So, I ask, what classification, or classifications, does the Bow fall under?according to crb it falls under ranged weapon
That doesn't fall under the melee classifications for effort use (light, one handed, two handed). As such it could need 1 or two hands of effort.
We'd need to know both it's weapon category and it's 'effort' category. Really, it would be nice if projectile weapons DID fall under the melee designations like firearms do for just this reason.
LOL You have what YOU think intent is. I have what I think intent is. BBT has what HE thinks intent is. I'm betting none don't match up. So having at the VERY least some guidelines seem needed.
Right, but when the people are reading the intent of "it takes two hands to use" as "it takes two hands" are everyone but you and blackblood troll its time to leave over. You don't need to manufacture an epistemic crisis out of clear english, especially to garner a mechanical advantage.
If you've made up your mind you know what the unwritten rules are bully for you. I can't say I do.
Its not an unwritten rule. Its the meaning of whats written. Sometimes that is legitimately vague. This is not one of those times.
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Some weapons, fall under subcategories of classifications.
A Ranged weapon, can also fall under the sub-classification of "Thrown".
A Ranged weapon, can also fall under the sub-classification of "Firearm: One-handed".
These are in addition to weapons that could, fall under multiple classifications.
Example: The Dagger is a Light Weapon, but also falls under the classification of Ranged, with a sub-classification of Thrown.
Some weapons, fall under subcategories of classifications.
A Ranged weapon, can also fall under the sub-classification of "Thrown".
A Ranged weapon, can also fall under the sub-classification of "Firearm: One-handed".
These are in addition to weapons that could, fall under multiple classifications.
Example: The Dagger is a Light Weapon, but also falls under the classification of Ranged, with a sub-classification of Thrown.
And?
Where are go going with with this? It looks like you're just spouting out random rules.
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If a Longbow does not fall under the classification of "Two-Handed Weapon", then it cannot be used with abilities that effect, specifically, Two-Handed Weapons, or restrictions, that specifically pertain to Two-handed weapons.
This is true, even if the rules are unwritten, or extrapolated from rules pertaining to Two-handed weapons.
Following that line of thought, since it doesn't fall under two handed weapons, or light weapons, or one handed weapons then it can't be used at all because it doesn't exist! Its schrodingers giant toothpick! firing the weapon causes a rules vortex. Cats sing with dogs, the world implodes in itself, cern creates a black hole I"VE GOT A BOW AND ARROW AND NONE OF THIS MAKES SENSE!"
Or you can just figure out that it occupies "hands" for the exact same reason that a two-handed weapon occupies your "hands": because your hands are occupied. The game simply is not playable if you're not able or not willing to correctly parse rules like that all the time.
Right, but when the people are reading the intent of "it takes two hands to use" as "it takes two hands" are everyone but you and blackblood troll its time to leave over. You don't need to manufacture an epistemic crisis out of clear english, especially to garner a mechanical advantage.
If you take even minimal time looking over the thread, you'll fine it's just not the two of us. Second, who's trying for a mechanical advantage? Do you know something awesome about a bow/melee weapon TWFing I don't know? Third, if we followed plain English, we wouldn't have hands being different from hands of effort. Pathfinder isn't known for plain English or do you want to debate how clear race traits are vs racial traits...
Its not an unwritten rule. Its the meaning of whats written. Sometimes that is legitimately vague. This is not one of those times.
No it's not. Hands can mean two different things now. That went WAY past legitimately vague and went straight to damn confusing. Second, it's the very definition of unwritten, when even the dev's explaining it say it is. It's a limitation that appears nowhere in the written text: an unwritten rule. Just because that's how you understood/understand it doesn't make it suddenly show up in the books.
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]No it's not. Hands can mean two different things now. That went WAY past legitimately vague and went straight to damn confusing. Second, it's the very definition of unwritten, when even the dev's explaining it say it is. It's a limitation that appears nowhere in the written text: an unwritten rule. Just because that's how you understood/understand it doesn't make it suddenly show up in the books.
Because of you. This is what you did. This is the language you forced on the game. This is the absurdity you forced us all to live with trying to poke and pry at the rules in the quest for yet one more attack to make.
You did this, you can't complain about it.
It exists.
I falls under a specific classification.
It notes how it is used.
It cannot occupy both hands, at all times, or it would not function.
It occupies them often enough to keep your hands busy in combat so that they can't be used for other things. This is how the game works. Action economy is important. Time spent doing things on your turn is an exclusive choice. You fired a bow, you can't start two weapon fighting because your hands are busy.
And I can't find a better note to leave the thread on than the hawkeye thing. So later.
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It exists.
I falls under a specific classification.
It notes how it is used.
It cannot occupy both hands, at all times, or it would not function.
It occupies them often enough to keep your hands busy in combat so that they can't be used for other things. This is how the game works. Action economy is important. Time spent doing things on your turn is an exclusive choice. You fired a bow, you can't start two weapon fighting because your hands are busy.
And I can't find a better note to leave the thread on than the hawkeye thing. So later.
All other things? Does my Spiked Gauntlet, not threaten? Can I not Quickdraw a Quickdraw Shield? Can I not kick?
What makes this different, than say, holding a Shield, firing a Crossbow, and making an unarmed strike, all in one turn?
Action Economy has allowed: 1 Ranged attack, and 1 Melee attack.
What makes them different?
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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On not threatening without a nocked arrow, you mean that someone with snapshot MUST nock an arrow to make AoO? I'd have to disagree with that.
This is complicated by the inability to take a free action to draw an arrow when it isn't your turn.
Snap Shot FAQ allows this which isn't normally allowed.
]No it's not. Hands can mean two different things now. That went WAY past legitimately vague and went straight to damn confusing. Second, it's the very definition of unwritten, when even the dev's explaining it say it is. It's a limitation that appears nowhere in the written text: an unwritten rule. Just because that's how you understood/understand it doesn't make it suddenly show up in the books.Because of you. This is what you did. This is the language you forced on the game. This is the absurdity you forced us all to live with trying to poke and pry at the rules in the quest for yet one more attack to make.
You did this, you can't complain about it.
I must have missed my promotion to cartoon villain. Is it time to destroy Tokyo/new York yet? Did I also cause global warming and bird flu? *rolls eyes* You make it sound like I went to paizo and kicked their dog...
It exists.
I falls under a specific classification.
It notes how it is used.
It cannot occupy both hands, at all times, or it would not function.
It occupies them often enough to keep your hands busy in combat so that they can't be used for other things. This is how the game works. Action economy is important. Time spent doing things on your turn is an exclusive choice. You fired a bow, you can't start two weapon fighting because your hands are busy.
And I can't find a better note to leave the thread on than the hawkeye thing. So later.
It MAY be that "It occupies them often enough to keep your hands busy in combat so that they can't be used for other things." We can't tell that from the FAQ though. It only provided an unwritten rule as guidance so I have nowhere to find out. I can only be sure that is can't work the same as a two handed weapon and that's the only example given for our unwritten rule.
I'm sorry I don't have the certainty in the nebulous unwritten intent as you seem to have. I'm sorry I want the wording to actually read clearly and have only one meaning, I'm sorry having more than one kind of hand is confusing. I'm sorry that a complete 180 degree change from how this kind of thing works throws me off.
I agree with Liz's post a few pages back: An actual FAQ would be enlightening, rather than arguing for the sake of arguing. I see a whopping 5 FAQ requests, including my own, on BBT's first post. Let's fix that.
Well, Graystone, it looks like you may have to change your name to Snidely Whiplash. ;)
Sorry, didn't catch that. I was too busy kidnapping girls and tying them to railroad tracks. Mwwhahahahahahahaha!!!
I agree with Liz's post a few pages back: An actual FAQ would be enlightening, rather than arguing for the sake of arguing. I see a whopping 5 FAQ requests, including my own, on BBT's first post. Let's fix that.
Good luck with that...
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The only problem there would be that you are then restricting what can be used for TWF with a bow, which would need to have a qualifier. Which would be more work.
The baseline for consideration as to whether you are wielding a bow (and therefore qualifying for applying TWF) would be if TWF feat would apply in all circumstances.
For improved snap shot with a bow in one hand and sword in another, the TWF model breaks down. As you do not have two hands to use the bow, you do not threaten someone 10' from you. Since you do not threaten, this means you are not wielding the bow. Since you are not wielding the bow, you are wielding only one weapon and the TWF feat does not apply.
At 1st level, a bow nomad can simultaneously wield a combination of two of any of the following ranged weapons: shortbow, longbow, and their composite versions. When a bow nomad makes a full attack with two bows, two-weapon penalties apply and can be offset with Two-Weapon Fighting feats. Since bows aren't light weapons, a bow nomad with Two-Weapon Fighting takes a –4 penalty on attacks with each of her bows. Extra attacks from other sources, such as those granted by Manyshot or Rapid Shot, can be applied to only one of the wielded bows per round.
This class feature is only available to Kasatha Rangers.
But I can cheat that by selecting Racial Heritage (Kasatha) and be able to take levels in this archetype anyway by 1st level.
So I can be a race that has only 2 hands, take this class feature, and TWF with two bows whenever I want, since both apparently only require one hand ever for TWF.
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At 1st level, a bow nomad can simultaneously wield a combination of two of any of the following ranged weapons: shortbow, longbow, and their composite versions. When a bow nomad makes a full attack with two bows, two-weapon penalties apply and can be offset with Two-Weapon Fighting feats. Since bows aren't light weapons, a bow nomad with Two-Weapon Fighting takes a –4 penalty on attacks with each of her bows. Extra attacks from other sources, such as those granted by Manyshot or Rapid Shot, can be applied to only one of the wielded bows per round.This class feature is only available to Kasatha Rangers.
But I can cheat that by selecting Racial Heritage (Kasatha) and be able to take levels in this archetype anyway by 1st level.
So I can be a race that has only 2 hands, take this class feature, and TWF with two bows whenever I want, since both apparently only require one hand ever for TWF.
broken ... just broken.
I would not allow at a home game. For PFS, I would ask the player if they were serious and shake my head in pity for the fool who would have picked something so broken it will inevitably be listed as not legal in the additional resources, hopefully without a free rebuild. That is if the race ever became available for PFS play.
The only problem there would be that you are then restricting what can be used for TWF with a bow, which would need to have a qualifier. Which would be more work.
The baseline for consideration as to whether you are wielding a bow (and therefore qualifying for applying TWF) would be if TWF feat would apply in all circumstances.
For improved snap shot with a bow in one hand and sword in another, the TWF model breaks down. As you do not have two hands to use the bow, you do not threaten someone 10' from you. Since you do not threaten, this means you are not wielding the bow. Since you are not wielding the bow, you are wielding only one weapon and the TWF feat does not apply.
Does it matter that there is only a small pool of weapons it would work for? The whole question revolves around weapons what use a 'hand' but not a physical one. they already exist in the game so it's no more 'work'. You baseline is a complete failure as the baseline weapon selection includes weapons that invalidate your proposal.
Let me give you another situation. Someone has a 10' pole with a banner on it. They are wearing a boulder helmet and armor spikes. Because there hands are full, they'd have an issue with TWFing? Both 'hands' are free.
At 1st level, a bow nomad can simultaneously wield a combination of two of any of the following ranged weapons: shortbow, longbow, and their composite versions. When a bow nomad makes a full attack with two bows, two-weapon penalties apply and can be offset with Two-Weapon Fighting feats. Since bows aren't light weapons, a bow nomad with Two-Weapon Fighting takes a –4 penalty on attacks with each of her bows. Extra attacks from other sources, such as those granted by Manyshot or Rapid Shot, can be applied to only one of the wielded bows per round.This class feature is only available to Kasatha Rangers.
But I can cheat that by selecting Racial Heritage (Kasatha) and be able to take levels in this archetype anyway by 1st level.
So I can be a race that has only 2 hands, take this class feature, and TWF with two bows whenever I want, since both apparently only require one hand ever for TWF.
There is no problem wielding both IMO. Your issue comes when it's time to load and fire as you have no free hand. A juggling bard, growing an extra vestigial arm or something of that nature could fix that.
what you've basically done is say, I'm using two light crossbows at once. That's fine but you need more than those two hands to operate each one. Same principle. To use that style you have to figure out how to get that needed extra hand. The Kasatha has that out of the box but anyone else has to add something to make it work.
At 1st level, a bow nomad can simultaneously wield a combination of two of any of the following ranged weapons: shortbow, longbow, and their composite versions. When a bow nomad makes a full attack with two bows, two-weapon penalties apply and can be offset with Two-Weapon Fighting feats. Since bows aren't light weapons, a bow nomad with Two-Weapon Fighting takes a –4 penalty on attacks with each of her bows. Extra attacks from other sources, such as those granted by Manyshot or Rapid Shot, can be applied to only one of the wielded bows per round.This class feature is only available to Kasatha Rangers.
But I can cheat that by selecting Racial Heritage (Kasatha) and be able to take levels in this archetype anyway by 1st level.
So I can be a race that has only 2 hands, take this class feature, and TWF with two bows whenever I want, since both apparently only require one hand ever for TWF.
broken ... just broken.
I would not allow at a home game. For PFS, I would ask the player if they were serious and shake my head in pity for the fool who would have picked something so broken it will inevitably be listed as not legal in the additional resources, hopefully without a free rebuild. That is if the race ever became available for PFS play.
It's not broken. It's just so MAD that it couldn't possibly go well, even if it was allowed.
I actually challenge somebody to do this in PFS and see if they get away with it, because I can practically guarantee it won't work.
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A dagger is a light weapon: "Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only."
So yes, you apparently can wield a dagger in two hands, although you gain no additional damage. Wielding it this way would consume your main hand and offhand attacks as per attacking with any other weapon two-handedly.
Shurikens, on the other hand, appear to be only usable with one hand. If you did manage to use a throwing weapon with both hands, it would also consume your main and offhand attacks.
In any case, unarmed strikes could be combined with these attacks in the same way they could with any other. You just need to have enough attacks (hands of effort) to do so.
Ah, so wielding a Dagger in to hands, doesn't violate the "unwritten rule" of no more than x1.5 Str to damage, but instead, violates another "unwritten rule", in which any weapon, no matter the classification, being used with two hands, makes any other off-hand attack unavailable, regardless of whether it uses a hand, or not.
Seeing, as that was not covered in the FAQ, and not in the "unwritten rules" highlight, from some Dev post, how does the "unwrittten rules" treat weapon classifications?
You seem to know a lot more about when these rules apply, and when they do not.
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I didn't read into the x1.5 Str thing.
It was the whole argument of the unwritten rules to disallow it in the first place. Placed by Devs themselves.
Also, where are the rules discussing "hands of effort" in regards to available off-hand attacks?
If use of hands, and not number of attacks, or classification of weapons, are the true limiter, then how do any weapons that do not use hands work?
You realize you don't even need to have hands, to make an off-hand attack?
What's the qualifier, for what attacks makes the off-hand unavailable?