Alchemist questions two. Item Creation Feats and Familiars ( not the disturbing ones)

[Psi51]

Just looking into alchemists and searching various forums and opinions.

Questions that I would like answering that have arisen with out significant and/or non conflicting answers.

Do alchemists count as casters for item creation feats ?

and

Do alchemist levels count for familiar ( not tumor familiar ) leveling ? ( eg multi class wizard alchemist)

[Kalindlara]

1) I believe that they do not, since they do not cast spells and (I'm fairly sure) do not themselves have a caster level. Yes, I know they get Brew Potion. It's weird. :)

2) No, for the same reason that cleric or sorcerer or any other levels do not stack. They only stack if the other class is granting a familiar (witches, certain sorcerers, members of various archetypes).

Does this make sense?

[Kalindlara]

From one of the FAQs linked on d20pfsrd:

Is an alchemist a spellcaster for the purpose of crafting magic items other than potions?

As written, no, alchemists are not spellcasters, and therefore can't select feats such as Craft Wondrous Item. The design team is aware that this creates some thematic problems with the idea of an alchemist creating golems and so on, and plan to examine this in the future.

[Psi51]

Thanks for the quick reply I was hoping for the opposite on both questions but .... oh well. I think I can still make potions using the +5 modifier to get extra types.

[Kalindlara]

I'm not sure you need to add the +5. Then again, I'm not entirely sure about how they use Brew Potion myself. I would just let them do it. ^_^

[Joesi]

Psi51 wrote:

Thanks for the quick reply I was hoping for the opposite on both questions but .... oh well. I think I can still make potions using the +5 modifier to get extra types.

huh? Can you elaborate what in the world you're talking about?

If one has the brew potion feat (which most types of alchemists automatically start off with), they can brew potions (without having to add any DC; hwy would they need to add DC?). If they are a type of alchemist that loses it's automatic brew potion feat then there's no way they can brew a potion, and adding +5 to a DC certainly wouldn't change anything; that would make no sense.

That said, I'd say that any GM should certainly allow an alchemist to take the brew potion feat despite having no caster level.

It's also an option for a GM to allow alchemists to get other item creation feats, but this is far more debatable than letting the get something their class would normally get (still not a very contentious nor balance-affecting issue).

If you're referring to brewing a potion that does the same thing as a wondrous item, I wouldn't allow it except maybe unless it was an elixir (and allowing alchemists to craft elixirs with brew potion would be a house rule). Even as an elixir, It would require the spell to be expended just like in potion making; the spell requirement cannot be skipped for spell trigger items like potions.

[Psi51]

+5 is for Spellcraft check to create for spells not on alchemist list. And potions are use activated items not spell trigger items.

[thejeff]

Psi51 wrote:

+5 is for Spellcraft check to create for spells not on alchemist list. And potions are use activated items not spell trigger items.

Quote:

The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

While you're correct that they're not spell trigger items, you still can't bypass the requirement to actually have the spell. The +5 doesn't come into brewing potions at all, as far as I can see.

[johhov]

thejeff wrote:

Psi51 wrote:

+5 is for Spellcraft check to create for spells not on alchemist list. And potions are use activated items not spell trigger items.

Quote:

The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

While you're correct that they're not spell trigger items, you still can't bypass the requirement to actually have the spell. The +5 doesn't come into brewing potions at all, as far as I can see.

This combined with the fact that alchemists are 6th level "casters" and as such have more expensive potions past level 1 realy clashes with the theme of alchemists as "potion masters".

[Joesi]

johhov wrote:

This combined with the fact that alchemists are 6th level "casters" and as such have more expensive potions past level 1 realy clashes with the theme of alchemists as "potion masters".

Except alchemists aren't called "potion masters" anywhere as far as I know. They just have brew potion, meaning they're adept at creating an using potions, unlike most other spellcasters in the world.

Are you referring to the fact that potions can technically be made only at the caster level that the character is at? Either there's something hidden that says otherwise, or else virtually everyone house rules that a person can choose to craft the potion at a lower CL.
Am I crazy to say that? I don't think anyone forces people to craft items or potions at their CL and not lower. I'm pretty sure RAI is to allow it as well.

[thejeff]

Joesi wrote:

johhov wrote:

This combined with the fact that alchemists are 6th level "casters" and as such have more expensive potions past level 1 realy clashes with the theme of alchemists as "potion masters".

Except alchemists aren't called "potion masters" anywhere as far as I know. They just have brew potion, meaning they're adept at creating an using potions, unlike most other spellcasters in the world.

Are you referring to the fact that potions can technically be made only at the caster level that the character is at? Either there's something hidden that says otherwise, or else most people house rule that a person can choose to craft the potion at a lower CL.
Am I crazy to say that? I don't think anyone forces people to craft items or potions at their CL and not lower. I'm pretty sure RAI is to allow it as well.

Cost is based on spell level * caster level. Since they're 6th level casters they have to be higher level to use a given level of formula.

An alchemist can use a 3rd level extract at 7th level, not 5th as a wizard would for a 3rd level spell - so the base is 21, not 15.

[Joesi]

Okay, that's somewhat what I was thinking initially, but didn't give it much thought.
It's a good point I suppose.

Game play wise or balance wise I find that it tends to not be a big deal though since I never see alchemists brew higher level potions for consumption. It will usually just be for alchemical allocation. Scrolls or wands are far more efficient for most scenarios.