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...lots of useful stuff, plus an example build that costs...(snipped costs):
169,555 (since APs include WBL in all dropped loot, the Sihedron ring counts towards WBL, even though it's a drop)There's a ludicrous jump in WBL; a 12th-level character at WBL in an AP (which is a rare thing in and of itself) is only at 108,000, and couldn't afford this stuff even getting the ring for free. It's not until 15th level that WBL really facilitates having a lot of +5 items, and the kids aren't there yet.
Well, Dawning Aegis did ask how someone ended up with such a high armor class. At least I assume they were asking on that as I don't consider 29 to be especially high given the endgame opponents were able to hit the cleric on a 5 with melee attacks that fortunately were out of range.
To be honest, I'd even just suggest two items. If you go with a +3 Amulet of Natural Armor and a +3 Ring of Protection, that's 36K gold. I'd actually suggest going with 32K initially and springing for a +4 Ring or +4 Amulet, and then save up for the second one to get the armor up even further (together that's a +8 to armor and you don't really need to splurge further.)
What they really need is an Oracle or Cleric... and then specialize with Buffs. Bless gives a blanket +1 to hit. Prayer adds +1 to hit and damage, and hits foes with a -1 to hit and damage. With Mass Bull's Strength, everyone in the group gains a +4 to Strength (assuming they don't have a belt that improves strength), while Mass Owl's Wisdom boosts everyone's Wisdom by +4 and thus Will Saves by +2 (as most wouldn't bother boosting Wisdom with items). Little buffs like that can really help.
Even lower-level buffs can be useful - an Extended Bull Strength is a level 3 spell and for a level 5 caster lasts 10 minutes. At level 10, you're seeing a 20-minute spell which is good for a planned raid against a group of fairly nasty foes. Hell, a Sorcerer makes for an excellent buff specialist as well with the Extend Spell Feat. You don't even need a high Charisma - a 16 would allow for the more potent Buff spells. You could even dip two levels into Ranger just to get weapons and Precise Shot so you can contribute to combat if you *really* felt the need to contribute to fighting. ;)
Mostly these are just thoughts for future campaigns. Your crew is still learning after all, so maybe next year when they finish off the Big Bad of this campaign, someone will consider playing a full caster... and how buffs can help them do better against their foes. :)
That and the importance of investing in good armor. ;)
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Preaching to the choir, my friend. My 10th-level Life Oracle wouldn't go into combat at under a 36 (two Magic Vestments and a Shield of Faith work wonders). At 5th level my rogue was dancing around the battlefield at 28. Our Jade Regent crowd sport ACs of 40+ around the table. So yeah, the party's aversion to AC is a bit baffling.
Voren does have Barkskin, and there's an occasional Protection from Evil floating about, but for the most part all their money's going towards rezzes and scrolls. I've added around 150k-200k in extra loot already, and it all evaporated (again).
I figure once they finish the snake fortress I'll do another leveling.
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Preaching to the choir, my friend. My 10th-level Life Oracle wouldn't go into combat at under a 36 (two Magic Vestments and a Shield of Faith work wonders). At 5th level my rogue was dancing around the battlefield at 28. Our Jade Regent crowd sport ACs of 40+ around the table. So yeah, the party's aversion to AC is a bit baffling.
Voren does have Barkskin, and there's an occasional Protection from Evil floating about, but for the most part all their money's going towards rezzes and scrolls. I've added around 150k-200k in extra loot already, and it all evaporated (again).
I figure once they finish the snake fortress I'll do another leveling.
I'm not part of the choir, and it's kind of hard to grasp how you get that high of an AC, let alone have enough room to provide other resources to the party after that. Tanget's item suggestions only give +6, and the only way I see us actually getting anywhere is new party members. That would require players to willingly give up their characters.
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I'm not part of the choir, and it's kind of hard to grasp how you get that high of an AC, let alone have enough room to provide other resources to the party after that. Tanget's item suggestions only give +6, and the only way I see us actually getting anywhere is new party members. That would require players to willingly give up their characters.Preaching to the choir, my friend. My 10th-level Life Oracle wouldn't go into combat at under a 36 (two Magic Vestments and a Shield of Faith work wonders). At 5th level my rogue was dancing around the battlefield at 28. Our Jade Regent crowd sport ACs of 40+ around the table. So yeah, the party's aversion to AC is a bit baffling.
Voren does have Barkskin, and there's an occasional Protection from Evil floating about, but for the most part all their money's going towards rezzes and scrolls. I've added around 150k-200k in extra loot already, and it all evaporated (again).
I figure once they finish the snake fortress I'll do another leveling.
Malek: Currently AC 20 because he has spent nothing on defense.
Barkskin from Voren: +5Shield of Faith from Athelya (if she has it): +3
Magic Vestment from Athelya (if she has it): +3
Cat's Grace from Voren: +2
Haste from Voren: +1
Our little froggy is now at a far-more-respectable 34.
So, I took 10 minutes to do a little research:
Malek is a fantastic example of what's wrong with the group. Impus Major has trusted Bacon Boy with loot distribution. Malek's total worth is 64,800 gp, or just about 1/3 where he should be on the WBL tables, and almost half of that wealth (31,840) is in his weapon (which Bacon Boy made him buy) and 10,800 worth of Deathblade poison, which is useless to a character whose main weapon is a bludgeoning weapon.
He's still in a plain non-magical masterwork breastplate, a Ring of Protection +1, and an Amulet of Natural Armor +1. Since Malek has never had any money to spend, his gear is crap.
There's a reason that the "standard" method is, "Take the wealth, divide by n+1, and let the party spend their own money". (The +1 is for a party fund for rezzes, wands, and the like.) Malek's wealth is so low as to render him ineffective. And Impus Major had no say in that poverty. Hooken, who is more "important", is at a far-more-reasonable 133,000 total wealth, because he is deemed more worth having gear.
But overall, it's exactly what I said in my previous post: In Books 1 and 2, you got most of the loot. In Book 3 you got 118,000, which sounds about right. But in Book 4 you only got 122,000. I'm guessing that's maybe 25% of the wealth available in that book; you're hundreds of thousands short because people didn't want to fight the "hard" fights, and the fights are only getting harder because you're so under-geared. Casters can make up for a lack of gear with Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, and so forth, but your casters would rather get spells that go "Boom!".
So my recommendation is:
Anyway, good luck! I hadn't realized just how poverty-stricken you guys were until I looked for an example to counter Malek, and found that you're ALL poor. You need to stop Bacon Boy from buying (and using) so many disposables. I knew it was bad. I didn't know it was this bad...
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NBH,
The rest of the players need to have a very stern talking-to with Bacon Boy in light of the above evidence. Such willful buggery of the rest of the group's characters is utter nonsense.
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NBH,** spoiler omitted **
The rest of the players need to have a very stern talking-to with Bacon Boy in light of the above evidence. Such willful buggery of the rest of the group's characters is utter nonsense.
Well, what's really alarming to me is seeing just HOW far below WBL they are. I knew that they'd spent 100,000-200,000 on consumables (lots of rezzes and Restorations, quite a few scrolls of Teleport, Greater Teleport, and whatnot, but seeing that my 14th-level party's average wealth seems to be around 50,000 gp if you exclude Hooken, I've got to wonder: Where did all that loot go?
APs provide 2x WBL, then parties are supposed to miss a bunch, so most APs you see PCs around 3/4. This group is at 1/3. It just ain't natural.
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Yeah, it sounds like you have an ineffective treasure distributor. My group was lucky. Tongs was a "greedy" sort who insisted that even if your share of the treasure was a really really good magic item? You would still get a monetary prize as well. And he kept insisting on putting thousands and thousands of dollars into the Charity Fund that was used to build an orphanage, banks, and other things like that. Then again, he was also extremely talented at finding treasure, including stuff the goblins shoved in a privy. I trust him when he states he didn't cheat on that (though I do know he looked up some foes online which is why I started renaming enemies) but even with his being generous to the charity funds and building up infrastructure, up until level 15 the party was probably above APW.
After they reached Xin Shalast though they never left and only used loot they found rather than go back to spend money... and a lot of stuff was untouched. (It also helps I refused to let them sell giant-sized equipment. That probably lowered the amount they were raking in at times.)
Given the party size? If you're able to finish off the Fortress? Splurge on the two +4 items I suggested. Hell, you might consider going for broke and spending 100,000 gold for the two +5 versions. Also, look at the loot you're taking in and USE some of it.
And if someone dies? Recommend having them roll up a new character and perhaps NobodysHome will have some same-level prisoners in cells and squirreled-away magic items in a prison chest, and HAVE SOMEONE RUN A CLERIC OR WIZARD. At this point, a 12th level Wizard would do some serious harm to enemies. If they focus on buffing your group and defense? They could *really* help you guys out (seriously, Communal Protection from Elements, Mass Cat's Grace, Mass Bear's Endurance, Mass Owl's Wisdom... hell, add in an Extend Spell and cast them as 7th level spells and they'd last half an hour!) without needing to use splashy offensive spells.
Oh, and here's the fun thing. Invisibility doesn't go away if you casts non-combat spells. You can have an invisible Wizard constantly buffing folk and being ignored in combat! You could have a Cleric with points put in Use Magic Device and a Wand of Invisibility or hell, a Ring of Invisibility, and run around healing people and remaining under the radar!
Not that I'm recommending any of you guys deliberately get killed off. But you're going into a heavily-defended region with enemies that can easily spread an alarm and has significant ability to overpower you. Hit-and-run is likely going to be your best bet. And sadly most adventuring groups don't do hit-and-run. ^^;;
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Impus Major has trusted Bacon Boy with loot distribution...
Wait, I thought I was Bacon Boy...
The reason I bring this up is because I don't manage the funds. I opted for consumables because at times it seemed like we needed them.
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Impus Major has trusted Bacon Boy with loot distribution...Wait, I thought I was Bacon Boy...
The reason I bring this up is because I don't manage the funds. I opted for consumables because at times it seemed like we needed them.
No; Voren's player is Bacon Boy, and he and Athelya's player both take a very strong hand in how loot is distributed. Unfortunately, throughout Book 4 he took a, "This is the party pool" approach where every last gold piece you found went to a "group fund", which was then spent freely whenever they felt the party really needed something. The problem is, basic PCs need basic gear upgrades, just like in any other game, or they need spells to make up for that shortfall.
Here are the raw numbers for you:
A few things are really striking
- Not a single one of you is carrying any reasonable amount of cash. That's a good sign that wealth isn't being distributed properly
- Hooken has more than twice the wealth of anyone else, and that's because I gave him Stoneslayer as an add-on. So there's a good reason Hooken is the most effective/destructive in combat
- I've been upping drops by 50% since Book 1, meaning you really only have about half of what I'd expect. I know you missed a lot in Books 3 and 4 (entire regions unexplored; no time spent doing research at all, etc.), but I still can't explain the huge disparity between expectations and where you are.
As everyone's said, it'll all be fixed by the end of the fortress. But until then, you need to stop using a "community pool" of funds that's only used to buy scrolls, potions, material components, and other items that provide no long-term benefits to the party, but just short-term one-off fixes.
A good example was all those scrolls of Life Bubble. You guys spent 9,000 gp on scrolls of Life Bubble alone before Athelya finally took it. And I know you've spent over 60,000 on rezzes when you could have brought in new PCs (I just checked, and Athelya is at 15,000 personally on that list). And so forth.
Just lots and lots and LOTS of consumables, all made possible by a community pool of wealth that is never used to buy gear for anyone unless it's determined that some piece of gear is "good for the entire group".
It's... not working well.
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There is a moderate necessity for consumables, budgeting about 10% of the loot that is taken in is a good rule-of-thumb for party-helpful stuff. M components, resurrection scrolls, et al. The rest of the loot should be about evenly divided between the characters.
In general I advise this:
In-game loot that is in the "too good to pass up for Character [x]" simply gets assigned to that character.
Sum up the rest at sale-value pricing and skim 10% off the top for 'group funds'.
Divide the remainder evenly.
Example for my group this past session. 10th level group, 4 characters: 2-handed warhammer barbarian, dual kukri switch-hitting slayer and two Tiny flying gnome spellcasters (Sorcerer and Witch).
Too good to pass up loot:
A belt of giant strength +4, several potions of cure wounds and a ring of foe focus.
The slayer got the +4 belt, the barbarian kept the ring and the two of them divvied the potions between them as they have no other method to heal or administer healing. The two Tiny flying gnomes can use scrolls, wands et al, so communal funds are typically spent on diamond dust, scrolls and wands of healing and a variety of utility scrolls with the intent of benefiting the group in both "Buffs" and curatives.
The rest of the loot repaid the barbarian's "money owed" to the gnomes from previous sessions whilst evenly divided amongst us all to allow for some small gear upgrades.
NBH, at this juncture, have you considered implementing Automatic Bonus Progression for this group? Cut their loot in half and you don't have to worry about the group's bonuses being out-of-whack any more.
As an aside, my group has long dispensed with the item creation feats as being required to be taken (other than Craft Construct). If you meet the requirements (such as via Master Craftsman, Master Alchemist or an alchemist's Alchemy/bonus Brew Potion), you can make the stuff.
We have just implemented using a google docs pathfinder autofill sheet - currently on v6.2 - by darthmarth28 from Reddit. The series of sheets handle most of the headaches of handling characters and include a Party XP/Loot sheet that has a "GM Cheat Sheet" tab.
This last is of great value as the characters' sheets can be set up to toggle on/off various buffs/effects/spells that, courtesy of the wonders of sharing permissions, let the GM see *exactly* what every character's hp, AC/CMD, saves, skills, DR, resists and other information is as fast as the documents can share the information - which is pretty fast. They're free, and those with spreadsheet-fu of significance can probably make them better than they already are, although they are pretty darn good as-is.
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Sounds like your system and our (functional) one are very similar; we just do 20% for consumables instead of 10%.
I *could* track all the PCs in Hero Labs (same functionality and we have plenty of licenses), but managing a group of 6 teenagers is hard enough without added administravia -- that's why I offered to co-GM with Impus Minor for our next campaign. He'd handle the interactions and story, and I'd do the nitty-gritty number crunching.
I figure the fortress is the ideal place to just make sure the loot works out. It's already ludicrously rich; adding a few hundred thousand extra gold won't even be noticeable.
But I do want to see them work out a good approach to handling the fortress. They're young, they're learning the ins and outs of playing RPGs, and I think this is a great challenge for them. I know how I'd do it given their resources, so I know it can be done, but I want to see how THEY do it.
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They are awfully far behind the expected curve, as you pointed out.
This is shaping up to be a tough learning experience.
It will be interesting to see if they're willing to step up to the challenge away from the table. Time out-of-game networking with each other over pizza and sodas to hash out their options and formulating several possible plans should be doable (barring factors I don't know about).
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All I’m saying is that if they didn’t want the game economy to be broken, why would they break it for us?!
Jokes aside, I love many of the changes that PF made as an attempt at balance, though Indont agree that they achieved their stated end-goal, and I don’t even think it was an end-goal in need of acquiring... at least not in the manner it was done. I think the real failure was in realizing that at 11-13 level, full casters can alter reality in ways that are fundamental to how storytelling is done. I think if the game had worked toward accepting this paradigm, it would have helped in their rules development; story-telling, and general games design. I think they’ve done about the best job possible with the design goals they’re aiming for (and most certainly better than I would have, under the same restrictions and circumstances), but I think the trend toward “fiddly bits” and “over-specificity” was a bit of a mistake, as it paints them into a corner in adventure and story design that can only be exited by more fiddly rules.
I have no problem with phenomenal cosmic power, but I think it’s important to acknowledge that is what you’re dealing with.
The wall of iron “trick” for better or worse already existed (as did others like it) and instead of embracing that, a long trend of slightly-odd “out of game” nerfs began with that and similar changes, and has continued into an embittering trend to this day.
All those harsh words aside, though (because it does sound more harsh than I intend - look, words’re haaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrd, y’all - I believe that many of the design principles have actively improved the game, or at least the idea behind it - placing CR behind “target numbers” instead of “target hit dice” was rather well thought out, for example (even if it falls off at later levels). Also hanging a single CMB/D is a great idea, though I’d have recommended making it easier to access.
Also, I love the idea - and many of the specifics! - of mythic, and find it gets a much maligned reputation that is undeserved. The main issues with mythic for me is the ever-depending gap/wall between PC rules and “monster” rules (never something I’m fond of) in the separation between tiers and ranks, and the complete and utter disregard for parity while still not succeeding at specific flavor within many mythic abilities. As an example, sure it’s nice that my sneak attacks get more consistent damage, but I don’t really care, when I can take that ooooorrrrrrrr cast literally any spell on my list. Similarly, not auto failing on a 1 attack sure is keen; that’s maybe less interesting than making literally everyone who would be indifferent or better friendly or better. Jumping really, really far sure is cool. Too bad I can’t do anything else with that.
Example: Hey, I can lift more! ... or I could get either a first level spell or the belt I’d normally get. But I can stack these by taking it again! ... or I could make a full attack against touch AC. Nothing wrong with mule’s strength, but it doesn’t feel very mythic. Heck, for that matter, just getting to attack flat-footed AC doesn’t feel that mythic - it feels useful, but not AMAZING.
Example: Hey, I can get lotsa followers! ... OR I could get lots of followers AND a cohort. ... OR I could just take a feat. Crusader and Loyalty are cool and all, but for what they do, I have better and easier options (though I admit that Loyalty comes with bells and whistles missing from Leadership). It feels like I should have more from my mythic abilities than a single feat - even a great one. And I love Crusader! (One day... one day I will achieve the dream of a Crusader/Loyalty/Leadership/Noble Scion infinite leadership loop... which technically only requires Noble Scion, but still...)
And, NH, I gotta say - Unchained isn’t really MOAR POWAH - monks and rogues get a boost (sort of), but barbarians and summoners are solidly nerfed, while the rest is mostly, “hey here is an optional way to run your game!” Martial feats/stamina is nice, but it’s hardly overwhelming, by most reports. It’s by and large more balanced than any of the Unearthed Arcanas from previous editions.
And here is a post that’s been sitting here on my phone for days. I need to link this when I get around to answering TS’ query in FaWtL!
Okay, guys.
Look.
It’s timentomhave this talk.
Have one person - doesn’t matter who - take Craft Wonderus Item.
Give them one (or two, depending on NH’s interpretation) scroll of create greater demiplane; one scroll of time stop, and make a timeless demiplane with respect to magic, then cast the timestop.
Have them sit, twiddling their thumbs making profession checks (maybe give ‘em a ring of sustenance or something) for however many eons it takes, and then have them turn that around and plug in the value earned for crafting an at-will (or, heck, 2/week) reincarnate item. It is a sentient item (doesn’t matter what, but something like a tiny animate ioun stone with telepathy, continuous greater invisibility and forced quiet, and greater teleport at will, and ranks in stealth) with a special purpose of returning the lot of you - your specific, names group, including Malak’s lost friends - to life each time you die. If you want, give it continuous foresight and status on the connected, maybe the option to expand the list of those covered, but guards against any who become evil from using its services or something. Upgrade to cyclic reincarnation if you want.
What profession? Doesn’t matter. Maybe, “profession (esoteric value for use in ritual crafting of magical items, later; representing no potable wealth, this is literally just one long ritual using mechanics, also too long a name and acronym)” (or “profession (evfuircomil;rnpwtiljolrumatlanaa)” for short) or something similar approved by NH.
After years of doing this nonsense (or six seconds to everyone else) you reappear, shiny new invisible rock in tow, aged terribly, but that’s irrelevant because the first time you die, you’ll be brought back in a young vigorous body (which might even be your own, if you splurged on cyclic reincarnation).
Give rock an easy way to take a bit of your dead flesh (like a knife or shank or something) so it can pop in, claim a sliver, and get out of dodge, rez you, and send you right back in.
Scrolls are awesome. They are awesome because you DON’T SPEND EVERY COLOER ON THEM.
Hey, NH, QQ: what ever happened to
Was she ever killed?
Also what hours/days do you play, and do you accept phone-based players... no response, just ass king.
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the suck up us from earlier
Was she ever killed?
Also what hours/days do you play, and do you accept phone-based players... no response, just ass king.
Really, TL's phone? Really??
We play Wednesday nights from 6:30 - 9:00 pm, though as you've seen as we get towards the end of the school year the nights get fewer and farther between. Mr. Stereotype and his dad do a LOT of travel during the summer (I think he does a whole summer quarter of school in Germany), so we start getting a lot of "interesting" sessions.
My hope is to wrap up Serpent's Skull before the kids graduate, but they're going to need to crack this serpentfolk fortress nut first...
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Well, it still beats the every 3-4 weeks my group did. After the second Book I cut out Random Encounters almost entirely and Book 6 I eliminated anything tangential to the main plot just so the group could finish this. And even doing that still took over a year. ^^;;
Of course your group also meets in person. In some ways that is better than over the internet. At the very least you don't have to worry about one player being an hour late showing up online habitually. And your group is big enough that you can start without a latecomer. (I assume your group calls if they're running late or have to bail.)
heh. I'm still tempted to run another campaign. Or two. While I really want to wait for Pathfinder 2 to come out first (seeing that the action system alone is superior to Pathfinder 1's "move action/standard action/swift action/immediate action/free action" shtick) there's also the sense of fun from running a game. *sigh* Ah well. I'll run the Goblin modules next I suppose.
the suck up us from earlier
Was she ever killed?
Also what hours/days do you play, and do you accept phone-based players... no response, just ass king.
Really, TL's phone? Really??
We play Wednesday nights from 6:30 - 9:00 pm, though as you've seen as we get towards the end of the school year the nights get fewer and farther between. Mr. Stereotype and his dad do a LOT of travel during the summer (I think he does a whole summer quarter of school in Germany), so we start getting a lot of "interesting" sessions.
My hope is to wrap up Serpent's Skull before the kids graduate, but they're going to need to crack this serpentfolk fortress nut first...
My phone manages to guess “such is” and “no reason” and “asking” entirely incorrectly.
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...dang it.
Sic unusual
Such us
Succumb is
Sucks I have
Such busy
Succinylcholine
What. The. Heck.
Blastula
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Succcubus
NOW it gets it.
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OK. Just updated the spreadsheets for books 3 and 4. If they sold every single item they found and didn't keep any (something I know isn't true), they'd have gotten 413,000 gp, or around 103,250 per PC for a 4-player party. They're supposed to end Book 4 at 11th level, so almost WBL on the nose.
Their total wealth right now is 392k, which doesn't seem much off until you ask, "Wait, what about Books 1 and 2?" and there's another 94k missing. Nor 18k from Book 5. Irwin's total worth before he left was only 15k.
So if you do the math, the kids have spent over a hundred thousand gold on consumables.
That's... not good...
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That's about spot-on for your 20% benchmark re: consumables, NBH...
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That's about spot-on for your 20% benchmark re: consumables, NBH...
That's for a party of 4. Remember I'm using n+1, so for them it should be closer to 14%. And that's for stuff in case of emergencies.
I like to point out that my life oracle ended Skull & Shackles with a scroll of Greater Planar Ally and 18,000 gp in diamond dust to be able to use it.
Since we ended the campaign at only 14th level, that was a "tac nuke" solution in case we needed it, but we never did. All our PCs still showed up as near WBL because they hadn't expended their "emergency consumables".
I'm saying these guys have expended over 100k; not stored up a bunch of scrolls, potions, and wands for emergencies. (My clerics always store up 20k in diamond dust, but it shows up as wealth for them.) I wouldn't be nearly as concerned if they'd only spent 8-10%. But they've spent almost 20%.
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That's about spot-on for your 20% benchmark re: consumables, NBH...That's for a party of 4. Remember I'm using n+1, so for them it should be closer to 14%. And that's for stuff in case of emergencies.
I like to point out that my life oracle ended Skull & Shackles with a scroll of Greater Planar Ally and 18,000 gp in diamond dust to be able to use it.
Since we ended the campaign at only 14th level, that was a "tac nuke" solution in case we needed it, but we never did. All our PCs still showed up as near WBL because they hadn't expended them.
I'm saying these guys have expended over 100k; not stored up a bunch of scrolls, potions, and wands for emergencies. (My clerics always store up 20k in diamond dust, but it shows up as wealth for them.)
Edit:
I would consider a 20th level character lugging around 88k in consumables a bit daft - 50k is a more reasonable expectation for most 20th level characters - let alone 176k simply because that is a lot of money that could be better served by way of uses/day items such as metamagic rods.
The current 'challenge' your players face at the moment is severely imbalanced permanent equipment distribution with little in the way of an easy solution. Massive loot awaits 'merit-based redistribution' ... provided they muster the ingenuity to seize it.
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Well, c'mon, we both know you're taking my initial example to the extremes, which is totally OK, 'cause Shiro does it to me all the time, but everything's "within reason".
At the start of a campaign, I take my character and make a list of "these are the consumables I'll need for this AP" and slowly start accumulating them. Once I have 'em all, I stop. I think my life oracle was at the very top of the list, and you're right, it was around 35-40k.
The trouble is, the kids aren't using any judgement at the moment, so they NEED some kind of formula to start working with...
...and unless we want to get into 4th-order polynomials, I don't think we'll find any kind of formula that applies well from 14th-20th level.
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Well, c'mon, we both know you're taking my initial example to the extremes, which is totally OK, 'cause Shiro does it to me all the time, but everything's "within reason".
At the start of a campaign, I take my character and make a list of "these are the consumables I'll need for this AP" and slowly start accumulating them. Once I have 'em all, I stop. I think my life oracle was at the very top of the list, and you're right, it was around 35-40k.
The trouble is, the kids aren't using any judgement at the moment, so they NEED some kind of formula to start working with...
...and unless we want to get into 4th-order polynomials, I don't think we'll find any kind of formula that applies well from 14th-20th level.
Fair enough. :)
That's a good approach NBH, one I don't usually use with most of my characters.
I'd be torn in your shoes. One the one paw, the players need to learn. On the other paw, one does not wish for their characters to get slaughtered solely because of underfunded gearing.
On a side note, are they able to talk with each other about the game between sessions, at least via phone? Speech remains the fastest way to communicate at the moment. Maybe they can get together in light of the information Dawning Aegis has learned here and in-game to cobble together a plan of action?
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Why do you think I'm posting? I'm at the table right now and they're actually working on some very good planning: What spells would be effective, how are we going to go in, etc.
I've been VERY happy to hear, "We're not bringing Bara or Heron", and, "If we summon a swarm of earth elementals to take up this passage...
Listening to 90 minutes of solid, intelligent planning from this group is actually quite a joy.
I hope the dice cooperate with their plan...
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10% into consumables for 14th+ level characters is generally sufficient in my experience until one has topped off all of the defenses. Once the "gear slots" are largely filled up to a character's satisfaction, then it gets interesting. *grins*
Depending on the character one's offensive power can easily be represented by a gaggle of consumables. Most non-casters tend to have fairly low reserves of such - although a sufficiently advanced UMD skill can swiftly alter that of course - whilst casters tend to have more. Some have much more as they don't deign to use such pithy items as weapons. *chuckling*
In a group learning the ropes while attempting to maintain relative gear-value-parity between all of the PCs, the percentage can get higher to account for covering the costs required for a resurrection or other method of not-being-dead-anymore, some restorations and a few pixie sticks of curing what ails me.
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Why do you think I'm posting? I'm at the table right now and they're actually working on some very good planning: What spells would be effective, how are we going to go in, etc.
I've been VERY happy to hear, "We're not bringing Bara or Heron", and, "If we summon a swarm of earth elementals to take up this passage...
Ooooh, that's right, tonight is game night. D'oh!
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In a group learning the ropes while attempting to maintain relative gear-value-parity between all of the PCs, the percentage can get higher to account for covering the costs required for a resurrection or other method of not-being-dead-anymore, some restorations and a few pixie sticks of curing what ails me.
Thanks. Just. Thanks. Now I have to create that.
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Well, were they Evil, they would be a big fan of Pixie Shots. Made from real pixies!
Pixie shots are pixies, sprites or other small fey, the tinier the less potent their 'fae magic' for this purpose. They're bound in cold iron chains - anathema to fey - and subject to the process of item creation without dying in the process. The result is a 'curative' that works on anything not a construct which is consumed by eating them or their insides in some sufficiently gruesome fashion.
A Diminutive fey might be a pixie shot of cure wounds, a Tiny fey might have enough 'juice' to roughly equate to a jar of Keoghtom's ointment or a restoration elixir whilst a Small fey could hold the equivalent of a heal, heroes' villainous feast or greater restoration. I had a death knight-style anti-paladin villain tending bar in a campaign once that had assorted pixie shots in 'shelves'. Top shelf pixie shots were tasty to those sorts...
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We played Runequest for many years (1978-1991), and one of the regular bar games in every campaign was "Pixie Darts".
Yep. Nail a real live pixie to the dart board and you've got a game!
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Oh, sounds like I may actually have to GM in a minute...
EDIT: Yep! Here we go!
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WAFFLES!
After a keystone-kop-like entrance, the kids are in the core of the fortress killing a lone great cyclops in a Silence field so it can't sound the alarm.
I'll write up the brilliance later, but they're in!
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WAFFLES!
After a keystone-kop-like entrance, the kids are in the core of the fortress killing a lone great cyclops in a Silence field so it can't sound the alarm.
I'll write up the brilliance later, but they're in!
Looking forward to reading it!
WOOOOOO!!
Ooh! Ooh! Ooh!
NH!
I got it!
I got a way to solve all your problems!
My next character build is this: an animate, intelligent rod of wonder that is also infested with primal magic! Literally nothing can go wrong*! It will totally fix every problem your group has*!
*
As for the intelligence, I could have the hiding, leaping, secretive, singing, forgetful, split, uncaring, and/or unreliable traits mentioned at the bottom! Special purpose: to get used a lot!
Cursed with intermittent or drawback optional!
Maybe I only work for froghemoths, and cause them to grow luscious locks at the rate of 1 inch every hour!
I'm telling you, this is gold, man, gold!
(And is also in spoiler mostly just so you can laugh at it, later.)
EDIT: fix a link, and add another!
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Man, Tac is really excited!
And clearly, nothing could go wrong, nothing what so ever...
I know, right?!
Man, another anime where person A decides to "leave the rest to you" and take on <boss/and/or/monster> alone.
Come on, guys.
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OK, Is Everybody Holding On? Here We Goooooooooo! Played 18-Apr-2018
Yes, this session made me think of Peter Pan.
After such a long hiatus, the group didn't really assemble until 6:40 pm, I talked to them about tactics, strategy, and loot distribution for about 10 minutes, and then I let them start planning. It was a good 80-minute discussion, and I interjected occasionally, especially once they started talking about buying a dozen scrolls of Wall of Stone. I told them outright, "Stop thinking about buying the spell that will fix your problems, and start thinking about how to fix your problems with the spells you have."
It did a wondrous job of fixing things, for example:
So, the approach was utterly comical, and I hope I get this correct: Voren put Overland Flight on Hooken, while Hooken cast Ant Haul on himself. Then Kwai Chang Levitated himself and Athelya put Levitate on Voren. Then, clinging to each other in a massive blob, they added Invisibility Sphere, Life Bubble, and Zone of Silence.
This blob of humanity (and other) was all rules-legal; Hooken had the towing capacity to bring all the Levitating party members with him, Athelya used Wings of Fire to fly herself, and the odd conglomeration arrived at the fortress incident-free.
Though I'm going to call out Voren's player yet again for "misunderstanding" his own spells when he claimed that Overland Flight affected the entire party. When I have to look up every single spell you cast because you claim it does things it doesn't, I start having serious issues with you as a player.
Anyway...
The Undetectable Blob of Humanity (and others)™ easily floated in the hole in the wall that Narlock had previously scouted, moved past the guardpost (Life Bubble ensuring that not even the alert serpentfolk's scent ability helped) and entered a room with two curtains, a huge double door, and three massive iron statues.
Narlock's natural 20 on Knowledge: Arcana told them they were looking at three very nasty iron golems, but the golems could not perceive them. In fact, the instructions on the golems were probably along the lines of, "Kill any intruders who enter this room", so they could most likely circumvent the golems rather easily. However, since they had Overland Flight and Ant Haul on Hooken, they of course had to discuss the possibility of air lifting the inanimate golems into the lake. Unfortunately, at 5000 pounds apiece, they were beyond even the enhanced Hooken's ability to carry, so they decided to leave them be.
In yet another brilliant move, they decided to use Hooken's Gloves of Reconnaissance to look through the door. Spotting the lone cyclops on the other side, they started in on a discussion of how to take it out without sounding the alarm.
It was late, and I really want them to succeed, so I pointed out the good old, "Cast Silence on yourself, then run in and surround the enemy and beat him to death" trick. They needed to know about it anyway.
And guess what they did? BEFORE we went into initiatives, they mapped out their positions so that some people would never leave the Invisibility Sphere and would remain invisible, while others would be out of line of sight of the golems. Adding the cherry on top, since Malek could not both block the cyclops and be out of sight of the golems, they put an individual Invisibility on Malek.
We went into initiatives, the trap was sprung, everyone followed instructions and moved to their pre-determined positions, and the surprise round ended with the cyclops surrounded and Silenced, only Kwai Chang visible (and next to the cyclops, providing it with an obvious target), and the golems completely unaware anything is happening.
The highest-initiative PC will close the door, the golems will never see nor hear anything, and the party will be able to take out a single cyclops guard in the heart of the citadel with no one the wiser.
Nicely done, kids!
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Very nicely done!
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NICE(ly done)~!
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Well, everybody's happy 'til that thing gets in its full-round attack on Kwai Chang. At that point I think it'll be fair to say that everyone except Kwai Chang will be happy.
But hey, Athelya has Breath of Life!
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Kwai Chang is a monk, yes? Fight defensively or total defense, 1 ki for another +4 to AC/CMD and the cyclops gets but one 'automatic nat-20' per day...
"'tis but a flesh wound. Have at thee!"
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It's always great when they start to use tactics. Our little murderhoboes are growing up!
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I wonder if Kwai Chang has picked up Snake Style, Snake Sidewind and Snake Fang. Snake Style is my go-to "martial art style" as things presently stand in Pathfinder. Bonus to Sense Motive? Check. Make AoOs when enemies miss you? Check. Use Sense Motive check to replace AC/CMD 1/round? Check. Use Sense Motive to confirm threatened critical hits? Check. Unarmed strikes can deal either B or P damage? Check! (I can punch you underwater without magic, mwahhahahah!!)
Couple that style with the Flowing Monk archetype and it gets absolutely beautiful (for the monk)/disgusting (for the bad guys). "Water Moccasin Style" ftw.
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Well, everybody's happy 'til that thing gets in its full-round attack on Kwai Chang. At that point I think it'll be fair to say that everyone except Kwai Chang will be happy.
But hey, Athelya has Breath of Life!
I'm honestly more scared if we keep standing in the same position because we're in reach of that darn cyclops.
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I'm honestly more scared if we keep standing in the same position because we're in reach of that darn cyclops.Well, everybody's happy 'til that thing gets in its full-round attack on Kwai Chang. At that point I think it'll be fair to say that everyone except Kwai Chang will be happy.
But hey, Athelya has Breath of Life!
hold person is pretty awesome. ;)
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It's always great when they start to use tactics. Our little murderhoboes are growing up!
Wait, use me for what?! Pithy quotes?! My posts are WAY too long for that!
hold person is pretty awesome. ;)I'm honestly more scared if we keep standing in the same position because we're in reach of that darn cyclops.Well, everybody's happy 'til that thing gets in its full-round attack on Kwai Chang. At that point I think it'll be fair to say that everyone except Kwai Chang will be happy.
But hey, Athelya has Breath of Life!
Cyclopes are Persons, too!