[Unchained] Summoner Guide

[Mighty Glacier]

MrTsFloatinghead wrote:

Couple of rules issues with your guide -

First, for eidolon as mounts builds I think it's important to point out that NONE of the good aligned subtypes can actually take the mount evolution, because mount is limited to Daemon, demon, devil, elemental or protean. Once you add in the base form restrictions that excludes devil as well, and then alignment restrictions will likely mean that the majority of players will be shoehorned into elemental for this build.

Also, because Rake requires quadruped base form several of the subtypes you have it listed for (angel, archon, azata) actually can't take it - it is more or less impossible to build those subtypes as natural attackers as a result.

Finally, I'm not sure you will get away with the assertion that slam doesn't require the use of the arms. I get where the RAW argument is, but I think that this is one of those things that would end up varying from table to table, so probably should be caveated as such.

(1) You're right in that none of the good-aligned subtypes can act as mounts, but it's not really crucial to the build itself. Mount eidolon build mainly just focuses on getting a mount that can scales with your level: subtype hardly matters. I'll mention this fact in the Other Eidolon Builds -section though just for the reader's sake.

(2) Oh yeah, I had copypasted some text and forgot to check. Angel, archon, azata, div, inevitable and protean don't get rake. Though I must say that it should be evident from the fact that none of those subtypes have access to quadruped base form.

(3) This I'm not completely sure about. On one hand "slamming" something doesn't necessary mean slamming with arms. In fact, the dictionary definition is "To strike forcefully with some implement"; implement meaning any body part in this case. On another hand, the rules call out that "The eidolon must have the limbs (arms) evolution to take this evolution." and "This evolution can be selected more than once, up to the number of the eidolon's limbs (arms) evolutions." which would imply that arms are required. The rules don't state that the arms are required, just implies it.

Still, the RAW is that as long as long as you have arms you can take slam evolution. Apparently, you can use slam and claws on the same arms (no rules against it), so they aren't exclusive. As such, slam doesn't "use" arms to hit targets and I'd rule that one can make a slam attack during a full-attack with claws/manufactured weapons.

[MrTsFloatinghead]

Mighty Glacier wrote:

(3) This I'm not completely sure about. On one hand "slamming" something doesn't necessary mean slamming with arms. In fact, the dictionary definition is "To strike forcefully with some implement"; implement meaning any body part in this case. On another hand, the rules call out that "The eidolon must have the limbs (arms) evolution to take this evolution." and "This evolution can be selected more than once, up to the number of the eidolon's limbs (arms) evolutions." which would imply that arms are required. The rules don't state that the arms are required, just implies it.

Still, the RAW is that as long as long as you have arms you can take slam evolution. Apparently, you can use slam and claws on the same arms (no rules against it), so they aren't exclusive. As such, slam doesn't "use" arms to hit targets and I'd rule that one can make a slam attack during a full-attack with claws/manufactured weapons.

Right, I agree that there's a RAW argument there, but I think people who are trying (say) to play in PFS may find that being a source of table variation, so it's worth noting just so people can be prepared.

[Blayde MacRonan]

Actually, a good example of a slam attack where limbs are not required is the tanuki .

[Qu0zl]

I built a free web based tool where you can pick from pre-populated lists of SM or SNA or create you own list for display/printing. Augment Summons can be applied if you wish, as can the SM summoning templates (Celestial, Fiendish, Entropic & Resolute).

http://gregfarrell.org/pfs/

The stats are dynamically modified if Augment Summon is applied.

I built it because I think creature Summoner's really need a better way to get print outs of the monsters they summon. The stat blocks that I'd seen online were either incomplete or incorrect.

If you check it out and like it, I'd be happy to have you link to it from your guide.

[Dhjika]

the guide seems to assume that Reach is an evolution that can be repeated but the evolution does not have the repeatable language

It also says one attack - and it is not clear whether that means one claw of pair - or both of a pair.

[Starfox]

Ryzoken wrote:

I think we need a clarification on what we gain when the base form and the subtype conflict as regards attacks. Does an Azata really not get claws on Biped or Bite on Serpentine? The subtype references a base form with a list of free evolutions, but the base form contains those evolutions as a subset of the evolutions it already has. Does the subtype remove evolutions from the base form or are the evolutions listed in addition to those the base form grants? The text is remarkably unclear.

Been thinking abut this too; my take is that the subtype's granted evolutions totally override those given for base forms.

[TrueMonk]

I think you need to include a spell section. There are a lot of changes to the spell list. I am on the phone so I can't list them all. But
Black tentacles 3-->4
Invisibility greater 3->4
Overland flight 4->5

Just to mention some. And a lot of speel have also been removed from the spell list.

[Mighty Glacier]

This sure brings back memories... I might update the guide with some of the newest archetypes, maybe.

Spell section would be redundant though. The spells affected are relatively high level (sans haste, my god did that spell need to be put back to 3rd-level) so they are hardly relevant for PFS.

[Rosc]

Oh man, Overland flight got bumped up. Geez. Well, I guess that makes Aspect [Flight] the top pick for non melee Summoners again.

Speaking of that, how do you feel about a paragraph dedicted to the Aspect ability? It feels like a wonderful mini-capstone at level 10, and there are a lot of fun things you can do with it depending on your build. I know it's technically not a change from the APG version and thus doesn't flow with the direction of the guide, but I feel like the change in evolution points might re-contextualize your selections.

[antisocialcade]

I kinda think you undervalued the naturalist summoner. Sure, going from SM to a trimmer SNA hurts, but if you are more eidolon-focused, the animal focus ability is actually pretty strong. At the very least it's +2 str/dex effectively permanently. But more than that, it gives a very flexible set of buffs that can be applied on the fly as a swift action. You can bump a number of skills, grant scent, evasion, increased speed or buff AoO to-hit as needed for the situation. It's like unlimited free swift-action evo-surge for certain abilities as-needed.

Even better, since the archetype actually gives the animal focus class ability, you can take the planar focus feat from the monster summoner handbook. This adds abilities like scaling bonus fire damage on melee attacks, permanent feather-fall, dealing free cold damage to attackers, natural armor bump+burrow speed, swim-speed+underwater breathing and a few more skill bumps.

Couple this with evo surge, you could have a jack-of-all trades eidolon that doesn't sacrifice combat ability. In fact, it gains some extra because you can always stick it with bull or tiger aspect for bonus stats.

I'm planning on making an aasimar summoner to take advantage of the DR/evil fcb, which is crazy awesome at lower levels. Since the archetype loses aspect, if I really want wings, I can feat into it later.

I noticed you didn't make an AoO-focused build in the guide. What about something with power Attack, combat reflexes, flying blade exotic weapon proficiency and lunge? Coupled with the large evolution (eventually), long-arm and enlarge, this could give a massive covered area. And with the flying blade bonus and the snake aspect you'd get +4 on attacks. You could also take the slam evo to cover enemies too close (maybe add push to the slam?).

[Half-Dwarf]

I found a minor issue with the Storm Hound (Quadruped Air Elemental example build) in the guide: I don`t think it can pick slam, since it has no arms.

Also, how to get more attacks with quadrupeds? Do you have to get arms for them? (thus being able to take more claws, and slam, also)

EDIT: actually, I don`t get the weapon wielders, either: aren`t they supposed to get multiple attacks with their weapon as BAB increases, just like PCs? specifically, it says in the Summoner`s class description:

Quote:

Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of

attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given
level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take
evolutions that grant additional attacks. Attacks made with
weapons, including those granted by a high base attack
bonus, are counted against this maximum.

[Catharsis]

Of course slams use up the arms they're linked to. Slams are what monsters with hands instead of claws use (e.g., giants). Angels get slams because they have hands but typically no claws. You can't use slams as secondary attacks if you're using those arms to wield a weapon, exactly like you can't use a claw in which you wield a weapon.

Need more proof? «Alternatively, the eidolon can replace the claws from its base form with this slam attack (this still costs 1 evolution point).» Why would this rule exist if you could use both slams AND claws with the same arms?

Overall, slams are just an inferior form of claws. Their only advantage is in making a single-attack build with combat reflexes and the likes, in which case the bite is probably superior.

[Gabriel Cantrell]

One feat that I think is worth ANY summoner taking is the Resilient Eidolon feat from Ultimate Magic.

[Redblade8]

Any chance this guide will get an update? I'd love to see a look at the new deepwater eidolon.

[Cthulhu Escobar]

Hey, sorry for the thread necromancy, but I noticed that you have not and did not add the abilities for 12th, 16th, and 20th level eidolon subtypes. Would you mind doing that, or is there a reason you haven't/didn't

[Rosc]

Cthulhu Escobar wrote:

Hey, sorry for the thread necromancy, but I noticed that you have not and did not add the abilities for 12th, 16th, and 20th level eidolon subtypes. Would you mind doing that, or is there a reason you haven't/didn't

The guide is mostly designed with Pathfinder Society Organized Play in mind, where the vast majority of content caps out at 12th level. While I personally thing it's worth going all the way, I can understand the focus on levels that the majority of PFS players will actually see.

Redblade8 wrote:

Any chance this guide will get an update? I'd love to see a look at the new deepwater eidolon.

Pretty bad. Half of its evolutions require tentacle attacks, which the eidolon cannot legally obtain. Just play Demon/Daemon/Elemental/Aberration and play up the deepwater theme in roleplay.

[deuxhero]

Well for anyone interesting in making an updated guide or just found this thread while building a Summoner...

Awesome item for original or Unchained Summoner: Apron of the Careful Chemist

Quote:

This leather apron is made from several layers of thick hide from common beasts of burden and is reinforced with steel rivets. The apron grants its wearer a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the apron is worn. In addition, the wearer gains a +2 competence bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks. When the wearer uses an item on himself or another character that grants an alchemical bonus on saving throws, that bonus increases by 1.

This is a chest item costing 5200 GP. Chest items of value are pretty rare, out of slot boosts to ability scores are even rarer (the only other I know offhand is the Snakeskin Tunic in UE)

Ancestor subtype from Blood of Beast is also nice. Weapon training, +2 strength (if the right race), effective +4 to strength on top of that, qualify for fighter only feats. This subtype is only of use for a race that gets natural attacks or weapon proficiencies on its own (or free feat that will be spent on it in case of human). For human ancestors, combine this feat with Extra Traits and Heirloom Weapon to come out a trait ahead of just blowing a feat.