Ok so I am curious about how Ghorus Seed and the Many Lives ability would work with one another.
As a full-round action, a ghoran can expel its ghorus seed from an orifice in its abdomen. If planted in fertile ground and left undisturbed for 2d6 days, the seed grows into a healthy duplicate of the original ghoran, save that the duplicate may reallocate all of its skill ranks upon sprouting. Once a ghoran expels its seed, it gains 1 negative level, and it dies as soon as its duplicate sprouts. This duplicate replaces the previous ghoran character (6 RP)
At 5th level, if a reincarnated druid is killed, she may automatically reincarnate (as the spell) 1 day later. The reincarnated druid appears in a safe location within 1 mile of her previous body. At will for the next 7 days, she can sense the presence of her remains as if using locate object as a spell-like ability. If she is killed during these 7 days, she remains dead and does not reincarnate. The many lives ability does not function if the reincarnated druid is slain by a death effect. A reincarnated druid cannot be raised from the dead or resurrected, though she can be reincarnated.
So I am curious ghorus Seed says it makes a duplicate that replaces the original. Many Lives reincarnates the original after 1 day.
Does this mean in theory you could have well... loads of the same character running around? I mean a Ghoran pops out a seed and plants it, then goes off and dies nobly and reincarnates as a human or whatever. The duplicate sprouts up and replaces the original, so you have two characters, one reincarnated and one replacing the original. This Ghoran also pops a seed and then dies and reincarnates as a elf. So now you have a Ghoran seed sprouting into a new Ghoran version of the character, a human version, and a newly reincarnated elf version.
Is this how the rules are looking? I am sure it was never intended for this but, would that be strictly how it works?
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If the druid reincarnates using the Many Lives ability, they're still the "original" for purposes of the Ghorus seed ability, which is active on the character not the body. (I believe the flavour is that your soul returns to occupy the duplicate, and being in a new form doesn't impede that.) So if you plant your seed and then reincarnate, your reincarnated form will die once the duplicate sprouts. The end result would be that as long as you continue to plant seeds, you'll be returned to your Ghoran form shortly after any reincarnation - though you'd be running around with negative levels pretty frequently if you're planting these seeds as contingencies.
Also, reincarnate returns you are a creature of the same type. Allowing the reincarnated druid power to win has too much risk of bringing you back as a vegepygmy (there are not many low CR plants for the GM to pick from).
Also, an autodeath such as that caused by Ghorus Seed could be argued to be a death effect, with would also prevent Many Lives.
Well it was the wording of the ghorus Seed that confused me, it does not say it brings you back, the wording implies you are just a clone or duplicate, and that you may in fact be a whole new Ghoran, I mean you can change up your skills each time. Plants grow seed to produce children of a sort. So the way I thought it might work is basically, Pappa Ghoran produces a seed and then goes off to die a noble death saving the world. His spawn sprouts and takes his place as the character you control.
So basically Ghorus Seed mentions nothing about Ghoran 1's soul or anything being used in the seedling body, the wording says you play the seedling and that it replaces the Ghoran for the purpose of play.
So if Ghoran 1 dies and does not somehow get reborn into his seedling, then his soul would exist for reincarnation.
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Ghorus seed is more of a delayed reincarnation than anything - I certainly wouldn't call it a death effect. Death effects are specifically labelled.
It's true that you'd reincarnate as a plant, but I'm not sure what's so bad about being a vegepygmy. A ring of eloquence would solve the not speaking thing, and it's a handy item for a druid to have anyway.
I will agree its not a death effect. But Ghorus Seed is kind of meh its not stated as a rejncarbated or raised effect by call out.
It isn't defined as a reincarnation, but it's more like a reincarnation than a death effect.
In any case I believe my interpretation of how the two abilities work together is correct.
Your interpretation works to make sure there is only one character and if the flavor of Ghorus Seed actually said something about returning the soul to the duplicate. But according to RAW it does not say it returns the soul to the duplicate body strictly speaking it says your original character dies, and then you get a new one to take its place. Similar to how with Leadership your Cohort dies and you get a new one.
And if your ghoran is reincarnated into a human due to Many Lives, the human is still your original character, just modified. Reincarnation won't get rid of the negative level you get from depositing a seed, so why would it get rid of the contingent death?
i think they mean the original would reincarnate after the contigent death, personally this is similar to something i once though of involving a similar process but with a Lich instead, so when ghoran 1 plants the seed, then dies, they revvive from the phylacteryy, and then you basically have a replicator army with a Load-Bearing Macguffin, could make a decent plot for a oneshot :P
Somewhat like Hazrond said.
Ghoran 1 uses his seed ability and plants it.
Ghoran 1 dies when the seed sprouts.
Ghoran 2 is born when the seed sprouts (It retains all feats but can retrain all skills)
Ghoran 2 is now your player character.
That is the normal progression. Many Lives would just add.
Ghoran 1 is reincarnated as Human 1.
Death would remove the first -1 level from the Ghoran ability as Death removes negative levels and all effects as it kills you.
Human 1 now has 2 negative levels from Reincarnation via Many Lives
Ghoran 2 is at normal player level.
Because Ghoran 2 is said to be a duplicate and a replacement, it is not ever called the same person, no mention of the Ghoran's soul transferring into the new body or anything of that sort. It is literally a new character.
Your reincarnated human body in this example would be your original character reincarnated, the Ghoran 2 would be your character as well.
Its works via RAW but likely was never intended to work together.
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Death would remove the first -1 level from the Ghoran ability as Death removes negative levels and all effects as it kills you.
No it doesn't.
Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not undone. While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life. None of the dead creature's equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell.
Clearly death doesn't undo all effects. It does not state that it removes negative levels, and rule of thumb is that spells do only what they say they do, so negative levels are not removed.
Similarly, for Reincarnate (the relevant effect for Many Lives):
Since the dead creature is returning in a new body, all physical ills and afflictions are repaired.
I do not believe there is a good argument for considering a negative level to be a physical ill, so it sticks.
Note also that the line indicates that the dead creature is returning in a new body - therefore it's still the dead creature and any effects relevant to the dead creature still apply (aside from physical ills and racial abilities which are specifically removed by the spell). Note as well that the Many Lives indicates that the reincarnated druid appears within 1 mile of her body, not within 1 mile of the previous character, because it's still the same character.
So the new Ghoran may or may not be the same character as the druid, but the reincarnated druid definitely is the same person as they were when they planted the seed and that means they die as soon as their duplicate sprouts.
EDIT: Thanks to Hazrond's phylactery example, I am noticing that this actually does work but for an entirely different reason than the one you originally suggested. Since the Ghoran Seed isn't a death effect, Many Lives will trigger on the original reincarnated druid when it is killed by the Ghorus Seed effect - if the seed sprouts 8 days or more after the original death/reincarnation. This is about 40% likely assuming that the character dies immediately after planting the seed, and odds go down sharply for every day's delay. So you could build up an army of duplicates by planting seeds and immediately committing suicide if you were willing to suffer a 60% casualty rate for your non-ghoran reincarnated "cuttings." The phylactery Hazrond mentioned works for the same reason - it triggers on the character's death - and doesn't have the same failure rate due to the sprout growing too quickly. Given that the Ghoran "Past- Life Knowledge" ability implies reincarnation I still think this isn't supposed to work, but it does do so if you're keen on having this work by RAW. Though I'm not sure why it would be that important - if you're the GM you can make it work however you want and if you're not then the GM shouldn't let you do ridiculous things just because it's RAW.
Why does Raised Dead matter? Negative Level is not a Magical Disease or Curse, so why cite that part? It is not mentioned as a hold over, so why would it be?
I am not getting the % chance of survival odds you figured, care to explain how you figure that?
And no as Ghoran 1 reincarnating into a Human for example no longer has the Ghorus Seed ability and so is not subject to that racial ability.
No more then a Human who was reincarnated from a Drow would still have Light Blindness.
Reincarnate can not turn a ghoran into a human. The spell does not change the type.
For a humanoid creature, the new incarnation is determined using the table below. For nonhumanoid creatures, a similar table of creatures of the same type should be created.
Ghoran are plant type, not humanoid.
I realise this isn't what you are interested in, but it is making your examples inherently wrong to start with.
Just my idea, but if I was the GM in such a situation, I'd say that you'd reincarnate as the new Ghoran from the seed, for simplicity's sake.
Yes but ignoring how things work pretty much negates the game. Why roll this and that when for simplicity's sake you could just assume the party killed the big bad?
Of course I am speaking in hyperbole but I ask this in the rules section to ask if this would work together the way it is written not so much if it should be ruled that way to make things less complicated.
Reincarnate can not turn a ghoran into a human. The spell does not change the type.
For a humanoid creature, the new incarnation is determined using the table below. For nonhumanoid creatures, a similar table of creatures of the same type should be created.Ghoran are plant type, not humanoid.
I realise this isn't what you are interested in, but it is making your examples inherently wrong to start with.
It was simply for example so people understood a race change was occurring. And most GMs would likely just use the table for simplicity rather then have to make up a new list for the Plant Type which does not have a lot of playable options.
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So you shouldn't simplify how Ghoran Seed works with Many Lives but you should simplify the Reincarnation tables?
The GM's job is to interpret the rules in a way that makes sense and is fun. That's Rule 0. If the rules seem to say something that doesn't make sense or isn't fun, the GM changes them. That's the game.
If I had someone playing a Reincarnated Druid with a non-humanoid race I would absolutely take 15 minutes before the game to make up a proper reincarnation table for that character. It's not a hard issue to see coming. Playable options include ghoran, vegepygmy, frost fir, leaf leshy, gourd leshy, mandragora, fungus man, or fungus leshy - remove the racial HD and you're set. Plantoid Servitor works if you tone down the poison a bit (particularly the spawn effect). That's as many playable plants as there are native outsiders in the ARG!
Why does Raised Dead matter? Negative Level is not a Magical Disease or Curse, so why cite that part? It is not mentioned as a hold over, so why would it be?
The fact that Raise Dead explicitly says that magical diseases and curses aren't fixed disproves your earlier assertion that all effects are removed upon death. However, that doesn't mean that the spell fixes everything that isn't a magical disease or curse. Spells do what they say they do, nothing more. If a spell doesn't say that it removes negative levels, it does not remove negative levels.
Similarly, reincarnate, the effect in question here, only states that it removes physical afflictions.
And no as Ghoran 1 reincarnating into a Human for example no longer has the Ghorus Seed ability and so is not subject to that racial ability.
No more then a Human who was reincarnated from a Drow would still have Light Blindness.
When reincarnated, you swap physical racial traits, such as light blindness. Mental traits don't change, just like mental afflictions aren't repaired. The negative level and impending death - a death independent of any physical wound or affliction - is not a physical affliction or trait. Therefore it is not affected by reincarnation.
I am not getting the % chance of survival odds you figured, care to explain how you figure that?
Rose, the Ghoran, plants a seed. Later that day Rose is eaten by a Grue. Within 2d6-1 days the seed will sprout and when it sprouts Rose will die. Now, Many Lives will save Rose, but only if she doesn't die (the seed doesn't sprout) within 7 days of being reincarnated (in which case the death is permanent). That means she dies permanently if 2d6-1 < 7, or if 2d6 < 8. There's about a 60% chance of the total of 2d6 being 7 or less, so a 60% chance that Rose dies permanently when her seed sprouts. (I'm not sure if Many Lives works if you die precisely 7 days after being reincarnated so I erred on the side of it working. If it doesn't, then Rose dies permanently if 2d6 < 9, which is 72% likely.)
That's assuming that you're not applying Rule 0, which is possible if for example this is the BBEG and stopping a reincarnating plant army is the plot.