Okay guys, I have a problem. I have looked for a million ways to do this now, and all in all it is easy and legit. But, I want it to be fun. I don't wanna be this one trick pony that goes from enemy to enemy claw attacks it, paralyzes it and then coup'd graces the dude. I wanna be AMAAAAZING. That's why I am looking into multiclassing but there is to much stuff and I am to inexperienced to make the right connections for cool combos, this is where you guys step in. I hope you can give me the coolest kinds of class combos without falling back in strenght. Here is what we are working with.
Darakhul / maybe Dhampir, doesn't matter, in either case we have a bite attack of either 1d8 / or 1d3 with the special ability to give me 7 Temp Hp
Negative Energy
Eldritch Heritage - Ghoul Sorcerer Bloodline | Ghoul Claws that paralyze later on
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I really don't wanna be all that much caster, I'd much rather have tons of supernatural and spell-like abilities and as high a BaB as possible. As I will attack only with my bite attack and my claws I don't want multiple BaBs' but only a single super high scalin BaB, that's why I am multiclassing in the first case, to not get those +10/+6 Babs' which I can't utilize anyways.
The Darakhul has burrow speed which is amazing and gets increased to 40 feet even if I manage to grab Greater Eldritch Heritage. Also with Improved Eldritch Heritage I can snatch me a Haste spell-like ability which is also nice. Especially if looking at the Blind Time Oracle from where I could grab a Slow spell like ability or time hops etc.
Any form of imporved movemen is cool I guess, although I really am not interested in flying, but burrowing would be amazing.
Anything to make my Natural attacks stronger is cool, anything to have more natural attacks is cool.
Sneak attacks and stealth would be amazing I guess.
And as for magic, second rate . . . I don't wanna waste time buffing, I am a stingy person I never use buffs . . . and if I should its already to late. And I wanna go melee, I don't wanna cast, although if there are any cool touch attacks to power up entire full attack actions up with I guess that would be a pretty nice addition as well.
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So yeah, either you guys think now I am retarded, which might just be, I have no idea about multiclassing and only know it sucks. Or you think this could work and have some good stuff to add. I much prefer later as first doesn't really help me.
So yeah, I think I have gone down into the dark parts of the multiverse. . .
This is what I have come up with now. Please tell me what you think. Also I am kind of scared of this creation.
Primal Crossblooded Bloodrager Evangelist -Black Blood, Abyssal
Darakhul - Undead humanoid
Undead Immunities (Fatigue Immunity, yay); Bite 1d8
Deathspeak, Coherent Rage: Stealth
40 Feet Movement, 10 Burrow
Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: --
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 18
Bloodrager
1: Bloodline Power: Abyssal Claws (1d6 Claws); Skill Focus: Stealth
2: Uncanny Dodge
3: Blood Sanctuary; Eldritch Heritage: Ghoul Claws (d6)
4: Bloodline Power: Demonic Bulk (+1 size); Blood Casting; Eschew Material; Abyssal Claws are Magic Weapons; Strenght + 1
5: Improved Uncanny Dodge; Arcane Strike
6: Bloodline Feat: Power Attack;
7: Bloodline Spell: Chill Touch; Damage Reduction 1/-; Ghoul Claws Paralyze 1 Round; Improved Natural Attack: Bite (2d6 Dmg)
8: Bloodline Power: Abnormal Reach (+5 Reach); Abyssal Claws 1d8; Strenght +1
9: Bloodline Feat: Combat Reflexes; Deific Obedience
Evangelist
10: Skilled; Obedience;
11: Aligned Class: Bloodline Spell: Bulls' Strenght; Damage Reduction 2/-; Protective Grace (+1 Ac); Improved Natural Attack: Claw (2d6 / 1d8)
12: Greater Bloodrage; Divine Boon 1 (Pestilent Penitent (Sp) curse water 3/day, feast of ashes APG 2/day, or contagion 1/day)
13: Gift of tongues (Necril); Bloodline Feat: Improved Bullrush; Primal Choice: Lesser Beast Totem (Claw 1d8)| Beast Totem (+4 Ac); Abyssal Claw (1d6 Fire Damage); Awesome Blow
14: Bloodrage Spell: Rage; Damage Reduction 3/-; Multitude of Talents
15: Indomitable Will(+4 Will vs Enchantment); Snatch
16: Bloodline Feat: Toughness; Divine Boon 2: Death Knowledge, learn a spell of the Death or Magic Domain
to tired to write up anything more <-< based on my calculation I think this . . . thing will deal out monstrous damage all game through, starting at level 1 when I can already attack 3 times at pretty high mods . . . getting more and more powerful after hitting level 4. At level 13 I believe I can reach 30 strenght with all the self buffs and I'll need to look into how to get myself into a huge creature to actually take snatch.
Otherwise I can always take improved/ greater Eldritch since i would get a free haste spell like ability and 30 feet burrow speed.
Well I think I am fine with this thing. At level 19 I get a 4th Primary Natural Attack yet again, and using my natural attacks seems overal much much stronger than attacking with weapons, since I get to make all attacks at full BaB bonus.
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I don't know if there's a way to put master of many styles(snake style + snake fang), on it, so everytime they attack you and miss, you get a free chance to riposte. Bloodrager needs more str then cha, and bloodrager is weird because you can't gain anything from rage (you're undead). In fact, you can't even activate your rage as you are undead and immune to mind affecting ><
Which means your entire bloodline on bloodrager side is essentially worthless.
I'd also try for some divine casting class (probably oracle) to go for divine (or maybe in your case - unholy) protection, to add cha to your saves. You can still do eldritch heritage and all that, pump your umd to wazoo and you can use long arm. Righteous might will let you enlarge yourself(I doubt enlarge person would work on you as you're undead, not human) the time comes. Don't forget magical knack.
The defensive version would be to go into alchemist/investigator, and knock yourself silly with barkskin, blur/displacement, then you can use longarm as an extract. You'll need to drop some cha for int of course.
I think he's considering an undead PC. Darakhul are undead. DR is your enemy as its very hard for natural attackers to breach DR.
I'm eyeing a somewhat similar build using the same bloodline and the Unchained Monk. Trying to sort out if a 1 lvl dip in Sorcerer is worth it to take the Empyreal bloodline.
I'm assuming you're just taking the Ghoul bloodline and not a Ghoul PC.
The race I picked is an actual player race from Kobold Press and a sort of Ghoul, but it is twerked in ways to make it aplicable and is overal pretty well made. I could go another race without problems, such as the Dhampir, but that would not change a thing, in fact all that would do for me, is give me a vampiric touch spell like bite attack instead of a higher damage bite attack, which doesn't make a difference since I will end up coup'd gracing everything early level anyways due to the paralyzing claws until i then get the retarded high powerbuf and start wailing away with natural attacks at max BaB.
Also [Just a Mort], what your saying is that an ability that increases my physical size, strenght etc. is mind affecting and therefore does not affect my Undead? So with your logic a Grave Knight Berserker can't rage, a Level 20 Undead Bloodline Bloodrager can't rage etc., it doesn't make sense. Rage in an undead may not be roleplayed as actual anger/ rage, but instead as ferocity due to hunter instincts etc., I do not how this player race is crippled for undead.
AND EVEN IF IT SHOULD BE, i dont care, this build can be done with pretty much any class and still have somewhat the same result, you only would have to grab a natural attack one way or another to start out with, which there are enough races to do that for you.
And I need high charisma rather than strenght, why? simple, I have soooo much strenght buffs that at level 13 I should reach almost 30 strenght, why pump that up anymore? Rather have some charisma to cast buffs, lenghten durations of rage etc.
Not to mention I might need the 18 cha to give my ghoul the feat to appear human >>
THe bonuses from a rage are Morale bonuses. Undead (along with some other creature types) are immune to Morale bonuses. That's what JustaMort was getting at. Were you an undead, such as a ghoul, you'd be immune to the bonuses of the Bloodrage. At least, some of them.
This is why a lot of people have been confused about the Carnivorous Flower companion of the Treesinger. Plants are also immune to Morale bonuses and the Flower has a rage ability.
How is a rage an morale bonus, where is that written? Not questioning it simply unaware of that fact. All rage says it that the user uses inner resourcer/ powers to strenghten himself.
Not to mention, the mind-effect immunities of a darakhul player race are the same as the undead bloodline lvl 20 ability immunities, which is a bloodline selectable by bloodragers. I don't really see a problem there.
As for your empyreal thoughts. . . I don't know how your sorcerer dip would affectyour unarmed strikes at all, as it only changes scaling of sorcerer only abilities, nothing else.
I have now realised that its witten in the rage ability that the rage bonus is indeed morale. But morale only states uninteligent creatures do not benefit from it, no word about inteligent undead
You need to re read barbarian, Rage ability. It is there, you probably missed it in your zeal to make your awesome build work.
okay yeh, found it as well. So why does morale not affect Undead? They feel hunger, pain, instinct, ferocity could give them a morale bonus.
Also morale says it doesn't affect unintelligent creatures. Also there is stuff like the threnoderic metamagic and dirge bards which can mind affect undead, so if they can why shouldn't an undead be able to mind affect itself.
Undead have "Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms)."
I do get where you all are coming from, but I don't share the general believe that that is how it works °-°. Immunity is a defensive ability that hinders the suffering from any negative condition through mind affecting abilities. Rage is no affliction but a buff.
A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on school, level, or save type), and other effects. A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect.
Idiot case, I simply take 2 levels in dirge bard and be able to mind affect myself and other undead?
with the rule of resistances and immunities affecting ones own abilities a dhampir bard would need to pass a roll against his resistances to be affected by his own inspire courage etc. It doesn't make any sense.
I do get where you all are coming from, but I don't share the general believe that that is how it works °-°. Immunity is a defensive ability that hinders the suffering from any negative condition through mind affecting abilities. Rage is no affliction but a buff.
A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on school, level, or save type), and other effects. A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect.
Idiot case, I simply take 2 levels in dirge bard and be able to mind affect myself and other undead?
It isn't a matter of you sharing the opinion, that is how it works however you feel about it. Immunity isn't split between good or bad, it is a blanket ability that blocks all of it. Again, that is just how it is and you need to be mindful of it to make sure you build is able to function usefully.
thats like everybody saying the sky is green while looking through green glasses. Unless I find a proof that this is how it is im not gonna accept it even if it seems that way. My build functions completely fine without being an undead, I am just bothered by how immunity seems to be interpreted by everyone. It just seems wrong to me.
I can't find a specific rule if you won't trust the immunity definition, but I think you're incapable of getting the morale bonuses.
Dirge Bard won't help. It says it only affects spells and it would only be Bard spells at that.
with the rule of resistances and immunities affecting ones own abilities a dhampir bard would need to pass a roll against his resistances to be affected by his own inspire courage etc. It doesn't make any sense.
Some choices are sub standard, you just don't make them when building a character. Not everything matched with anything is a viable option in this game. There are things that mechanically won't work or will not function well, don't make those choices, even if it doesn't make sense to you. The rules are there, sometimes they don't make sense to people... "Oh well"
next people gonna tell me a bard must roll a fortitude save against his own Sound Burst or be stunned >.>
well its not like i can prove the entire community wrong even if i were to be right xDDD so in the end its all up to gm call, like always. I bet I can get a friendly guy to let me play a bloor raging undead and if not I show him the pidgeon tengus special ability no one knows about.
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I only give advice RAW. RAW, only ghouls will get ghoul sorcerer bloodline to add the stacking of dc to their natural attacks, no other race, or you will be limited to number of uses per day. Even dhampir and darakhul do not.
If your GM rules otherwise, those are houserules, and will make my advice irrelevant.
Should I be your gm, I would not allow undead PCs to be playable as it is quite unbalancing, since undead immunities are really very good, and you're essentially immune to everything from enchantment school of magic. Not to mention poison, disease and ability damage/drain. Even if you somehow convinced me to allow you to play an undead character, asking for some parts of undead traits to be waived for your benefit is blatant power gaming and I would ask you rethink your character concept.
And ahaha. The level 20 undead bloodrager bloodline does not give you immunity to mind affecting. Which means, level 20 undead bloodragers can still rage happily. Neither does the undead sorcerer bloodline, which means they could cast rage on themselves and still benefit from it.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/paizo---bloodrage r-bloodlines/undead
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines -from-paizo/undead-bloodline
ahahaha yeh nice -.- its 6 am currently and I have spend the entire last day creating about 10 different builds like the above until I finished with that bloodrager, so no reason to laugh about a guy half awake.
If you would rule undead to be unplayable I would simply play a kitsune instead, or a tengu, or a dhampir etc. etc.
Althoug the darakhul which i wanted to play is not all, oh im undead and strong, but yeh. -4 to everything in sunlight. Not to mention i would be fine with having him undead resistance on top of that.
Oh well, this topic is pretty much finished, lets all go to bed already xD
"Type: Undead. You have the undead subtype and its associated traits." Full stop doesn't work. It's not like any bloodline, it IS undead type. It then lists SOME examples, not everything.
Here's everything from the bestiary listing on undead:
An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
No Constitution score. Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution(such as when calculating a breath weapon’s DC).
Darkvision 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
Immunity to bleed, death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
Not subject to nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Constitution, Dexterity, and Strength), as well as to exhaustion and fatigue effects.
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature's Intelligence score.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but is immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points.
Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.
Per the spell magic jar: "Undead creatures are powered by negative energy. Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls." This is an important sentence when considering any spells or effects which reference "souls."
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THe bonuses from a rage are Morale bonuses. Undead (along with some other creature types) are immune to Morale bonuses. That's what JustaMort was getting at. Were you an undead, such as a ghoul, you'd be immune to the bonuses of the Bloodrage. At least, some of them.
Monster codex says that undead barbarians can benefit from rage bonuses to strength and con, and actually get a cha bonus instead of con
^I love you mate. Knew it.
could you maybe tell me where exacty that is said so I can rub it into anyones face that goes against the raging undead?
could you maybe tell me where exacty that is said so I can rub it into anyones face that goes against the raging undead?
At the end of the vampire barbarian stat block at page 241 of the Monster Codex:
Undead Barbarian An undead creature with the ability to enter a rage gains the morale bonuses from rage despite being immune to morale effects. The bonus to Constitution from the rage applies to an undead creature's Charisma instead.
dude your a god, I KNEW this was how it works, everything about undead Immunities says so. HA \(°0°)/ ima send this baby at everything!
could you maybe tell me where exacty that is said so I can rub it into anyones face that goes against the raging undead?At the end of the vampire barbarian stat block at page 241 of the Monster Codex:
Undead Barbarian An undead creature with the ability to enter a rage gains the morale bonuses from rage despite being immune to morale effects. The bonus to Constitution from the rage applies to an undead creature's Charisma instead.
Which is a monster's special ability, meaning it's not the norm.
Honestly though, if your DM is willing to let you play that powerful of a race I highly doubt he'd mind letting you have that special ability.
Undead Barbarian An undead creature with the ability to enter a rage gains the morale bonuses from rage despite being immune to morale effects. The bonus to Constitution from the rage applies to an undead creature's Charisma instead.Which is a monster's special ability, meaning it's not the norm.
Honestly though, if your DM is willing to let you play that powerful of a race I highly doubt he'd mind letting you have that special ability.
The wording of the ability "An undead creature" indicates that is a general ability and not specific of the single monster. Otherwise it would have said "This undead" or "Any undead with this ability"
THe bonuses from a rage are Morale bonuses. Undead (along with some other creature types) are immune to Morale bonuses. That's what JustaMort was getting at. Were you an undead, such as a ghoul, you'd be immune to the bonuses of the Bloodrage. At least, some of them.Monster codex says that undead barbarians can benefit from rage bonuses to strength and con, and actually get a cha bonus instead of con
He he a bit to the good side for bloodragers i would say.
this was obvious to me from the very start, now I have legit paizo paper writings to give my words the power of legit.
Here for everyone unable to find it:
http://i.imgur.com/tXGff6P.png
That is the special ability of a specific creature. Undead are generally immune to Morale bonuses, which includes the barbarian's rage. If this weren't the case, there wouldn't be a spell to specifically allow undead to benefit from those bonuses.
Unliving Rage vs. Rage
That is the special ability of a specific creature. Undead are generally immune to Morale bonuses, which includes the barbarian's rage. If this weren't the case, there wouldn't be a spell to specifically allow undead to benefit from those bonuses.
Unliving Rage vs. Rage
Spell vs Class feature or monster ability. This is not "An undead with the ability to enter a rage" much like a wizard is not able to qualify for feats that require flight speed because he is able to cast Fly
I feel like the line is pretty clearly drawn here. Some folks will see this as one creatures ability and some won't. I don't imagine that I can convince you otherwise, not do I really see a gain in doing so. You aren't going to convince me otherwise, which is fine as I'd never allow an undead PC so my ruling on this is moot.
I imagine there are plenty of poorly phrased monster abilities out there that folks could take as writ if they so chose and change the nature of the game at large.
Lost Lich, have fun with the PC however you wind up rolling them out.
For the INTENT of that ability, it would be pretty lame for a Book designed for having monsters with class levels including a creature with a unique ability.
The Undead Rage is a spell as the spell Rage, the spell Rage does not give the user the ability to Barbarian Rage, but just the mods of it. Bloodragers that are already raging can even use that to rage harder xDDD
Also I found several Paizo Monsters now such as the Ghoul Barbarian that have rage powers and even show the stats increase while raging, which implies that they can indeed rage, although they do not show the Monster Codex "undead barbarian" special ability.
Therefore it should be assumed that undead do always benefit from self incurred rage.
Or some of the writers are not rule aces. But this is no problem of your you just need your GM to buy it. Good luck with that and dont forget to come back and tell how it goes.
obviously both my gms so far said: undead level 1, hell no, not buying that. So for now I accepted it and told them, okay in that case im gonna play a kobold bloodrager dragon disciple with the eldritch ghoul heritage that wants to return to his roots aka. going dracolich, have fun handling me after level 12
obviously both my gms so far said: undead level 1, hell no, not buying that. So for now I accepted it and told them, okay in that case im gonna play a kobold bloodrager dragon disciple with the eldritch ghoul heritage that wants to return to his roots aka. going dracolich, have fun handling me after level 12
how is that gonna be great after 12?
Cap. Darlin lets be honest here, rule of cool. Being an undead dragon beats everything else. Also I just stated a random level. But yeh in comparison to the undead i showed up there? A tail attack to the claws/gore/bite and i do believe even 2 wing a attacks, able to reach huge size, being an undead mof&&$ing dracolich, nauseating bite attacks and a mof$~$ing breath weapon. Isn't this pretty much every nerds wet dream? The rule of cool is all over this.
Moospuh, we know.
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Because most of us consider Monster Codex a Splatbook and not part of the official sources.
Kobolds have a -4 adjustment to their strength, and dracolich does not change your ability scores any nor your size.
Dracolich has a +4 level adjustment, so you will be 4 levels behind the party, as well as either a) Getting into a whole lot of trouble to make your phylactery or b) Spending a huge chunk of your money on it or maybe both.
Please see the full dracolich template down here (3.5 rules):
http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/dracolich.shtml
Not to mention ghoul bloodline specifically stated Ghouls, not dracoliches and undead of god-knows-what variety. You're twisting the rules to gain benefit to yourself.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines -from-paizo/ghoul-sorcerer-bloodline
"If you're a ghoul with this bloodline, instead of gaining this ability, your levels in sorcerer stack with your racial Hit Dice when determining the DC of your paralysis and disease special abilities."
Form of the dragon II from dragon disciple only lets you turn into a large dragon.
Because most of us consider Monster Codex a Splatbook and not part of the official sources.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Monster Codex (OGL)
It's mainline like the NPC Codex or a Bestiary