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Finesse Training is "great" I love it, free feat and free dex to damage with one finesse weapon, Why is that not great? If I spent feats on Weapon Focus or Specialization of improved crit they are all with one weapon, and would need to be retrained. I find that unless you find something super amazing people tend to pick the weapons they want to play with to start.
Dex to damage to elven curve blade!!! or cross it with monk and get finesse unarmed strike (unchained ninja by proxy)
My only complaint STILL no viable thrown weapon options (finesse training for melee only, sad).
I am loving the new toys! can't wait to kick the tires, way to early to start digging a ditch for what is clearly a massive upgrade (across the whole class).
Then there's also the fun little BS of an Asian dual-wielding Rogue.
Be a Tengu.
Take Swashbuckler at lv1 with Weapon Focus (Katana). Finesse gives you Dex to Attack with Katana
Take Rogue starting at lv2. and gain Weapon Finesse in general.
At lv3 (Rogue 2), take Slashing Grace as your 3rd level Feat, and Combat Trick (Two-Weapon Fighting) as your Rogue Talent.
At lv4 (Rogue 3), take Finesse Training (Wakizashi) and proceed to get Dex to Damage with both the Wakizashi and Katana, saving the two +1 modifiers you'd be spending to add Agile to them for Keen each.
Dual-wielding not-a-Ninja at lv4 who gets Dex to Damage on both his 18-20 crit-range weapons without spending a DIME is pretty sassy, if you ask me.
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Normal Wakizashi and Katana for Dex to Damage & 15-20 crit range: 18,000gp each, 36,000gp in total
Swashbuckler 1/Rogue 3 Wakisahi & Katana for Dex to Damage & 15-20 crit range: 8,000gp each, 16,000gp total.
Meaning at lv4, you're getting a Dex to Damage and the best crit range available on BOTH your weapons for a total GP cost of ONE of them with dex-to-damage and high-crit qualities, minus 2000gp.
Lets not overreact. My point isn't that Finesse Training is not a welcomed boon - it is. It's that if Finesse Training applied to a weapon group it would be far more flexible - and it potentially help avoid the time and expense of retraining. I don't always know what weapon type I will be using from level to level depending on drops.
Now for some of you sure, I imagine that is a non-issue. If your game is on "rails" or is PFS then sure - the weapon you start out with on day one is the same type two years later when you're done. If that's you ignore me and be all happy.
Lets not overreact. My point isn't that Finesse Training is not a welcomed boon - it is. It's that if Finesse Training applied to a weapon group it would be far more flexible - and it potentially help avoid the time and expense of retraining. I don't always know what weapon type I will be using from level to level depending on drops.
It would also be borderline broken, there's really no two ways about it.
Fighters get +1 to all weapons in a Weapon Group at lv5. +1 is nice, but nothing compared to Dex to Damage.
Dex to Damage on potentially a dozen weapons or more means you'd be seeing lots of 3-level dips into Rogue, even two-handers (assuming Finesse Training DOES allow for the 1.5x Dex for two-handing); Str is ONLY good for melee - make Dex just about as widely-available for Melee damage, and suddenly Str kinda starts to suck badly, honestly.
And for a Fighter or Swashbuckler to gain Dex to Attack and Damage on an entire Weapon Group, it costs 3-4 Feats (Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Slashing Grace, and Martial Versatility), and even THEN it's only for one-handed Slashing weapons.
If Finesse Training at level 11 applied to all finesseable weapons in your Chosen Weapon's category, that might be okay, and at lv17 applying to all finesseable weapons universally.
But Slashing Grace at level 3 to an entire Weapon GROUP? For FREE? No, that's far too powerful.
Now for some of you sure, I imagine that is a non-issue. If your game is on "rails" or is PFS then sure - the weapon you start out with on day one is the same type two years later when you're done. If that's you ignore me and be all happy.
It's called Retraining.
Many of us don't play PFS and play Sandbox games.
We just realize that Retraining exists, and spending 5 days of Downtime and a piddling amount of GP to retrain a 3rd-level Class Ability is pretty inconsequential when you realize that you don't have to spend even ONE Feat or Weapon Enhancement to get 2 free Feats.
I agree that the "one weapon only" paradigm in Pathfinder is annoying. If you're lucky enough have an open-minded GM and don't play in PFS or the like, you could suggest opening "one weapon"-effects to "one weapon group"-effects - Weapon Focus: heavy blades instead of Weapon Focus: Longsword, for example. When he realizes that the odds of the party actually using weapon drops skyrocket when they have a much higher chance of being able to use their feats and powers with it, there's a good chance he'll agree.
It's a very common houserule. :)
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It seems like Wakizashi's would be a nice choice for this build. Or kukri's to a lesser degree.That IS as cool as it seems - that's freakin' fantastic.
[snip]
So, when all is said and done, Finesse Training saves you 3 Feats, or 2 feats and a level dip, or 4000gp+.
Agreed, Finesse Training is FANTASTIC. My unchained rogue took it for daggers, and I have TWF. I love this.
Yet a fellow player is now talking me into Outflank, which requires a high crit range (rapier). Newsflash: it's still OK to spend a bit of money on an agile rapier to get dex to damage before level 11! ;)
Edit: so rapier on main hand for full dex to damage, and dagger in off-hand FOR FULL DEX TO DAMAGE (as Finess Training lacks the 1/2 dex damage on off-hand nerf of agile weapons...) :)
alas none of those are on the rogue's weapon list, and my build is feat intensive -- the rapier will do just fine; the goal is the crit range, not the rest...
Finesse training: Fighter Weapon Groups instead of one weapon. Done.
The rogue is actually pretty bad still, bad fort and will saves are crippling and they still don't have an innate to hit booster like other martial classes
That was my complaint to till I read the Major Magic rogues talent. The to hit problem doesn't really come into play till high level. The problem at level 9-15 was you iterative attacks tend to miss, not big deal now Debilitating injury lower the AC. Around level 16 though landing that first sneak attack to lower the AC gets very difficult. You could find yourself needing 18 or high to hit. But that's where True Strike comes in via the Major Magic talent usable 16 times per day. Now you make the first strike with a +20 and your opponent is -8 to AC, that's basically +8 to hit. Now you are landing the rest of your attacks. Even that really high AC opponent now is instead need 18/20/20 you need 10/15/20 as well any buffs from party makes that better. When it 18/20/20 you might give 15/20/20 after a +3 buff inspire courage now it's 7/12/17. Much better than rogue was before, they are actually useful at the top levels now.
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(...)and dagger in off-hand FOR FULL DEX TO DAMAGE (as Finess Training lacks the 1/2 dex damage on off-hand nerf of agile weapons...) :)This is probably something that could do with a FAQ. How does Finesse Training, Fencing Grace, and Slashing Grace interact with two-handed weapons and two-weapon fighting?
From what I can tell you can take an elven curve blade or an elven branched spear as your finesse training weapon and apply 1.5 dex modifier to damage. Elven dex-rogues with two-handed reach weapons are a worthy alternative to TWF.
True, I suspect they'll FAQ this somehow... for the moment, I'll enjoy the lack of Agile Weapon 1/2 dmg on off-hand clause in my Finesse Training milkshake... ;)
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True, I suspect they'll FAQ this somehow... for the moment, I'll enjoy the lack of Agile Weapon 1/2 dmg on off-hand clause in my Finesse Training milkshake... ;)(...)and dagger in off-hand FOR FULL DEX TO DAMAGE (as Finess Training lacks the 1/2 dex damage on off-hand nerf of agile weapons...) :)This is probably something that could do with a FAQ. How does Finesse Training, Fencing Grace, and Slashing Grace interact with two-handed weapons and two-weapon fighting?
From what I can tell you can take an elven curve blade or an elven branched spear as your finesse training weapon and apply 1.5 dex modifier to damage. Elven dex-rogues with two-handed reach weapons are a worthy alternative to TWF.
I hate to burst your bubble, but I'm pretty sure the "If any effect would prevent the rogue from adding her Strength modifier to the damage roll, she does not add her Dexterity modifier" clause means you get 1/2 dex on off hand weapons with finesse training.
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@voska66: here's a feat that your major magic true striking rogue could perhaps take at 11th level:
Quicken Spell-Like Ability
This creature can use one of its spell-like abilities with next to no effort.
Prerequisite: Spell-like ability at CL 10th or higher.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's spell-like abilities, subject to the restrictions described in this feat. The creature can use the chosen spell-like ability as a quickened spell-like ability three times per day (or less, if the ability is normally usable only once or twice per day).
Using a quickened spell-like ability is a swift action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The creature can perform another action—including the use of another spell-like ability (but not another swift action)—in the same round that it uses a quickened spell-like ability. The creature may use only one quickened spell-like ability per round.
The creature can only select a spell-like ability duplicating a spell with a level less than or equal to 1/2 its caster level (round down) – 4. For a summary, see the table below.
A spell-like ability that duplicates a spell with a casting time greater than 1 full round cannot be quickened.
Normal: The use of a spell-like ability normally requires a standard action (at the very least) and provokes an attack of opportunity.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. Each time it is taken, the creature can apply it to a different one of its spell-like abilities.
Empowered and Quickened Spell-Like Abilities
Spell Level Caster Level to Empower Caster Level to Quicken
0 4th 8th
1st 6th 10th
2nd 8th 12th
3rd 10th 14th
4th 12th 16th
5th 14th 18th
6th 16th 20th
7th 18th —
8th 20th —
9th — —
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I hate to burst your bubble, but I'm pretty sure the "If any effect would prevent the rogue from adding her Strength modifier to the damage roll, she does not add her Dexterity modifier" clause means you get 1/2 dex on off hand weapons with finesse training.True, I suspect they'll FAQ this somehow... for the moment, I'll enjoy the lack of Agile Weapon 1/2 dmg on off-hand clause in my Finesse Training milkshake... ;)(...)and dagger in off-hand FOR FULL DEX TO DAMAGE (as Finess Training lacks the 1/2 dex damage on off-hand nerf of agile weapons...) :)This is probably something that could do with a FAQ. How does Finesse Training, Fencing Grace, and Slashing Grace interact with two-handed weapons and two-weapon fighting?
From what I can tell you can take an elven curve blade or an elven branched spear as your finesse training weapon and apply 1.5 dex modifier to damage. Elven dex-rogues with two-handed reach weapons are a worthy alternative to TWF.
The bubble... RESISTS! (it's not an effect that prevent the rogue to add her STR mod)
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Even still, no other Paizo-published ability allows you to TWF with dex to damage.
Agile weapons do, Slashing Grace does, Fencing Grace does... There's plenty of options to TWF with dex to damage.
Not without massive investment of gold and or feats. Slashing/Fencing grace also are at massive penalties unless you use the effortless lace.
True, though I'd argue that the investment cost on agile weapons is relative to your level. It's an unattainable investment at level <6 and a trivial expense at level 10+. There's also the sawtooth sabre if you can't afford an Effortless Lace. Either way, I only wanted to point out that there are other ways of gaining dex to damage from Paizo-published sources. The unchained rogue is not unique in this regard.
