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Although the rogue's own debilitating injury doesn't stack with itself, can it stack with other rogues' debilitating injuries? It is important to know how these interact because I have friends that I am going to Gen Con with and we are all rogue (unchained) builds.
Let's look at some scenarios:
Scenario 1: Rogue A and Rogue B are flanking their targets and each get sneak attack on their turn. Rogue A goes first. He takes 2 attacks and applies Debilitating Blow: Bewildered on his first attack, and uses the second sneak attack to extend the duration by one round. Rogue B then goes, and the opponent is currently at -2 AC vs him. Rogue B applies Debilitating Blow: Bewildered as well. Does the opponent now have -6 AC versus each character? If you have 4 rogues in a party, does that mean you can give an opponent -10 AC in total against each of the rogues using this same method?
Scenario 2: Same setup as Scenario 1, except Rogue B decides to apply Debilitating Blow: Disoriented. Does the opponent now have -2 AC + -4 Attack against Rogue B and -4 AC + -2 Attack against Rogue A?
Relevant Text:
At 4th level, whenever a rogue deals sneak attack damage to a foe, she can also debilitate the target of her attack, causing it to take a penalty for 1 round (this is in addition to any penalty caused by a rogue talent or other special ability). The rogue can choose to apply any one of the following penalties when the damage is dealt.
Bewildered: The target becomes bewildered, taking a –2 penalty to AC. The target takes an additional –2 penalty to AC against all attacks made by the rogue. At 10th level and 16th level, the penalty to AC against attacks made by the rogue increases by –2 (to a total maximum of –8).
Disoriented: The target takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls. In addition, the target takes an additional –2 penalty on all attack rolls it makes against the rogue. At 10th level and 16th level, the penalty on attack rolls made against the rogue increases by –2 (to a total maximum of –8).
Hampered: All of the target’s speeds are reduced by half (to a minimum of 5 feet). In addition, the target cannot take a 5-foot step.
These penalties do not stack with themselves, but additional attacks that deal sneak attack damage extend the duration by 1 round. A creature cannot suffer from more than one penalty from this ability at a time. If a new penalty is applied, the old penalty immediately ends. Any form of healing applied to a target suffering from one of these penalties also removes the penalty.
I am mainly worried about the bolded parts.
It could be that the penalties aren't supposed to stack together, but it seems more likely that you aren't able to, for instance, stack Hampered over and over.
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No... that would be disgusting. Every party would have a three rogue strike team.
Can you quote any FAQ or rules text to explain why different rogues' abilities wouldn't work?
If it wouldn't work, what would happen in Case 1 and Case 2?
In Case 2, would Rogue B's debilitating injury replace Rogue A's debilitating injury? That wouldn't seem fair to Rogue A who now loses his AC bonus from his own ability.
To me it seems like the rules are written to allow injuries from different rogues to stack but not from the same rogue. Two separate abilities from two separate characters, each of which cannot stack with itself. Otherwise characters and parties would constantly be in conflict and the game would be taking away reward for smart combat decisions from the individual player because of the stupidity of a different player (As in a player who knows that he needs to lower the AC of an opponent for himself applies Bewildered, just to have another rogue come buy and apply Hampered so that the original rogue loses his bonus)
You can never stack anything of the same source.
In this case, Debilitating Injury would be a source. Even though different rogues might attempt the debilitating injury, they cannot stack.
It would be a bit like it different casting (from different wizards) of haste stacked to grant extra attacks. It simply doesn't work because the source is Haste.
In this case, Debilitating Injury is it's own source.
So would I be correct then that in Case 2, Rogue B would override Rogue A and make his debilitation useless?You can never stack anything of the same source.
In this case, Debilitating Injury would be a source. Even though different rogues might attempt the debilitating injury, they cannot stack.
Yes
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You can never stack anything of the same source.
In this case, Debilitating Injury would be a source. Even though different rogues might attempt the debilitating injury, they cannot stack.
Different rogues can all pick the same debilitating injury and stack durations, but they won't increase the penalties (and they can't pick different ones). However, if more than one rogue is contributing to the duration, I asked Jason who counts as "the rogue" for the purpose of the bigger penalty, and he said all of them do, each using their own personal bigger penalty if they aren't the same.
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Different rogues can all pick the same debilitating injury and stack durations, but they won't increase the penalties (and they can't pick different ones). However, if more than one rogue is contributing to the duration, I asked Jason who counts as "the rogue" for the purpose of the bigger penalty, and he said all of them do, each using their own personal bigger penalty if they aren't the same.You can never stack anything of the same source.
In this case, Debilitating Injury would be a source. Even though different rogues might attempt the debilitating injury, they cannot stack.
That makes a lot more sense, you should issue an FAQ about that. Because without these statements, by the rules we have that wouldn't be how it works.
Just because they are different rogues does not make them different abilities. It is the same ability, simply from a different source. The bold text specifically says that they can not have multiple penalties at the same time. You clearly see that this is an issue in the rules as written, because you put it in bold. You worries are accurate. You can not stack multiple debilitating injuries of any sort from yourself or other sources. Don't need to cite anything because it is written in the ability.
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You can never stack anything of the same source.
In this case, Debilitating Injury would be a source. Even though different rogues might attempt the debilitating injury, they cannot stack.
Isn't the rogue the source? Therefore the two debilitating injuries are coming from two different sources? I just feel like ruling that way wouldn't make sense as far as player interaction would go. Everyone would constantly be screwing the other person over.
Can someone explain how Case 1 and Case 2 would work then/
In Case 1, would Rogue B just extend Rogue A's debilitation by more rounds? (Since they are the same source?) Who gets the -4 bonus in that case? Both of them? The most recent one who struck? The one who initially applied the injury, and who's "source" is being extended?
EDIT: Was writing this before I saw Mark's post
Just because they are different rogues does not make them different abilities. It is the same ability, simply from a different source. The bold text specifically says that they can not have multiple penalties at the same time. You clearly see that this is an issue in the rules as written, because you put it in bold. You worries are accurate. You can not stack multiple debilitating injuries of any sort from yourself or other sources. Don't need to cite anything because it is written in the ability.
While not completely wrong, read Mark Seifter's comment above. It does allow for a kind of stacking, in the sense that the rogues can increase the duration and each rogue can benefit from their own personal increased bonuses if a target has the conditioned (and they successful apply an attack with debilitating injury).
But without Mark's statement, we couldn't know that to be the case and the situation the OP was worried about could happen with one rogue's bonus being snatched by another.
However, it is still possible that if the rogue's don't play nicely that they could attempt to apply different kinds of debilitating strikes and invalidate the previous one.
That makes a lot more sense, you should issue an FAQ about that. Because without these statements, by the rules we have that wouldn't be how it works.Different rogues can all pick the same debilitating injury and stack durations, but they won't increase the penalties (and they can't pick different ones). However, if more than one rogue is contributing to the duration, I asked Jason who counts as "the rogue" for the purpose of the bigger penalty, and he said all of them do, each using their own personal bigger penalty if they aren't the same.You can never stack anything of the same source.
In this case, Debilitating Injury would be a source. Even though different rogues might attempt the debilitating injury, they cannot stack.
The rules we have are ambiguous; that's why I had to go ask Jason when I saw them. For now, there's my unofficial messageboard post to reveal intent. This will need more FAQ clicks to become a FAQ though. Part of getting a FAQ every week is that it makes it feel more like an internalized weekly routine and responsibility and makes it easier to get everyone to work on 'em, but part of that deal is we don't do more. As easy as this one is to make (since I have a strong suspicion that Jason will say the same thing again, and we'll all agree), I can't replace a more frequently asked question for this one.
The rules we have are ambiguous; that's why I had to go ask Jason when I saw them. For now, there's my unofficial messageboard post to reveal intent. This will need more FAQ clicks to become a FAQ though. Part of getting a FAQ every week is that it makes it feel more like an internalized weekly routine and responsibility and makes it easier to get everyone to work on 'em, but part of that deal is we don't do more. As easy as this one is to make (since I have a strong suspicion that Jason will say the same thing again, and we'll all agree), I can't replace a more frequently asked question for this one.
We'll, I've done my part then.
Everybody hit FAQ so we can make this "official".
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Just because they are different rogues does not make them different abilities. It is the same ability, simply from a different source. The bold text specifically says that they can not have multiple penalties at the same time. You clearly see that this is an issue in the rules as written, because you put it in bold. You worries are accurate. You can not stack multiple debilitating injuries of any sort from yourself or other sources. Don't need to cite anything because it is written in the ability.While not completely wrong, read Mark Seifter's comment above. It does allow for a kind of stacking, in the sense that the rogues can increase the duration and each rogue can benefit from their own personal increased bonuses if a target has the conditioned (and they successful apply an attack with debilitating injury).
But without Mark's statement, we couldn't know that to be the case and the situation the OP was worried about could happen with one rogue's bonus being snatched by another.
However, it is still possible that if the rogue's don't play nicely that they could attempt to apply different kinds of debilitating strikes and invalidate the previous one.
Yeah, if they don't play nicely, they can mess with each other, but if they do play nicely...well, they can pretty easily get those penalties to stick, even without an iterative or TWF. Beware coordinated teams of bandits!
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The rules we have are ambiguous; that's why I had to go ask Jason when I saw them. For now, there's my unofficial messageboard post to reveal intent. This will need more FAQ clicks to become a FAQ though. Part of getting a FAQ every week is that it makes it feel more like an internalized weekly routine and responsibility and makes it easier to get everyone to work on 'em, but part of that deal is we don't do more. As easy as this one is to make (since I have a strong suspicion that Jason will say the same thing again, and we'll all agree), I can't replace a more frequently asked question for this one.That makes a lot more sense, you should issue an FAQ about that. Because without these statements, by the rules we have that wouldn't be how it works.Different rogues can all pick the same debilitating injury and stack durations, but they won't increase the penalties (and they can't pick different ones). However, if more than one rogue is contributing to the duration, I asked Jason who counts as "the rogue" for the purpose of the bigger penalty, and he said all of them do, each using their own personal bigger penalty if they aren't the same.You can never stack anything of the same source.
In this case, Debilitating Injury would be a source. Even though different rogues might attempt the debilitating injury, they cannot stack.
Off topic from this original post, but do you have any "unofficial messageboard post" to reveal intent (or just your opinion) on 1.5x Dex to damage when two-handing an Elven Curve Blade? That post has over a hundred FAQ posts I think and no one completely agrees on it. (I'm in favor of 1.5x Dex) lol
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Off topic from this original post, but do you have any "unofficial messageboard post" to reveal intent (or just your opinion) on 1.5x Dex to damage when two-handing an Elven Curve Blade? That post has over a hundred FAQ posts I think and no one completely agrees on it. (I'm in favor of 1.5x Dex) lolThe rules we have are ambiguous; that's why I had to go ask Jason when I saw them. For now, there's my unofficial messageboard post to reveal intent. This will need more FAQ clicks to become a FAQ though. Part of getting a FAQ every week is that it makes it feel more like an internalized weekly routine and responsibility and makes it easier to get everyone to work on 'em, but part of that deal is we don't do more. As easy as this one is to make (since I have a strong suspicion that Jason will say the same thing again, and we'll all agree), I can't replace a more frequently asked question for this one.That makes a lot more sense, you should issue an FAQ about that. Because without these statements, by the rules we have that wouldn't be how it works.Different rogues can all pick the same debilitating injury and stack durations, but they won't increase the penalties (and they can't pick different ones). However, if more than one rogue is contributing to the duration, I asked Jason who counts as "the rogue" for the purpose of the bigger penalty, and he said all of them do, each using their own personal bigger penalty if they aren't the same.You can never stack anything of the same source.
In this case, Debilitating Injury would be a source. Even though different rogues might attempt the debilitating injury, they cannot stack.
If I have my druthers, you won't need one for long...but I wouldn't count on that, since it requires a mystical alignment of the ducks.
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Yeah, if they don't play nicely, they can mess with each other, but if they do play nicely...well, they can pretty easily get those penalties to stick, even without an iterative or TWF. Beware coordinated teams of bandits!Just because they are different rogues does not make them different abilities. It is the same ability, simply from a different source. The bold text specifically says that they can not have multiple penalties at the same time. You clearly see that this is an issue in the rules as written, because you put it in bold. You worries are accurate. You can not stack multiple debilitating injuries of any sort from yourself or other sources. Don't need to cite anything because it is written in the ability.While not completely wrong, read Mark Seifter's comment above. It does allow for a kind of stacking, in the sense that the rogues can increase the duration and each rogue can benefit from their own personal increased bonuses if a target has the conditioned (and they successful apply an attack with debilitating injury).
But without Mark's statement, we couldn't know that to be the case and the situation the OP was worried about could happen with one rogue's bonus being snatched by another.
However, it is still possible that if the rogue's don't play nicely that they could attempt to apply different kinds of debilitating strikes and invalidate the previous one.
That makes sense. Its good to know because me and my friends are all playing Unchained Rogue variant builds at Gen Con this year :)
That makes sense. Its good to know because me and my friends are all playing Unchained Rogue variant builds at Gen Con this year :)Yeah, if they don't play nicely, they can mess with each other, but if they do play nicely...well, they can pretty easily get those penalties to stick, even without an iterative or TWF. Beware coordinated teams of bandits!Just because they are different rogues does not make them different abilities. It is the same ability, simply from a different source. The bold text specifically says that they can not have multiple penalties at the same time. You clearly see that this is an issue in the rules as written, because you put it in bold. You worries are accurate. You can not stack multiple debilitating injuries of any sort from yourself or other sources. Don't need to cite anything because it is written in the ability.While not completely wrong, read Mark Seifter's comment above. It does allow for a kind of stacking, in the sense that the rogues can increase the duration and each rogue can benefit from their own personal increased bonuses if a target has the conditioned (and they successful apply an attack with debilitating injury).
But without Mark's statement, we couldn't know that to be the case and the situation the OP was worried about could happen with one rogue's bonus being snatched by another.
However, it is still possible that if the rogue's don't play nicely that they could attempt to apply different kinds of debilitating strikes and invalidate the previous one.
Oh, if you're actually going for something like that, here's my favorite advanced strategy: Once you discern the initiative order, consider having whoever goes right before the big bad switch over your debilitation from AC to attack bonus or no-five-foot steps with her last attack. Then, after the big bad has to deal with the penalties that matter on its own turn, the next rogue puts the AC penalty right back on!
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Oh, if you're actually going for something like that, here's my favorite advanced strategy: Once you discern the initiative order, consider having whoever goes right before the big bad switch over your debilitation from AC to attack bonus or no-five-foot steps with her last attack. Then, after the big bad has to deal with the penalties that matter on its own turn,...That makes sense. Its good to know because me and my friends are all playing Unchained Rogue variant builds at Gen Con this year :)Yeah, if they don't play nicely, they can mess with each other, but if they do play nicely...well, they can pretty easily get those penalties to stick, even without an iterative or TWF. Beware coordinated teams of bandits!Just because they are different rogues does not make them different abilities. It is the same ability, simply from a different source. The bold text specifically says that they can not have multiple penalties at the same time. You clearly see that this is an issue in the rules as written, because you put it in bold. You worries are accurate. You can not stack multiple debilitating injuries of any sort from yourself or other sources. Don't need to cite anything because it is written in the ability.While not completely wrong, read Mark Seifter's comment above. It does allow for a kind of stacking, in the sense that the rogues can increase the duration and each rogue can benefit from their own personal increased bonuses if a target has the conditioned (and they successful apply an attack with debilitating injury).
But without Mark's statement, we couldn't know that to be the case and the situation the OP was worried about could happen with one rogue's bonus being snatched by another.
However, it is still possible that if the rogue's don't play nicely that they could attempt to apply different kinds of debilitating strikes and invalidate the previous one.
Thats a really good idea. So far we have
Tengu Monk (Unchained) 1 / Rogue (Unchained) 4
-Unarmed Strikes and Natural Attack Nonlethal Build
Tengu Cavalier (Emissary) 1 / Rogue (Unchained,Scout,Swashbuckler) 4
-Riding and Charging on a wolf companion with spirited charge
Tengu Gunslinger 1 / Rogue (Unchained,Rake) 4
-Intimidating and Gun Twirling Pistol User
Tengu Inquisitor/Rogue mix (don't remember how his build was exactly)
Tengu Magus 2 / Rouge (Unchained,Counterfeit Mage) 3
-Shocking Grasp + Wand Wielder
I'm excited. We should be 6th or 7th level with these characters by Gen Con. We are all Tengus calling ourselves the "Murder Hobos". Make sure you look for us! Haha
The rules we have are ambiguous; that's why I had to go ask Jason when I saw them. For now, there's my unofficial messageboard post to reveal intent. This will need more FAQ clicks to become a FAQ though. Part of getting a FAQ every week is that it makes it feel more like an internalized weekly routine and responsibility and makes it easier to get everyone to work on 'em, but part of that deal is we don't do more. As easy as this one is to make (since I have a strong suspicion that Jason will say the same thing again, and we'll all agree), I can't replace a more frequently asked question for this one.That makes a lot more sense, you should issue an FAQ about that. Because without these statements, by the rules we have that wouldn't be how it works.Different rogues can all pick the same debilitating injury and stack durations, but they won't increase the penalties (and they can't pick different ones). However, if more than one rogue is contributing to the duration, I asked Jason who counts as "the rogue" for the purpose of the bigger penalty, and he said all of them do, each using their own personal bigger penalty if they aren't the same.You can never stack anything of the same source.
In this case, Debilitating Injury would be a source. Even though different rogues might attempt the debilitating injury, they cannot stack.
A little late here, but do you keep a list of these "quick FAQs" that you could pull out if you ever needed to have a FAQ and you didn't have time for the one you were planning on answering?
Mark, since you chimed in on this:
Why wouldn't this ability be classified the same as the Evil Eye Hex for a witch?
Because Debilitating Injury has extremely different wording than the evil eye hex. The evil eye hex FAQ specifically allows all the different "sub-hex" versions of itself active at once; debilitating injury specifically disallows multiples.
I read the disallowing multiplies to mean no stacking Hindered over and over instead of no Hindered and Bewildered though, which makes sense. Why can't a team of three people working together screw one target over?
Can multiples casters no longer cast bestow curse on the same target for different curses?
Different rogues can all pick the same debilitating injury and stack durations, but they won't increase the penalties (and they can't pick different ones). However, if more than one rogue is contributing to the duration, I asked Jason who counts as "the rogue" for the purpose of the bigger penalty, and he said all of them do, each using their own personal bigger penalty if they aren't the same.You can never stack anything of the same source.
In this case, Debilitating Injury would be a source. Even though different rogues might attempt the debilitating injury, they cannot stack.
So what would happen in spy vs spy where flanking rogues each wanted a different debilitating injury? First come first served? Rogue A would have his duration with B's waiting in the Que?
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I like that: "A Murder of Murder Hobos" ... I'll have to bring that up to the guysShouldn't that be Murder of Hobos?
Or a Murder of Murder Hobos.
** spoiler omitted **
For bonus points, make this pun after the party gets hit with some baleful polymorph spells that turn them into ravens.
For bonus points, make this pun after the party gets hit with some baleful polymorph spells that turn them into ravens.
I like that: "A Murder of Murder Hobos" ... I'll have to bring that up to the guys
Or just have an all tengu party