I read the rogue guides that are listed here:
http://zenithgames.blogspot.de/2012/11/the-comprehensive-pathfinder-guides. html
I'm not rying to make the most optimised character possible but I also don't want to be useless because I picked the wrong feats and talents.
What do you think?
I'm going to start at 3rd level.
Race: Elf, 15 Points point-buy (+2 to one attribute because of the special "Baba Yaga's chosen" from the campaign we are playing)
Stats:
Str: 10
Dex: 20
Con: 13
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 08
Traits:
Reactionary: +2 initiative
Defensive stratigist: (basically) Uncanny dodge
Strong arm, subtle wrist: move 10ft = +10ft throwing range
1. Two-weapon fighting
2. Talent: Befuddling Strike
3. Skill focus (Acrobat)
4. Talent: Fast stealth
5. Dodge
6. Talent: Offensive defense
7. Improved two weap.
8. Talent: Ninja trick: Wall climber
9. Disorienting Maneuver
10. Talent: Opportunist
11. Opening volley? Point blank shot? Improved initiative?
12. Talent: Crippling strike
13. ?
14 Talent: Skill mastery
15. ?
16. Talent: Entanglement of Blades
I'm not sure what I should take later.
i'm also not that familiar with the Unchained rules (I build this before, just reading up on the new rules) incase any of the feats or talents are now not needed
Please tell me if I made any huge mistakes with the feats and talents I choose or if I should get them in a different order.
If you want to combine Scout + TWF, you want to use Circling Mongoose and pick up that whole feat line.
Other stuff:
1. you don't qualify for ITWF until level 8.
2. Skill Focus (Acrobatics) is not necessarily great... The only time I'd recommend SF is for Versatile Performance bards.
3. You have too many mutually exclusive sneak attack talents, you are better off with weapon training and resiliency early on, particularly due to low attack bonus.
4. Feel free to dump Intelligence to 8. You don't really need that statistic.
5. You NEED great fortitude.
If you want to combine Scout + TWF, you want to use Circling Mongoose and pick up that whole feat line.
I don't understand how Circling Mongoose combines well with the scouts special abilities. Maybe I misunderstood the feat, could you please explain the reason?
1. you don't qualify for ITWF until level 8.
oops, yeah. Missed that.
2. Skill Focus (Acrobatics) is not necessarily great... The only time I'd recommend SF is for Versatile Performance bards.
I noly really got it for the whole "Move Through Threatened Squares without provoking AoO" since beating the enemy's CMD sounds pretty tough. Maybe I should leave it out afterall?
3. You have too many mutually exclusive sneak attack talents, you are better off with weapon training and resiliency early on, particularly due to low attack bonus.
Ok, I'll rework that.
4. Feel free to dump Intelligence to 8. You don't really need that statistic.
Can't do that. I won't make that my primary role but I still have to be the group's skill monkey.
5. You NEED great fortitude.
That and possibly Toughness?
I don't think the Unchained Rogue can take Offensive Defense. I'm at work so I can't check my book but I don't think they included that talent.
oh, that is correct. I just checked. This and Befuddling Strike is replaced by Debilitating injury.
Thanks already for the advice! I'll try to rework it, please keep it coming.
Edit: How about this?
2. Talent: Weapon Training: Dagger
3. Skill focus (Acrobat)/ Great Fortitude
4. Talent: Fast stealth
5. Dodge
6. Talent:Combat Trick: Mobility
7. Spring Attack
8. Talent: Ninja trick: Wall climber
9. Circling Mongoose
10.Talent: Opportunist
11.Improved two weapon fighting
12.Talent: Crippling strike
13.Disorienting Maneuver
14.Talent: Double Debilitation
15.Toughness? Opening volley? Point blank shot? Improved initiative?
16.Talent: Skill mastery
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I think the deal with that feat line is that Spring Attack is good with your Skirmisher ability, you move in, poke them (w sneak attack) and then get the heck out.
Circling Mongoose is not a bad idea for any Rogue, since it can potentially give you flanking (which means if you manage to land your first and second attack you can drop their AC for the rest). Though normally it's a lot of Pre-reqs for one good gain (Spring Attack not being very good without the scout ability).
I think what he is saying is thus, Spring Attack is good since your a Scout Rogue and since you would have all the pre-reqs at that point it makes Circling Mogoose a pretty good pickup.
I don't understand how Circling Mongoose combines well with the scouts special abilities. Maybe I misunderstood the feat, could you please explain the reason?
You can move 10 feet when using Circling Mongoose, which triggers Skirmisher.
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I don't understand how Circling Mongoose combines well with the scouts special abilities. Maybe I misunderstood the feat, could you please explain the reason?You can move 10 feet when using Circling Mongoose, which triggers Skirmisher.
Oh duh, that too. Though you need to move more than 10 to get Skirmisher (not that this is a big deal).
As a swift action your weapons deal +1 damage and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. For every five caster levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level. Prerequisite is the ability to cast arcane spells.
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Sorry, I think I am missing something. This is a TWF rogue...that has the Scout Archetype. I thought the Scout's special ability only worked if the character moves 10 feet or more (8th level) or charge (4th level)...which means you aren't getting TWF...or are you?
Is there a way to combine the two? Sorry haven't been active a while and a bit rusty here. :)
The idea here is that the "circling mongoose" feat lets you move 5 feet and attack, move 5 feet and attack, move 5 feet and attack.
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As a swift action your weapons deal +1 damage and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. For every five caster levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level. Prerequisite is the ability to cast arcane spells.
Does the SPell-like ability FAQ reversal affect this?
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I'm wondering if Circling Mongoose actually works with the 8th level Scout Ability, I see 2 potential issues
1) the language the Skirmisher ability says that you can make "an attack action", I was just reading the Spring Attack entry on the PFSRD where it is clarified that Vital Strike (which requires an "attack action") does not work with sprig attack because an "attack action" is a specific kind of standard attack. Since Skirmisher (the 8th level ability) carries similar language, I believe it potentially disqualifies it from working with Circling Mongoose (which requires a full-round action).
2)! The Skirmisher ability also carries language stipulating that If the Scout makes more than 1 attack in a turn then the ability only applies on the first attack. Making Circling Mongoose work for it requires you to make 2 attacks prior.
On a semi-related note, concerning point 1, I see many people recommend using Spring Attack with a Scout, but doesn't Spring Attack fall into the same issue with the 8th level ability as It does with Vital Strike?
As a swift action your weapons deal +1 damage and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. For every five caster levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level. Prerequisite is the ability to cast arcane spells.Does the SPell-like ability FAQ reversal affect this?
I'm wondering if Circling Mongoose actually works with the 8th level Scout Ability, I see 2 potential issues
1) the language the Skirmisher ability says that you can make "an attack action", I was just reading the Spring Attack entry on the PFSRD where it is clarified that Vital Strike (which requires an "attack action") does not work with sprig attack because an "attack action" is a specific kind of standard attack. Since Skirmisher (the 8th level ability) carries similar language, I believe it potentially disqualifies it from working with Circling Mongoose (which requires a full-round action).2)! The Skirmisher ability also carries language stipulating that If the Scout makes more than 1 attack in a turn then the ability only applies on the first attack. Making Circling Mongoose work for it requires you to make 2 attacks prior.
On a semi-related note, concerning point 1, I see many people recommend using Spring Attack with a Scout, but doesn't Spring Attack fall into the same issue with the 8th level ability as It does with Vital Strike?
It might have the same issue but there is no official statement regarding this combination, which means it is up to the DM to decide.
I'll have to talk with him about but I'm sure he'll allow it.The idea here is that the "circling mongoose" feat lets you move 5 feet and attack, move 5 feet and attack, move 5 feet and attack.
Sorry, I think I am missing something. This is a TWF rogue...that has the Scout Archetype. I thought the Scout's special ability only worked if the character moves 10 feet or more (8th level) or charge (4th level)...which means you aren't getting TWF...or are you?Is there a way to combine the two? Sorry haven't been active a while and a bit rusty here. :)
I only really know about "circling mongoose" thanks to you guys but I allready wanted to include TWF before.
Mainly to make the build more versatile. For example I could:
1. Throw mutiple daggers at flat-footed oponents in the first round
2. Use the scouts abilities to quickly advance to opponents, while still doing sneak attack damage.
3. Have more attacks against flanked opponents(we have mutiple fighters in the group so this shouldn't be a problem)
Basically I wanted to have more options to sneak attack while being more mobile than a "Two-weapon feint" rogue.
Sadly I have to give up "Improved Uncanny Dodge" for it, which sucks because that means my rogue might die from getting flanked.
I'm a big fan of the Minor Magic trick. Lots of good 0 levels spells to choose from.
Then grab the Feat: Arcane Strike - Since your rogue levels now count as caster levels. This will give you a stackable magical enhancement on your weapons, giving you a bonus to hit (very important) and damage.
Thanks for the advice, not sure if I'll include it. I like the idea
but I think I'll concentrate on the other aspects of the build first.Also, as others have said Arcane strike only gives me a damage bonus which only gets higher if I actually have caster levels, so I'm not sure about that.
Still looking for some advice regarding the later levels.
I'm also still not sure if really should drop the skill focus at level 3.
2. Talent: Weapon Training: Dagger
3. Skill focus (Acrobat)/ Great Fortitude
4. Talent: Fast stealth
5. Dodge
6. Talent:Combat Trick: Mobility
7. Spring Attack
8. Talent: Ninja trick: Wall climber
9. Circling Mongoose
10.Talent: Opportunist
11.Improved two weapon fighting
12.Talent: Crippling strike
13.Disorienting Maneuver
14.Talent: Double Debilitation
15.Toughness? Opening volley? Point blank shot? Improved initiative?
16.Talent: Skill mastery
(still not sure where I should put "resiliency ")
Which Skills would you suggest for the "Rogue's Edge"?
Maybe acrobatics first and disable device, escape artist or stealth second?
The magus VMC can give you level to damage via arcane deed and precise strike. I think that May be worth a look. But TWF will have to go.
The magus VMC can give you level to damage via arcane deed and precise strike. I think that May be worth a look. But TWF will have to go.
Maybe but actually I'm not really looking for cross-class or magic options
The scout archtype dosent synergize that well with TWF since you will only get your sneek attack stuff on one attack with scout. And the option i suggestet will cost you 5 feats and not be a Real cross class thing.
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I'd drop Cha to 7 for Int 12. It's thematically appropriate and more useful. I might also drop Con to 12. The 13 is only worth it if you buy it to 14 at 4th level, and that delays raising Dex.
Wall Climber isn't worth it. By 8th, you'll almost certainly have someone with Fly, and spending a Talent to get a worse version of that? Not worth it.
I'd strongly recommend Indomitable Faith and probably Iron Will, given your mediocre Will Save, as well as Twist Away + a Ring of Ferocious Action for Fort Saves. Both are more Important than Dodge (unless going Circling Mongoose, which has the disadvantage of being pretty Feat intensive).
Oh, as a rules issue, ITWF can't be grabbed at 7trh level, though you grab it at 8th with Combat Trick if you like.
Toughness isn't necessary, though FCB to HP is definitely the way to go.
I'd drop Cha to 7 for Int 12. It's thematically appropriate and more useful. I might also drop Con to 12. The 13 is only worth it if you buy it to 14 at 4th level, and that delays raising Dex.
Wall Climber isn't worth it. By 8th, you'll almost certainly have someone with Fly, and spending a Talent to get a worse version of that? Not worth it.
I'd strongly recommend Indomitable Faith and probably Iron Will, given your mediocre Will Save, as well as Twist Away + a Ring of Ferocious Action for Fort Saves. Both are more Important than Dodge (unless going Circling Mongoose, which has the disadvantage of being pretty Feat intensive).
Oh, as a rules issue, ITWF can't be grabbed at 7trh level, though you grab it at 8th with Combat Trick if you like.
Toughness isn't necessary, though FCB to HP is definitely the way to go.
So, well. If I actually rearange the ability scores that way I end up with some pretty odd numbers but hell, let's put it all together and see how it turns out:
Str: 10
Dex: 20*
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 07
(+2 because of the campaign trait "Baba Yaga's chosen")
Traits:
Reactionary: +2 initiative
Defensive stratigist: (basically) Uncanny dodge
Indomitable Faith: +1 will save
1. Two-weapon fighting
2. Talent: Weapon Training: Dagger
3. Twist away
4. Talent: Fast stealth
5. Dodge
6. Talent:Combat Trick: Mobility
7. Spring Attack
8. Talent: Resiliency
9. Circling Mongoose
10.Talent: Opportunist
11.Improved two weapon fighting
12.Talent: Crippling strike
13.double slice
14.Talent: Double Debilitation
15.Disorienting Maneuver
16.Talent: Skill mastery
17.Iron will (pretty late, but I'd like to get circling mogoose)
*I know Skill focus (Acrobat) is really sub-optimal but I pretty much have to get it. There will probably be many situations where I have to move through threatened spaces to get a sneak attack. Also it will help me with circling mongoose later.
Rogue's Edge skills: Acrobatics at 5th, Disable device or stealth at 10th? Perception seems nice too but I don't think our DM is this strict with distances and such, so that might be a waste.
This is now nitpicking, since the build looks solid:
You are spending too many advanced talents in offense when the rogue is naturally offensive but lacks defense. Get Slippery Mind before Crippling Strike (also, Double Debilitation is usually better than Crippling Strike, and they are mutually exclusive).
Iron Will is too late, though. At that point, you need immunities. You'd be better off with Improved Critical.
I'm not ENTIRELY sure Double Slice is worth it... it's just such a small damage boost (about 4 or so points of damage?) at that level, when most of your damage comes from sneak attack. Disorienting Maneuver should be higher priority, since your attack is the low thing.
Did I mention Canny Tumble stacks with Disorienting Maneuvers since they are circumstance bonuses from two different sources? That should boost your accuracy way up high.
That looks solid, though I'd probably grab Double Debilitation before grabbing Crippling Strike.
I might also go Dodge at 3rd and Twist Away at 5th, since it's the ring of Ferocious Action that really makes it awesome and you won't be able to get that quite as early as 3rd.
You are spending too many advanced talents in offense when the rogue is naturally offensive but lacks defense. Get Slippery Mind before Crippling Strike (also, Double Debilitation is usually better than Crippling Strike, and they are mutually exclusive).
Iron Will is too late, though. At that point, you need immunities. You'd be better off with Improved Critical.
I'm not ENTIRELY sure Double Slice is worth it... it's just such a small damage boost (about 4 or so points of damage?) at that level, when most of your damage comes from sneak attack. Disorienting Maneuver should be higher priority, since your attack is the low thing.
Did I mention Canny Tumble stacks with Disorienting Maneuvers since they are circumstance bonuses from two different sources? That should boost your accuracy way up high.
1. Two-weapon fighting
2. Talent: Weapon Training: Dagger3. Dodge
4. Talent: Fast stealth
5. Twist away
6. Talent:Combat Trick: Mobility
7. Spring Attack
8. Talent: Resiliency
9. Circling Mongoose
10.Talent: Opportunist
11.Improved two weapon fighting
12.Talent: Slippery Mind
13.Disorienting Maneuver
14.Talent: Double Debilitation
15.Canny Tumble
16.Talent: Skill mastery
17.Improved critical
So. That should be it. I think it's pretty much done.
Thanks for all the help and advice!
Please let me know if I missed something or if you have some other suggestions for the last few feats and talents but I think I'll just get the few usefull things that are still left.
About "Double Slice". I'm not really sure if it would even work.
I wanted it because of the "use dex instead of str" stuff from Finesse Training but it is unclear if the 1,5 for twohanded / 0,5 for off-hand rule even applies. Neither is it clear is Double Slice would let me use the full bonus.
I checked the forums and couldn't find an official answer (but apparently I'm not the only one who has this question).
Seems like that is up to my DM too... sure would complain if I just get the bonus without the feat.
If you mean this FAQ, I don't see why not.As a swift action your weapons deal +1 damage and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. For every five caster levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level. Prerequisite is the ability to cast arcane spells.Does the SPell-like ability FAQ reversal affect this?
because you can;t actually cast arcane spells or have an actual caster level.
With the latest FAQ on finesse training, Double Slice doesn't improve your modifier when using dexterity.
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With the latest FAQ on finesse training, Double Slice doesn't improve your modifier when using dexterity.
Technically true, but expect table variation anywhere outside PFS given how clearly that should work from a RAI perspective.
Feat: Arcane Strike - Since your rogue levels now count as caster levels. This will give you a stackable magical enhancement on your weapons, giving you a bonus to hit (very important) and damageThanks for the catch, goofed about the +plus to hit, ment make weapon magical.
My unchained rogue isn't that high up in levels yet but I carry around masterwork daggers made of materials, adamantine, Mithral, Cold Iron, for when I need to go through DR. With Arcane Strike providing magic enhancement on them, I can get through just about all DR.
but SLAs dont give aces to arcane strike any more do they?
With the latest FAQ on finesse training, Double Slice doesn't improve your modifier when using dexterity.Technically true, but expect table variation anywhere outside PFS given how clearly that should work from a RAI perspective.
well talking about RAI, apparently mark/dev team knew about double slice while making the ruling. or at least they knew shortly after.
personally I allow all modifiers to strength to then apply to dex.
but SLAs dont give aces to arcane strike any more do they?Feat: Arcane Strike - Since your rogue levels now count as caster levels. This will give you a stackable magical enhancement on your weapons, giving you a bonus to hit (very important) and damageThanks for the catch, goofed about the +plus to hit, ment make weapon magical.
My unchained rogue isn't that high up in levels yet but I carry around masterwork daggers made of materials, adamantine, Mithral, Cold Iron, for when I need to go through DR. With Arcane Strike providing magic enhancement on them, I can get through just about all DR.
Why not?