OK we have run across this in our campaign and we are wondering if we have this right.
Fighter Crafter with 17 INT feats as follows:
Level 1: Skill Focus (Craft:Weapons)+ Fighter Bonus Feat
Level 2: Fighter Bonus Feat
Level 3: Skill Focus (Craft:Armor)+ Campaign Bonus Feat
Level 4: Fighter Bonus Feat
Level 5: Master Craftsman (Weapons)
Level 6: Fighter Bonus Feat
Level 7: Craft Magic Arms & Armor + Master Craftsman (Armor)
Level 8: Fighter Bonus Feat
Yes we have 2 bonus Feats, one at 3rd and one at 7th (so far)
This build (assuming max skill points in the 2 crafting skills per level, should allow a Fighter to make Magic Weapons & Armor (excluding ranged weapons since Bower/Fletcher is a separate skill) as if they were a CL:8
They would have a skill check of : 19
8 Ranks +3 Skill Focus + 2 Master Craftsman +3 INT Mod +3 Class Skill
Does that sound about right?
Note Corrected the MC: Armor at L7
Note...yes we understand that taking Master Craftsman multiple times is a grey area. For arguments sake say it is allowed.
Taking Master Craftsman multiple times is unnecessary. You don't need to take it multiple times, nor do you need multiple skills. One craft skill does everything you want it to do, and more. One craft skill will allow you to create armour weapons and bows (and even wondrous items if you use that feat you've gained to take Craft Wondrous instead).
You can even choose a profession skill and use it to craft weapons, bows and armour (and wondrous items if you take that feat).
That said +19 looks right, +21 with masterwork tools.
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dragonhunterq is referring to a minority interpretation that Master Craftsman (Armour) allows you to use Craft (Armour) to make non-armour magic items, based on the following text:
"You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item."
It is not generally accepted that this text overrides the usual restrictions on the skills that can be used to make specific items.
dragonhunterq is referring to a minority interpretation that Master Craftsman (Armour) allows you to use Craft (Armour) to make non-armour magic items, based on the following text:
"You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item."
It is not generally accepted that this text overrides the usual restrictions on the skills that can be used to make specific items.
Yes I understand that "interpretation" But since you replace the CL with the skill rank. it would be pretty hard crafting armor without having the craft: armor skill in the first place...0 ranks = a CL of 0.
The second Master Craftsman may be unnecessary by some interpretations, then you would still have 8 ranks but you would lose the MC +2 bonus to the roll. Since we may be dealing with missing reagents, and pressed or time in our campaign we are accelerating crafting adding 5 to the DC, so we like the extra +2.
Our GM house rule decision was to allow master craftsman taken multiple times (hey its your feats your burning) to allow the expanded access.
This could also open up Craft Wondrous Items at a higher level and allow access to some of the stuff there.
Yes I understand that "interpretation" But since you replace the CL with the skill rank. it would be pretty hard crafting armor without having the craft: armor skill in the first place...0 ranks = a CL of 0.
In other words, you don't understand it. Because, by that interpretation, you make all items using the one Craft skill regardless of item type, which you must have 5 ranks in and thus a min CL of 5.
For the record, I agree that the language doesn't support overriding the normal restriction on skills.
But for those that do, there is no CL problem.
dragonhunterq is referring to a minority interpretation that Master Craftsman (Armour) allows you to use Craft (Armour) to make non-armour magic items.
That's a very diplomatic phrasing. Rather like
So-and-so is referring to a minority interpretation in geography that the world is burrito-shaped, or
Such-and-such is referring to a minority interpretation in political science that Georg Friedrich is the Emperor of Germany.
Thingummy is referring to a minority interpretation in cosmology that "there was no Big Bang, but rather progressive growth from a Hydrogen Atom Totality into the present “Plutonium Atom Totality”, in which the galaxies are dots of the electron-dot-cloud."
Someone is referring to a minority interpretation in neuroscience that your brain is actually coextensive with your entire body.
It is not generally accepted that this text overrides the usual restrictions on the skills that can be used to make specific items.
Again, I compliment you on your diplomatic skills.
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Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in [/b]your chosen skill[/b] count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
What other skill have you chosen?
How can an instruction that you "must" use the "chosen" skill not over-ride the general rules?Why would the feat allow you to choose a profession skill? profession skills can't normally be used to craft anything.
I can't match Wierdo's diplomacy and I apologise for that, but I ask you to empty your mind of what you think the feat should do and re-read it. go through it step by step and really think about what it asks you to do.
Step by Step:
It asks you to choose a Craft or Profession skill.
It specifically allows you to count your ranks in your chosen skill as your caster level to qualify for two feats.
It specifically asks you to use the ranks in the chosen skill as your caster level.
It specifically tells you you must use the chosen skill for the check to craft the item.
Minority doesn't mean wrong.
I'll just quote what I posted the last time this feat was up for debate:
From my understanding of the feat you can't take Master Craftsman more than once, and the feat stipulates that you must use your chosen skill to make the item. IE if you take Craft Magical Arms And Armor you have to choose to specialize in Craft: armor, Craft: weapons, or Craft: bows. Depending on what skill you choose you're utilizing between 50% and 10% of Craft Magical Arms and Armor compared to a normal caster, who pays a feat less than you and only has to worry about spellcraft. If you take Craft Wondrous Items, your best bet is either Craft: Jewelry/Profession: Jewelsmith or Craft: Clothing/Profession: Tailor, both of which gives you access to less than half the options offered by the feat.
Conversely you can argue that you can use your chosen skill to make ALL skill checks needed with the feat. That makes the feat better (giving you half the advantage of a spellcaster) but many GMs will balk at the idea that your great skill at basketweaving makes you qualified at making elixirs, magical incense, a folding boat, a clamor box, an escape ladder, a portable hole, a manual of war and a submarine.
If you're trying to make the most of your Craft skill you can consider getting Masterwork Tools (+2) and have someone cast Crafter's Fortune (+5) on you.
From my understanding of the feat you can't take Master Craftsman more than once, and the feat stipulates that you must use your chosen skill to make the item. IE if you take Craft Magical Arms And Armor you have to choose to specialize in Craft: armor, Craft: weapons, or Craft: bows. Depending on what skill you choose you're utilizing between 50% and 10% of Craft Magical Arms and Armor compared to a normal caster, who pays a feat less than you and only has to worry about spellcraft. If you take Craft Wondrous Items, your best bet is either Craft: Jewelry/Profession: Jewelsmith or Craft: Clothing/Profession: Tailor, both of which gives you access to less than half the options offered by the feat.
Conversely you can argue that you can use your chosen skill to make ALL skill checks needed with the feat. That makes the feat better (giving you half the advantage of a spellcaster) but many GMs will balk at the idea that your great skill at basketweaving makes you qualified at making elixirs, magical incense, a folding boat, a clamor box, an escape ladder, a portable hole, a manual of war and a submarine.
The section I've bolded does not exist. Seriously, read the feat again.
Please let me know where in the feat it says I must use a skill appropriate to the item I'm enchanting.
Please let me know the profession skill that allows me to craft any single wondrous item, armour or weapon.
Please let me know where the feat says that the skill I choose is restricted in any way.
There are no such restrictions or limitations other than personally disliking Profession(hairdresser) allowing you to make elixirs, magical incense, a folding boat, a clamor box, an escape ladder, a portable hole, a manual of war and a submarine.
The reality is that you are using the skill to enchant the item, to draw and bind the magic in to it. You are not creating the base item.
That's where GM oversight comes in. Make the players justify how Profession (hairdresser) or Craft (Basketweaving) is involved in making the item rather than adding restrictions that don't exist. In a world where characters can walk through walls and dragons are just an occupational hazard how hard is it to imagine a basketweaver twisting willow into arcane glyphs and then setting them alight to focus the fire magic into a flaming sword, or the hairstyle whose actions are the somatic requirements to link a breach in space/time with a disc of black cloth.
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Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in [/b]your chosen skill[/b] count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.What other skill have you chosen?
How can an instruction that you "must" use the "chosen" skill not over-ride the general rules?
Because it says you "must" use that skill, not you "can" (or you "may") use that skill.
"Must" a limitation, not an enabler. Similarly, a job advertisement that says "applicants must be fluent in both English and German" will not grant everyone who applies the ability to speak two languages.
The specific sentences are: "You can create magic items using these feats," which enables you to do so (because "can" is an enabler, but "you must use the chosen skill," which limits what you are enabled to do.
Okay, let's consider what the feat gives us:
You pick one craft or profession skill. You gain a +2 bonus to that skill.
You treat your ranks in that skill as your caster level in order to qualify for CMAaA and CWI.
You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your caster level.
That's it.
"You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item." is not an ability given, it's a restriction. It means you can only create magic items that your chosen skill can create.
Next we turn to the CRB. In pages 550-553 we find the list of skills that can be used to make magic items. These are spellcraft (for everything), Craft: Armor for magic armor and shields, Craft: Bows for magic bows and arrows, Craft: Alchemy for potions, Craft: Jewelry for rings, Craft: Calligraphy or Profession: Scribe for scrolls, Craft: Jewelry, Craft: Sculptures, and Profession: Woodcutter for staves and wands, and "an applicable Craft or Profession skill" for wondrous items. Master Craftsman has no text that allows us to disregard this list.
Note that this means that you can potentially use Basketweaving to make wondrous items, but only if your GM signs off on the idea that Basketweaving is an applicable profession skill for whatever item you're trying to make.
With that said, if you want to make a Rules Questions thread seeking clarification for Master Craftsman I'd be happy to FAQ it with you. The topic pops up on the Rules Questions forum at least once a year. I've hit FAQ on a few threads on the subject already, but the threads usually don't get more than ~5 requests apiece. I'm guessing it's in part because the threads rarely get much traction and in part because people think it's unambiguous.
The feat does create a specific exception to the general rules. An exception that actually prohibits you from using the general skill. If you have craft(armour) +12, craft(basketweaving)+8 and master craftsman (basket weaving) you must use craft (basketweaving) instead of craft(armour) to enchant your armour.
The feat limits you to using your chosen skill.
The feat does not limit you to using the appropriate skill on the item crafting list.
That limitation simply does not exist.
To be bound by the general rules the feat would need a clause limiting you to a craft skill only and a further restriction to a skill appropriate to the craft feat you want to go on to choose. The feat puts no restrictions on the skill you can choose.
Lets choose a skill. Lets choose craft (weapons). Plug it into that feat and read it. It does exactly what it says it does. Anything else is adding rules that don't exist.
You receive a +2 bonus on Craft (weapons). Ranks in craft (weapons) count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in Craft (weapons) for your total caster level. You must use Craft (weapons) for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
EDITED to accomodate an error on my part - I had missed that Kudaku :)
The limitation exists. I've already named several profession skills that can be used to make magical items, such as woodcutter or scribe. Hell, I even referenced it with page numbers in the post immediately before yours.
Next we turn to the CRB. In pages 550-553 we find the list of skills that can be used to make magic items. These are spellcraft (for everything), Craft: Armor for magic armor and shields, Craft: Bows for magic bows and arrows, Craft: Alchemy for potions, Craft: Jewelry for rings, Craft: Calligraphy or Profession: Scribe for scrolls, Craft: Jewelry, Craft: Sculptures, and Profession: Woodcutter for staves and wands, and "an applicable Craft or Profession skill" for wondrous items.
Master Craftsman allows taking a Profession skill because using a profession skill is a legal option for creating wondrous magic items.
The limitation exists. I've already named several profession skills that can be used to make magical items, such as woodcutter or scribe. Hell, I even referenced it with page numbers in the post immediately before yours.
Next we turn to the CRB. In pages 550-553 we find the list of skills that can be used to make magic items. These are spellcraft (for everything), Craft: Armor for magic armor and shields, Craft: Bows for magic bows and arrows, Craft: Alchemy for potions, Craft: Jewelry for rings, Craft: Calligraphy or Profession: Scribe for scrolls, Craft: Jewelry, Craft: Sculptures, and Profession: Woodcutter for staves and wands, and "an applicable Craft or Profession skill" for wondrous items.Master Craftsman allows taking a Profession skill because using a profession skill is a legal option for creating wondrous magic items.
Missed that, sorry. I have edited my post to account for my error. I raised a bad point, but I stand by the remaining points.
I am with dragonhunterg in this case: In game you don't use the skill to create the basic item, but you use it to entchant it - normally you take Spellcraft to do that, but can take another "appropriate" crafting feat that is usually used to create the item that you want to entchant.
Now the process of enchanting the item can be done with your Master Craftsman skill - you posess such an expertise in your skill that is similar to magic. During the process of enchanting the item you certainly don't weave a basket (if you took Master Craftsman for Craft: Basketweaving). You just make a check for this skill because it is your way of conjuring the magic needed to create the magic item.
I guess we're in the minority here and I can see and understand the arguments of the other side. As I see no problem balance-wise and have no problem of fitting such an action into the logic of the game world, I'd rather rule it in favour of the non-casting crafter.
The feat does create a specific exception to the general rules. An exception that actually prohibits you from using the general skill. If you have craft(armour) +12, craft(basketweaving)+8 and master craftsman (basket weaving) you must use craft (basketweaving) instead of craft(armour) to enchant your armour.
The feat limits you to using your chosen skill.
... but does not empower you to do so.
Here's an actual, real-world, legal use of the word "must."
Applicants applying for a Texas driver license must meet the following vision standards: [list omitted.]
Dragonhunter's interpretation suggests --- literally --- that he's found a cure for blindness. Simply apply for a driver's license in Texas, and your vision will be improved. If that doesn't give you good enough vision, I suppose you could then apply to the FAA for a commercial pilot's license.
One problem Dragonhunter's interpretation has is how he seems to be reading the Craft skill. Craft is not one single skill, though. Craft (weapon) is different from Craft (armour), Craft (bowyer), and Craft (cheese slices). You can't use Craft (musical instrument) to make a magical weapon, despite how awesome your 'axes' normally might be; likewise, no using Craft (weapon) to make percussion mallets.
The CRB does state you can use a Craft skill, but it does need to be the right one. Either they were anticipating someone taking Master Craftsman or someone built a wizard in playtesting with five ranks of Spellcraft and ten of Craft.
One problem Dragonhunter's interpretation has is how he seems to be reading the Craft skill.
No, that's not it.
Craft is not one single skill, though. Craft (weapon) is different from Craft (armour), Craft (bowyer), and Craft (cheese slices).
Dragonhunter would be with you so far. But he doesn't accept that:
You can't use Craft (musical instrument) to make a magical weapon, despite how awesome your 'axes' normally might be; likewise, no using Craft (weapon) to make percussion mallets.
He interprets "you must" as meaning "you are now able to, even though you normally couldn't."
So craft (armor) now allows you to make guitars and craft (shoes) lets you make arrows, but only if you have the Master Craftsman feat.
In other news, Archimedes Plutonium believes that the universe is a giant plutonium atom, and David Icke believes that the world is controlled by interdimensional shape-shifting lizard-people from a rift in the space-time continuum near the constellation Draco, and that our experiential reality is a hologram beamed down by our alien overlords from the moon, which is actually a space-station with a hollow interior.
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The feat limits you to using your chosen skill.
Correct.
The feat does not limit you to using the appropriate skill on the item crafting list.
That limitation simply does not exist.
False, that limitation exists in the item crafting list - the general rules.
To be bound by the general rules the feat would need a clause limiting you to a craft skill only and a further restriction to a skill appropriate to the craft feat you want to go on to choose. The feat puts no restrictions on the skill you can choose.
To be bound by the general rules, the feat merely needs to not include a specific exception to those rules.
See the Broad Study Arcana:
Benefit: The magus selects another one of his spellcasting classes. The magus can use his spellstrike and spell combat abilities while casting or using spells from the spell list of that class. This does not allow him to cast arcane spells from that class’s spell list without suffering the normal chances of arcane spell failure, unless the spell lacks somatic components.
This arcana allows you to ignore one of the limitations of spellstrike and spell combat, namely that you can only use these abilities with magus spells.
It does not allow you to ignore the other limitations associated with spellstrike, such as the fact that you can only use spellstrike with a spell with a range of "touch."
It does not allow you to ignore the other limitations associated with spell combat, such as needing a free hand.
It's up to you to select a spellcasting class that would be useful with this ability. The bard for example has only one harmful touch-range spell, touch of gracelessness, plus the cure line if you're fighting undead, so they can't really use spellstrike. Heck, you could also take this as a Paladin 3 / Magus 6 - Paladin is a spellcasting class, even if you don't have enough levels to cast your spells. Paizo is not required to make useless choices impossible.
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From my understanding of the feat you can't take Master Craftsman more than once, and the feat stipulates that you must use your chosen skill to make the item. IE if you take Craft Magical Arms And Armor you have to choose to specialize in Craft: armor, Craft: weapons, or Craft: bows. Depending on what skill you choose you're utilizing between 50% and 10% of Craft Magical Arms and Armor compared to a normal caster, who pays a feat less than you and only has to worry about spellcraft. If you take Craft Wondrous Items, your best bet is either Craft: Jewelry/Profession: Jewelsmith or Craft: Clothing/Profession: Tailor, both of which gives you access to less than half the options offered by the feat.
Conversely you can argue that you can use your chosen skill to make ALL skill checks needed with the feat. That makes the feat better (giving you half the advantage of a spellcaster) but many GMs will balk at the idea that your great skill at basketweaving makes you qualified at making elixirs, magical incense, a folding boat, a clamor box, an escape ladder, a portable hole, a manual of war and a submarine.
The section I've bolded does not exist. Seriously, read the feat again.
Please let me know where in the feat it says I must use a skill appropriate to the item I'm enchanting.
Please let me know the profession skill that allows me to craft any single wondrous item, armour or weapon.
Please let me know where the feat says that the skill I choose is restricted in any way.
There are no such restrictions or limitations other than personally disliking Profession(hairdresser) allowing you to make elixirs, magical incense, a folding boat, a clamor box, an escape ladder, a portable hole, a manual of war and a submarine.
The reality is that you are using the skill to enchant the item, to draw and bind the magic in to it. You are not creating the base item.
That's where GM oversight comes in. Make the players justify how Profession...
PLe4ase, point out where the feat override this: "Creating Magic Armor - Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft or Craft (armor)."
"Creating Magic Weapons - Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons)."and so on for all other crafting feats.
The feat don't override that rule, so it don't allow you to make items not covered by the skill.
You need specific exception.
Edit: I see it was said a few times already, but "repetita iuvant".
You have to read the ENTIRE feat. The one line about "must use" does not exist in isolation. The entire feat read in it's entirety creates the exception.
You receive a +2 bonus on Craft (basket weaving).
Ranks in craft (basket weaving) count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.
You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in Craft (basket weaving) for your total caster level.
You must use Craft (basket weaving) for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
"Choose one" - There are absolutely zero requirements or limitations to the skill you choose, and that skill you choose sets the parameters for everything else the feat does.
And Orfamay, I don't suggest that Craft (Armour) now allows you to make guitars - that's absurd, It allows you to enchant a guitar. There is a difference.
And your real world example would be more like me suggesting that you could apply for you licence using your dental records instead of meeting the required vision test, as long as it was preceded by "Choose one medical record. You can use the record you choose to apply for a driving licence. You must use the medical record you choose to apply for a driving licence".
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YAnd Orfamay, I don't suggest that Craft (Armour) now allows you to make guitars - that's absurd, It allows you to enchant a guitar. There is a difference.
You are the one that think that the ability "enchant guitar" can be used on a bow.
You need permission to use a skill that isn't listed under the appropriate Craft section. You don't get it so you can't enchant the item.Non getting that is failing at rule comprehension.
Non getting that is failing at rule comprehension.
When there is a difference of opinion on how to read a rule that can easily apply to both sides. It does you no credit to start attacking my ability to read the rules sir.
You have to read the ENTIRE feat. The one line about "must use" does not exist in isolation. The entire feat read in it's entirety creates the exception.
It does not.
Let me go line by line:
You receive a +2 bonus on Craft (basket weaving).
This should be self-explanatory.
Ranks in craft (basket weaving) count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.
Normally, you need a caster level to qualify for crafting feats. This enables you to use a skill level to do so.
You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in Craft (basket weaving) for your total caster level.
So I can now use Craft (basket weaving) to create magical items using these feats. These feats, in turn, specify that an "applicable" Craft skill must be used to create the items, so with Craft (basket weaving), you could, for example, make an efficient quiver.
Note the wording. "You can create ..." It's an enabler that allows you to do something you couldn't normally do, such as make such a quiver without a caster level.
But nothing about this suggests you could use this to make a guitar or a sword.
You must use Craft (basket weaving) for the check to create the item.
This phrase does not enable you to do anything.
The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items).
This phrase does not enable you to do anything.
You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
This phrase does not enable you to do anything.
"Choose one" - There are absolutely zero requirements or limitations to the skill you choose,
This is correct.
and that skill you choose sets the parameters for everything else the feat does.
... within the existing rules for using the feats. You can now use Craft Magic Arms and Armor to make magical armor, but the rules for Craft Magic Arms and Armor state that the only skills that can be used to make magical armor are Spellcraft and Craft (armor).
Feat(s) Required: Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
Skill(s) Required: Spellcraft or Craft (armor).
You can now use Craft Magic Arms and Armor to make magical weapons, but the rules for Craft Magic Arms and Armor state that the only skills that can be used to make magical weapons are Spellcraft, Craft (weapons), or Craft (bows).
Feat(s) Required: Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
Skill(s) Required: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons).
And, finally, you can now use Craft Wondrous Item to make wondrous items, but the rules for Craft Wondrous items state:
Feat(s) Required: Craft Wondrous Item.
Skill(s) Required: Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check.
... so you're limited to items for which Craft (basket weaving) is appropriate. And nothing about the text of Master Craftsman removes those limits.
And Orfamay, I don't suggest that Craft (Armour) now allows you to make guitars - that's absurd, It allows you to enchant a guitar. There is a difference.
Then your reading comprehension is even poorer than I had thought. Re-read the feat:
You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in Craft (basket weaving) for your total caster level. You must use Craft (basket weaving) for the check to create the item.
When there is a difference of opinion on how to read a rule that can easily apply to both sides.Non getting that is failing at rule comprehension.
Not when only one side of the difference is supported by any sensible reading of the documents.
As I mentioned earlier, David Icke believes that the world is controlled by interdimensional shape-shifting lizard-people from a rift in the space-time continuum near the constellation Draco, and that our experiential reality is a hologram beamed down by our alien overlords from the moon, which is actually a space-station with a hollow interior. Should I consider this to be simply "a difference of opinion" on the House of Windsor's species?
And that is a baseless and rude comparison. I think this conversation is over.
There have been interesting discussions about this topic before - but without insulting comparisons.
Some find it unreasonable that "you must use skill x (to entchant item y)" overrides "Skill(s) required" (to entchant item y) but others don't.
I didn't know about the lizard-people from Draco, but a lot of things begin to make sense now...
It seems like a shame that a Fighter who wants to spend two feats on Craft Magic Arms & Armor basically has it turn into Craft Magic Arms OR Armor and doesn't even have the option of spending another feat to get the "&". Craft Wondrous Items seems a lot more flexible. Depending on how strict the DM is with item descriptions, Craft (Leather) or Craft (Jewelry) could be used for a lot of stuff. I mean, whether an amulet of mighty fists could be a dog collar of mighty biting is probably up to the DM. I know there are some real sticklers in regards to boots and horseshoes, but I'm not sure how many DMs would say that bracers or armor need to be made of a certain material or couldn't actually be magic bracelets.
There have been interesting discussions about this topic before - but without insulting comparisons.
And since those discussions obviously didn't work, I see no need to repeat them. On the other hand, if accurate descriptions of the level of counterfactual belief necessary to perform this particular mental gyration will discourage the factually-impaired from imparting false information to the curious, I am more than happy to provide those descriptions.
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At the end of the day, as this looks to be a home game, what is your DM's ruling on this.
If your DM is fine with either taking Master Craftsman twice (armor & weapon), or if he is fine with taking Profession (Lawyer) to enchant all your equipment then great.
If not, well then you will need to work with your DM to find out what limits or understanding he as about the feats to ensure that you aren't in effect wasting feats.
At the end of the day, it will probably be some balance between you and your DM as to what is allowed, makes sense and enables fun.
John
There have been interesting discussions about this topic before - but without insulting comparisons.
And since those discussions obviously didn't work, I see no need to repeat them. On the other hand, if accurate descriptions of the level of counterfactual belief necessary to perform this particular mental gyration will discourage the factually-impaired from imparting false information to the curious, I am more than happy to provide those descriptions.
I must say to Orfamay (and others), that I agree with your break down and interpretation of the rules in this case. However, it is not that obvious, and the writing of the Master Craftsman feat leaves something to be desired.
I think there is unnecessary vitriol and condescension in some of these posts.
I have been studying these rules for almost 15 years, and I am no slouch. On reading this feat the first time, I thought it was written to work as Dragonhunterq advocates. My reaction to that was "well that's dumb, you have to use the skill you would use to craft the item, duh...", and then I never thought about it again. Note that I assumed I was house ruling that. I didn't think about the line under creating items that states what skill is used. The fact that you have to reference three or maybe four sections of the rules to learn how to create a magic item, is what causes these issues.
Also, after commending Weirdo on his diplomacy, one might expect you to emulate it.
In conclusion; I agree with the majority interpretation of the rules here, but I can see where one might be led astray.
And of course, as always, you do whatever you want in your games.
This has taken a life of its own..
I think its because we have 2 schools of thought. The old Monty Hall player and the conservative player.
The Monty Hall player wants to rule lawyer the crap out of something and so they can get the most bang for their buck. After all if they can craft their +5 Impervious, Glamered, Transformative, Dueling Vorpal Blade using craft: basketweaving, they will (it can be argued, trust me)
On the otherhand were using some common sense.
Basically you have become such an expert at your craft, that you can make glorious item. Masamune ( the greatest swordsmith of all) forges a sword of such excellence that a single stroke of its blade can "sever an opponent's head (if it has one) from its body" (Vorpal).
But if you went to Masamune for armor he would shrug. The idea of the Master craftsman feat is that you have dedicated the time to mastering THAT craft.
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Er... I think that's too broad a summary. Personally I wish Master Craftsman worked closer to the way Dragonhunter argues it does, since that would make it a less awful feat. However since this is the Rules Questions forum I'm trying to leave my personal opinion of the feat distinct from how I think the feat actually works. To be perfectly clear, as it stands I do think Master Craftsman is an incredibly underwhelming option for the few character classes that don't have a way to finagle a caster level.
There have been numerous suggestions to make the feat less of a trap option. Examples include simply treating your craft/spellcraft ranks as your caster level once you have Master Craftsman, or allowing a character with Master Craftsman to enchant appropriate items with their one skill without taking the prerequisite crafting feats. Until quite recently a popular workaround was to simply gain an SLA, which would grant you a caster level and so qualify you for crafting feats.
Finally, I wasn't going to post in this thread since I was unhappy with the level of hostility that was starting to show in some of the posts here. I'd like to remind everyone to try and dial the snark back - intentionally using insults to try and make a point run counter to every rule in the community guidelines.
At the end of the day, as this looks to be a home game, what is your DM's ruling on this.
If your DM is fine with either taking Master Craftsman twice (armor & weapon), or if he is fine with taking Profession (Lawyer) to enchant all your equipment then great.
John
1st off. ROTFLMAO
Taking Profession: (Rules) LawyerBasically yeah our GM is good with the way we did it. The idea was to post it here as an OPTIONAL idea for those trying to do this. It has a little give and take and IMHO goes along with what we think was intended.
Our option allows a non magic user to make magical items but in a limited way and as i said uses some common sense. Of course the best argument against common sense is " BUT THIS IS A FANTASY GAME" so there is always that.
Of course were all gamers form the pink box/blue box era, you know when elf and dwarf were a class/race. As a GM I am more niggardly than our current GM, I find its easier to give something that is needed when needed, rather than try to take away something away when the missions are too easy. (Had a whole Star Wars Saga game implode on me 10 or so years ago for something like that)
When it comes to most craft/profession skills anyway they are pretty much all useless or confusing in most aspects of game play and a waste of time to most players, Why take craft: basketweaving when i can take swim/climb/ etc something that will assist me in combat or in direct dungeon delving. The amount of gold generated through the skills are a pittance compared to what one gets from slaying evil monsters. And why would I want to have Profession: Barrister anyway ( except to argue the rules)[for those that didn't know a barrister is basically a lawyer
Er... I think that's too broad a summary. Personally I wish Master Craftsman worked closer to the way Dragonhunter argues it does, since that would make it a less awful feat. However since this is the Rules Questions forum I'm trying to leave my personal opinion of the feat distinct from how I think the feat actually works. To be perfectly clear, as it stands I do think Master Craftsman is an incredibly underwhelming option for the few character classes that don't have a way to finagle a caster level.
There have been numerous suggestions to make the feat less of a trap option. Examples include simply treating your craft/spellcraft ranks as your caster level once you have Master Craftsman, or allowing a character with Master Craftsman to enchant appropriate items with their one skill without taking the prerequisite crafting feats. Until quite recently a popular workaround was to simply gain an SLA, which would grant you a caster level and so qualify you for crafting feats.
Finally, I wasn't going to post in this thread since I was unhappy with the level of hostility that was starting to show in some of the posts here. I'd like to remind everyone to try and dial the snark back - intentionally using insults to try and make a point run counter to every rule in the community guidelines.
Honestly, I do agree with the idea that Master Craftsman is a bit of a tax for the sin of 'not being a spellcaster', although it does at least allow that master swordsmith to forge something good--prior editions left you out in the cold or going to Bloodbath and Beyond's wizard section.
Naturally, one might call into question the whole crafting system. I won't do it here. (But it stinks.)
My current character's concept is a lot of self-reliance. Which means making her own damn weapons, at least. (Armour is store-bought, sadly.) So she's got two feats to kiss goodbye, MC at 5 and Craft Magic Arms and Not Armour at 7.
At least it's better than the skill unlock. That takes 20 ranks to do this. Guess who has 20 ranks in their skills?
Isn't there a trait that lets you craft +1 weapons and armor as a non-caster.....I swear there was but can't find it now for the life of me.
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Toilcrafter, but you still need to take the Craft Magic Arms & Armour feat, you still need to choose one skill to use the trait with, and being able to craft only +1 items (with no special qualities) becomes useless as soon as you want an upgrade.
EDIT: My current houserule is that anyone with 5 ranks or more in any Craft skill can take crafting feats, treating the ranks in such Craft skills as caster level for the purpose of making appropriate items. For example, a character with 7 ranks in Craft (weapons) and 5 in Craft (armour) can take the Craft Arms & Armour feat and make weapons as if they had caster level 7, and armour as if they had caster level 5, and cannot make magic bows. The penalty for not being a caster is not being able to use a single skill for crafting - and having a harder time meeting spell prerequisites. Seems sufficient.