Heroes of the Wild, No Witch Patrons Or Spirit?


Pathfinder Society

1/5

So then, do you think that the witch patrons and the wood shaman spirit were purposefully left out, or just over looked?

Grand Lodge 4/5

I dunno about the spirit, but as for the Patron...

Quote:
The hex and patron theme on page 11 are legal for play.

1/5

Yes, but on page 13, there are four more.

Grand Lodge 4/5

I'd go with "purposefully left out" then.


Wouldn't it just be easier to just have it say "Wood Spirit is not legal for play,"?

Grand Lodge 4/5

John Rivers 639 wrote:
Wouldn't it just be easier to just have it say "Wood Spirit is not legal for play,"?

No? They only list what's not legal if there's overwhelmingly more legal things than non-legal things, or if they share a page and type with legal things.

5/5 5/55/55/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The page number thing is annoying as heck


Hmm that is a bummer as I was actually looking forward to Wood being a playable Spirit for my Shaman.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

BigNorseWolf wrote:
The page number thing is annoying as heck

Agreed, but there might be method to the madness, that way it is significantly harder to learn what is legal in the book, if you don't have the book/pdf in front of you.

And frankly I don't think that the archive and hero lab are entirely reliable either.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
The page number thing is annoying as heck

Agreed, but there might be method to the madness, that way it is significantly harder to learn what is legal in the book, if you don't have the book/pdf in front of you.

And frankly I don't think that the archive and hero lab are entirely reliable either.

Neither of them, nor D20PFSRD, are 100% accurate. They are handled by human beings, and we all make misteaks, now and again.

When you notice an error, or something needing an update, it is always best to use the site's feedback link.

And, the best way to make sure that the site is accurate, is to verify, verify, verify. Verify Additional Resources and the sourcebook. Preferably while building it, not at the table. ;)

4/5

Indeed but the Page # thing is one of many things that makes it harder to verify a build - if you have a PDF copy you are referring to the page numbers aren't the easiest things to find (especially if you are primarily using reference sites like the PRD, Archives and D20pfsrd to evaluate build options and ideas and then verifying that a) the options you want to use are legal and b) you own the books (as a subscriber the later for at least books published since I started my subscriptions is a bit easier). The former is trickier as if I started with a reference site I might not immediately know the page number of a given option - and further if I search the additional resources by the name of the option I want (say a magic item or a spell name or a feat/archetype/trait etc) unless it is specifically called out as a legal or specifically called out as illegal due to the frequency of page number references it is very hard to evaluate whether not a specific option is legal (searching the PDF to figure out the page numbers for every option then comparing that to the Additional Resources page is about the only way.

(further complicated by some cases in the past year of the Additional Resources website and downloadable versions have differed making it even more challenging to know which is correct)

3/5 *

totally agree with Rycaut

I own dozens of PDFs at this point, looking up page numbers sucks.

4/5 *

Maintaining the AR list is already a non-trivial effort. Doing it by listing every item and whether it's legal or not - well, it's not going to happen. The time you have to spend occasionally adjusting a build because HeroLab lists something incorrectly is small compared to the amount of time required to create and maintain such a list, even when you multiply it by every player out there who does this. (And not every player plans their build out from level 1 to 12. Many prefer a more organic approach to character development, or just don't want to spend that level of time.)

1/5

What I find odd though is that plant patron is legal, but none of the other nature based patrons are.

Silver Crusade 3/5

I bought the book and am now also wondering about these two things not being legal, as nothing immediately caught my eye that would explain it.
For the patrons it might be the fluff saying "very few witches". As for the spirit, I've got nothing.

Especially as the witch hex marked as legal cannot actually be used because it requires the non-legal Cauldron hex.

4/5

I don't plan out my build for 12 levels, though I do try to have a general idea - and then when I'm getting close to leveling I start looking at options (especially checking if there is something new that is a better fit - a new class as a multi class option, new feats (Fencing Grace for example for my rapier focused Dex based Urban Barbarian is a natural etc). I also try to theory craft characters a bit to decide how I might use various race boons I have (and since I have enough GM credits to level a bunch of characters to nearly any level I want I have to plan some builds out father than one or two levels.

Grand Lodge 1/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

As the author of the wood spirit, I'm surprised that it's not listed as legal, and I really hope it's only an oversight and they'll include it later. It's odd that it's specifically mentioned that the witch archetype on page 11 is not legal for play, but there's no mention of the wood spirit at all.

Also, I don't think the wood spirit changes the power level of the shaman in any significant way, and it doesn't require you to be evil or use any banned resources. (Which, I guess, are the most common reasons for a resource to get banned.)

Sovereign Court 5/5 *

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Sometimes options are banned in order to have them appear on chronicle sheets to unlock them in game, like certain improved familiar options, for story related reasons.


I got the book on hand. I couldn't tell you why the Wood Shaman is not legal.

Analysis of Wood Spirit to see why it may not be legal:
Spells: Good. There is not one illegal spirit spell like Awaken or the like.

Hex of Lignification (Su): This might be a culprit. Someone probably assumed you would use this in tandem with the Cackle hex to give a Friendly target staggered and Hardness 5. Like the tank of the party now at 3rd level has Hardness 5 as long as the Shaman keeps cackling.

Nature's Gifts (Su): Harmless as Shamans already got a spell identical to it.

Spines and Brambles (Su): This could be a culprit but it just seems too silly to be that. As you can keep conjuring Light Undergrowth (forest terrain) for an unlimited number times per day. Yet with each usage, any previous undergrowth conjured with this "withers away".

Verdant Path (Su): This is 100% balanced, no lies.

Whispering Leaves (Su): Same with the previous hex.

Spirit Animal: Balanced.

Spirit Ability (Tree Limb, Su): Balanced.

Greater Spirit Ability (Bloody Roots, Su): Culprit Found, maybe. A stationary plant version of Black Tentacles that only harms enemies. The shaman can walk by and not treat it as difficult terrain and the shaman's allies treat it as difficult terrain.

One counter argument for it is that it only lasts 3+CHA MOD rounds per day. What does the average Shaman got for Charisma? 12 to 16 at best? 4 to 6 rounds at best for a threat like this unless you min-max your charisma score hard like 20+ just so it lasts 8+ rounds per day. To put this into perspective, A level 7 Wizard gets Black Tentacles that lasts 7 Rounds or more if they feats/traits/class features/items that extend the length of its duration.

I'm not even joking here, CHA or INT is more likely to be a Tertiary stat for Shamans... unless a specific build would need a higher Charisma or INT like how INT is vital to a Lore Shaman.

You don't even get this ability "ahead-of-schedule" compared to other spellcasters. You get it at 8th level, the same level a Sorcerer for instance would have gotten it. Full casters get Black Tentacles at 7th level.

True Spirit Ability (Tree Form, Su): Balanced.

Manifestation: It is very good and very strong like other Shaman manifestations... but in terms of Pathfinder Society, NO ONE and I do mean NO ONE, would reach it unless its a GM pet project/XP-Blob.

4/5

Doesn't Cackle spell out which hexes it can affect? So not sure you could cackle to extend these hexes unless either I've missed something or the book specifies that a hex is able to be cackled to extend it... (I've seen lots of people mistakenly think that Cackle works on hexes it doesn't actually apply to - such as Sleep Hex)


^
True so it can't be hex of lignification. 2 Rounds at best normally. You would need a wand of Hex Vulnerability to keep the lignification going or dedicated all your 1st level spells to Hex Vulnerability.

Community / Forums / Organized Play / Pathfinder Society / Heroes of the Wild, No Witch Patrons Or Spirit? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.