but then he wouldn't technically qualify as a arcane paladin. But something just keeps pushing me that direction. Anyway with the warpriest and paladin both existing I think we could have an arcane paladin (so to speak), and a bloodrager, and probably have less cross over in theme.
For those who are interested, my playtest thread (and the link to the playtest classes) is Here.
Anyone willing to playtest my True Warrior from 1st page, I'd appreciate it. Uses all the same utterances from Truenamer in Tome of Magic (just get less).
TRUE WARRIOR
I feel like i'd understand this at all if I knew what truenaming was. reciting his own truename seems borderline OP though, unless laws of resistance cause him to catch on fire or something
TRUE WARRIORI feel like i'd understand this at all if I knew what truenaming was. reciting his own truename seems borderline OP though, unless laws of resistance cause him to catch on fire or something
Truenaming is in Tome of Magic page 191. Utterance rules page 232.
Personal Truespeak check DC 15 + HD x2 +2 (though he gets +4 bonus to speak his own name).For utterances that are used on others DC is 15 + 2x HD (for allies) or 2xCR (for foes).
Law of Resistance is a rule that every success means further use of that particular utterances is +2 DC (stacks).
This is used instead of uses/day. So each utterance is mostly limited by how often you can make the check.
Truespeak skill (Int based): Skill mod is Ranks +Int mod + what other bonuses you can find to this skill (like Skill focus).
very rough WIP musing. currently lacking a capstone, more rune art options, and any semblance of balancing.
HE DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO USE SHIELDS!!!! AAAHHH CHAOS
edit:
i should probably add bonus feats to my class too, can't believe i forgot about that.donealso mustmask ADD COLOR!
it was a straight copy+paste from a notepad document i was hacking it together in, and im not sure what google docs has done this last month or so, but now i literally cannot open any docs (it loads for ~30 seconds, then gives a constantly-refreshing popup that it failed to load the doc, despite the doc BEING FULLY LOADED BEHIND IT), so editing it requires me to do so on my phone of all things (and good luck doing anything fiddly on that).
the lack of shields was on purpose, actually--gotta keep that free hand for casting (i suppose you could use a buckler, but a mithral one already has no penalties for non-proficiency...). i was considering changing the ward power to a shield bonus instead of deflection (gives it a better niche stacking-wise, lets you use a ring of protection, etc.)
You could make a magus archetype that trades out his spell progression for the paladin's table, increases to d10 and 1/1 BAB. Though in the end, how would this be all that different at 10th level than Fighter 4/Magus 6?
very rough WIP musing. currently lacking a capstone, more rune art options, and any semblance of balancing.
HE DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO USE SHIELDS!!!! AAAHHH CHAOS
edit:
i should probably add bonus feats to my class too, can't believe i forgot about that.donealso mustmask ADD COLOR!
it was a straight copy+paste from a notepad document i was hacking it together in, and im not sure what google docs has done this last month or so, but now i literally cannot open any docs (it loads for ~30 seconds, then gives a constantly-refreshing popup that it failed to load the doc, despite the doc BEING FULLY LOADED BEHIND IT), so editing it requires me to do so on my phone of all things (and good luck doing anything fiddly on that).
the lack of shields was on purpose, actually--gotta keep that free hand for casting (i suppose you could use a buckler, but a mithral one already has no penalties for non-proficiency...). i was considering changing the ward power to a shield bonus instead of deflection (gives it a better niche stacking-wise, lets you use a ring of protection, etc.)
but what if he wants to wield a shield and bash with it?
but what if he wants to wield a shield and bash with it?very rough WIP musing. currently lacking a capstone, more rune art options, and any semblance of balancing.
HE DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO USE SHIELDS!!!! AAAHHH CHAOS
edit:
i should probably add bonus feats to my class too, can't believe i forgot about that.donealso mustmask ADD COLOR!
it was a straight copy+paste from a notepad document i was hacking it together in, and im not sure what google docs has done this last month or so, but now i literally cannot open any docs (it loads for ~30 seconds, then gives a constantly-refreshing popup that it failed to load the doc, despite the doc BEING FULLY LOADED BEHIND IT), so editing it requires me to do so on my phone of all things (and good luck doing anything fiddly on that).
the lack of shields was on purpose, actually--gotta keep that free hand for casting (i suppose you could use a buckler, but a mithral one already has no penalties for non-proficiency...). i was considering changing the ward power to a shield bonus instead of deflection (gives it a better niche stacking-wise, lets you use a ring of protection, etc.)
then he can take the proficiency feat or dip like everyone else?
Though I like the above mentioned Battle Scion, I have never seen a better take on a pathfinder arcane paladin then the Iron Mage
The concept was started very early in the days of pathfinder, and went through several iterations. I've seen a few played at the table, a very solid class in my opinion and a perfect fit for the 'arcane paladin' mold.
I'm just not feeling these school based full martial classes.
The spellcasting should be secondary, to whatever the primary class abilities are.
Magi don't even focus on particular schools, so it doesn't make thematic sense for me to have a class who is less focused on magic than that be [/i]more trained[/i] in specialized school magic.
I'm pretty proud of the Enforcer class I posted upthread, and there was a loooong discussion thread and 'playtest' for it.
then he can take the proficiency feat or dip like everyone else?but what if he wants to wield a shield and bash with it?very rough WIP musing. currently lacking a capstone, more rune art options, and any semblance of balancing.
HE DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO USE SHIELDS!!!! AAAHHH CHAOS
edit:
i should probably add bonus feats to my class too, can't believe i forgot about that.donealso mustmask ADD COLOR!
it was a straight copy+paste from a notepad document i was hacking it together in, and im not sure what google docs has done this last month or so, but now i literally cannot open any docs (it loads for ~30 seconds, then gives a constantly-refreshing popup that it failed to load the doc, despite the doc BEING FULLY LOADED BEHIND IT), so editing it requires me to do so on my phone of all things (and good luck doing anything fiddly on that).
the lack of shields was on purpose, actually--gotta keep that free hand for casting (i suppose you could use a buckler, but a mithral one already has no penalties for non-proficiency...). i was considering changing the ward power to a shield bonus instead of deflection (gives it a better niche stacking-wise, lets you use a ring of protection, etc.)
BOOO! *throws popcorn*
I'm just not feeling these school based full martial classes.
The spellcasting should be secondary, to whatever the primary class abilities are.
Magi don't even focus on particular schools, so it doesn't make thematic sense for me to have a class who is less focused on magic than that be [/i]more trained[/i] in specialized school magic.
mine gains a school but at half effective wizard level.