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The problem, KC, is mostly that the work required to make mundanes punch at the level of spellcasters pretty much involves neutering the spellcasters entirely. THAT is the problem.
It is completely irrelevant that Buffy can beat up demons in her story, or that Batman can beat up Mr. Freeze. Because if you were to stat Buffy or Batman up as a Fighter in PF, they wouldn't last a round vs. any opponent that could take advantage of their system-mandated terrible Will save, their reliance on being able to stand in place to be able to be a real threat, or even just the fact that they can't fly.
You are not contributing at all to the discussion when you say "WELL, THEY COULD FIX IT!" Well, it's been years and there have been attempts made. And each of those attempts is met with OMG ANIME WEEABOOS GET OUT.
I... well, I kind of assumed we were talking about pathfinder. I mean, if I change all wizards so that their most powerful display of magic was a rainbow rabbit puppet dance, then I guess your average street tough could take them out. I was trying to take your argument in the best light I could.
Okay, I'll be super explicit then. If you have spell casters as capable as the ones that currently exist within the game that we are actually discussing(because why would we be talking about any other sort), then someone who is great with a sword in a realistic(non mythic hero/anime) way will not be equivalent.
If that is true, then the above mundane swordsman is not a hero within the context of the game because of the issues that naturally stem from someone having a binary choice like can I stab it? yes/no While another player in the same game has an effect on the narrative of the story in as many areas as he/she cares to dabble in.
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Just out of curiosity, is anyone posting here that has issues with the Fighter's lack of 'oomph' tried writing up a small list of unique abilities, Supernatural or otherwise, and testing these changes to see if it works for your games?
If so, what was the end result, both for in-game balance and players being on board with the ideas? Hell, I'd love to see some Fighter's hit an enemy so hard he goes all Wheel of Time on the targets ass and literally erases that creature from the time stream, never existed type of bad-assery.
On the other hand, 14*5.5+30+10 = 116; this presumes a 14 CON a 15th level fighter can be hit directly, in the face, and still be standing with no reduction in combat ability. That... seems super-heroic to me.
That's because HP isn't being hit in the face. HP is your general awesomeness letting you have near-misses instead of being stabbed. Being actually stabbed directly is represented by a a coup de grace.
There was a cool FAQ for Star Wars revised d20 where it was asked by a battle-tank, a rancor, and a level 10ish character all had the same HP. For the battle-tank, it's actually being hit each time. For the 10ish character, it's mostly near-misses and close calls. For the rancor it's a bit of both.
This really does not work.
A commoner can get healed from dying to full with a single jab of a CLW wand.
A level 20 barbarian can eat the entire wand and still be wounded.
Same thing for ability damage, ability drain, negative levels etc.
We know that the characters are actually surviving far more damage at higher levels because it takes more effort to heal them of the damage.
Yeah - that was actually one of the things I liked about 4th ed - healing was all % of health.
*before going into detail, just checking to see if anyone's mentioned that Star Wars d20 explicitly separated hit points and wound points... 54 is a lot of new posts...*
EDIT: Okay, finished, and no one pointed this out, though Snowblind did somewhat.
Here's the thing: nothing in the Pathfinder universe allows this to work out the way you're describing.
Swords deal 1d8 slashing damage. It does nothing on a miss.
Fire breath deals 20d10 fire damage. It does half on a successful save (or improved evasion; none with a successful save with evasion).
Cure spells heal 1d8 damage.
Compare:
Full plate has 50 hit points. This becomes broken at half hit points and "ruined" or "destroyed" at 0 hit points.
A winter wight has 270 hit points. Destroyed at 0 hit points, but has damage reduction (unless it's bludgeoning), fast healing, and vulnerability to fire (which means it takes twice as much damage from a hit).
A 15th level fighter has 116 hit points.
Intriguingly, all of them have AC (or "Armor Class") as well, which "epresents how hard it is for opponents to land a solid, damaging blow on you. It's the attack roll result that an opponent needs to achieve to hit you."
In the fire example, it's ruled, not by AC, but by a reflex saving throw, which represent "your ability to dodge area attacks and unexpected situations" instead.
It's pretty clear that things are being damaged by hit point loss. Originally, yes, hit points were an abstraction to represent both "ability to withstand physical punishment hit points (physique) and the immeasurable areas which involve the sixth sense and luck (fitness)", but in PF, they are explicitly "an abstraction signifying how robust and healthy a creature is at the current moment"
Star Wars d20, on the other hand, explicitly separates "hit points" (the luck/miss/etc portion) and "wound points" - effectively the wounds and vigor optional subsystem for PF that replaces hit points (the link of which, incidentally, directly contradicts the rest of the game, and contradicts established canon, as often happens with subsystems and side-articles*).
When we have conflicting statements, we get to choose - but one exists explicitly to introduce a "more realistic" subsystem, and the other agrees with everything else that's printed.
And I'm okay with that. Because otherwise, we've got wizards who are even more deadly than they are now, except for very, very weird and arbitrary GM fiat. And that's something that we can't even begin to approach as a "common ground" rules-wise.
* There's a very interesting article by Sean K. Reynolds in one Forgotten Realms supplement that describes why you might not want to stat out your deities, as mortals, clearly, "could never defeat them" ... *blink-blink*
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"Neutering the spellcasters entirely" is strong. The point of looking at genre examples is to look at ways it's been done in stories with an eye towards seeing if it could be done in RPGs as well.
It obviously can't be done in PF without changing the rules in some fashion. If you want fighters to remain mundane (or become even more so), then you have to weaken casters. It doesn't have to be to "rainbow rabbit puppet dance" level, but it does have to happen. Especially if you require fighters to be limited even by mundane standards - there's nothing that requires magic about having more skill points or better saves, for example.
Of course, suggestions of weakening casters get shot down as quickly as the yells of "OMG ANIME WEEABOOS GET OUT". My suggestion above to limit casters more by school was dismissed immediately as removing their legendary versatility - which was exactly the intent.
I hyperbole'd just a little. Seriously, just a little.
Fun story: the Spheres of Power 3pp system is turning out to bring most spellcasters down to T3 while still being flavorful and effective. It's a pretty cool deal. Combined with Path of War and Psionics, everybody is effective and heroic, but no individual is rocking game-ending phenomenal cosmic power!
Just out of curiosity, is anyone posting here that has issues with the Fighter's lack of 'oomph' tried writing up a small list of unique abilities, Supernatural or otherwise, and testing these changes to see if it works for your games?
If so, what was the end result, both for in-game balance and players being on board with the ideas? Hell, I'd love to see some Fighter's hit an enemy so hard he goes all Wheel of Time on the targets ass and literally erases that creature from the time stream, never existed type of bad-assery.
I've played in games where the fighter/magician problem was addressed, although I do not sadly have those notes any longer (been 30 years). In more recent years I've limited wizards and other spell casters in interesting ways -- and people still take them. I've had rules tested like "you take HP damage equal to the level of the spell cast, unable to be healed by magical means." People still wanted to play wizards.
That is how good magic is: no matter how much you limit spell casters, there are players that will weigh the power versus the inconvenience and still choose casters. We've allowed martial classes chances to dispel spells and disrupt magic as well, and that worked as well.
Basically tables I've played with as well as myself have played with all sorts of rule changes, whether stolen from other games or made up and tried out. I certainly am not waiting for Paizo or anyone else to create them for me -- I mean, it's my game (or my players and mine) and I do not have to worry about satisfying the masses in PFS.
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Make all the opposition school spells count as if they were two levels higher for purposes of the spell slot they take up.What would make sense to me is if Wizards could only cast from 2-3 schools of magic at first level and unlocked other schools of magic by spending feats. That way, they have to choose between versatility or specialization; do I learn other schools of magic or do I make the spells from the schools I do know harder to resist?Feats like that already exist as choices a Wizard has to make. Also keep in mind that currently, a specialist has to pick two schools where they have to expend two spell slots to have a spell from either of those schools memorized. Wizards are meant to be versatile, that's been part and parcel for that class for years. As restrictive as I have seen it get was 2nd ED: Pick a specialty, now you get two banned schools. You didn't even get a choice in the matter, it was already pre-ordained by the PHB.
So they would only have access to the 7th lvl spells from those schools; I can actually get behind that, instead of the 2 spell-slot penalty but still having full access, it only takes one slot, but limits the potential for those schools. That's not a bad way to change things around.
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Just out of curiosity, is anyone posting here that has issues with the Fighter's lack of 'oomph' tried writing up a small list of unique abilities, Supernatural or otherwise, and testing these changes to see if it works for your games?
If so, what was the end result, both for in-game balance and players being on board with the ideas? Hell, I'd love to see some Fighter's hit an enemy so hard he goes all Wheel of Time on the targets ass and literally erases that creature from the time stream, never existed type of bad-assery.
I've played in games where the fighter/magician problem was addressed, although I do not sadly have those notes any longer (been 30 years). In more recent years I've limited wizards and other spell casters in interesting ways -- and people still take them. I've had rules tested like "you take HP damage equal to the level of the spell cast, unable to be healed by magical means." People still wanted to play wizards.
That is how good magic is: no matter how much you limit spell casters, there are players that will weigh the power versus the inconvenience and still choose casters. We've allowed martial classes chances to dispel spells and disrupt magic as well, and that worked as well.
Basically tables I've played with as well as myself have played with all sorts of rule changes, whether stolen from other games or made up and tried out. I certainly am not waiting for Paizo or anyone else to create them for me -- I mean, it's my game (or my players and mine) and I do not have to worry about satisfying the masses in PFS.
Good to see some folks taking the initiative on making changes that everyone at the table is on-board with. I have seen a lot of posts regarding this, that and the other regarding lack of 'wow' factor for Fighters versus full casters, specifically the Wizard.
Some offer suggestions, most others gripe and offer nothing. Gutting the class is not how it should be approached but creative limitations are not a problem.
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I guess the point, then, is that if you want to run a game within that sort of context you would need to take magical classes off the table in terms of player character choice.And this is the core of the problematic argument, assuming you're talking to me. Why is it impossible to have gritty fighters in the same setting as magic-users?
Well, the problem isn't Gritty fighters in the same setting as magic-users, as it is Gritty fighters in the same setting as Heroic magic-users.
In a game system where equality between characters in a party is something sought after, the ratio of Grit to Heroism needs to be even. If wizards are allowed be Heroic, warriors shouldn't be forced to be Gritty.
I think this is the crux of the problem. You can be a gritty magic-user if you like. But with martials, Grit is pretty much your only option. In a system like Rifts/Palladium, where you can literally have a hobo and a demigod on the same team, this is okay. But in systems like 3.P where you're supposed to have at least rough parity between party members, you get complaints.
I'm more approaching this argument from the point of view of a writer than that of a GM, for the record. I really don't like hearing anything to the effect of "Mages, ergo realism is invalid." And while that is hyperbole, it's not dishonest. Nor is it strawmanning (has anybody said that yet? I hope not. Straw men are the nazis of the 2010s). I'm trying to distil the point to show my views on it. That's where I believe it leads, and it's where I believe it's based on.
Not so much "If Mages, then no Realism"; so much as it's "If she can be Lina Inverse, I should be able to be Gaurry Gabriev."
"Neutering the spellcasters entirely" is strong. The point of looking at genre examples is to look at ways it's been done in stories with an eye towards seeing if it could be done in RPGs as well.
It obviously can't be done in PF without changing the rules in some fashion. If you want fighters to remain mundane (or become even more so), then you have to weaken casters. It doesn't have to be to "rainbow rabbit puppet dance" level, but it does have to happen. Especially if you require fighters to be limited even by mundane standards - there's nothing that requires magic about having more skill points or better saves, for example.
Of course, suggestions of weakening casters get shot down as quickly as the yells of "OMG ANIME WEEABOOS GET OUT". My suggestion above to limit casters more by school was dismissed immediately as removing their legendary versatility - which was exactly the intent.
Jeff pretty much sums up my views on this as it applies to Pathfinder. I'm gonna give up trying to explain the rest of what I was saying on this thread—the more I try, the more people show up who don't know the context of what I'm trying to do, and it never eeeeends.
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In my experience, cheese has several incarnations:
1) Cheddar - This is your garden-variety "stop liking what I don't like!" cheese. It can be applied to monkey grip, someone who wants to TWF with a two-hander and kicks, or even just a monk with a sword. The most common cheese, it goes with virtually anything! Can be part of a balanced diet, but if taken to an extreme you can lose count of your calories pretty fast.
Etcetera...
And of course there are so many more kinds of cheese, too many to count.
Swiss cheese? Full of holes? :)
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Something is really annoying me.
I have read a lot of Conan books.
Some combination of these is why Conan manages to defeat a Caster in the books (many of these apply to the monsters he fights as well).
a)The caster is incredibly arrogant and stupid, giving Conan a chance to do something surprising and ballsy.
b)Conan has or finds a maguffin that saves him (this includes having a friendly caster along to protect him, which happens on occasion)
c)Help shows up and saves Conan from being killed by the caster in the nick of time (typically this works because the caster is distracted).
d) The caster is really weak e.g. can only put up a small force shield for a short time, and is apparently incapable of short range offensive magic (which in the Conan setting frequently amounts to "Lighting bolt/Magic Missile, you have a 3 inch hole in your chest, GG").
e)Conan sneaks up and gets a surprise round. Repeated broadsword stabbings are reasonably effective against casters. This frequently plays out the same as c), but with Conan doing the saving.
Conan cannot go "Toe to Toe" with a caster. Almost every time he has tried he has lost horribly. Often the only reason he survives is that casters in the Conan setting frequently don't seem to understand that "Death is not too good for (their) enemies". Seriously, Conan is the most ballsy, brave, strong, heroic, lucky SoB in the entire Conan setting, so much so that by the time he ends up King of Aquilonia he is a legend throughout the known world. He is literally favored by the god of light. Still, for most casters it's very clear that the game is theirs to lose, and they lose it because they are generally power hungry idiots who have a complete lack of genre savvy paranoia that the typical PC wizard displays.
In a game of pathfinder, wizards and clerics and what have you do not have any compulsion to act like morons.
They will not betray Conan, the person who saved them moments ago, by leaping to a nearby pull rope and then proceeding to gloat to the barbarian about the horrible death he is about to experience, giving Conan the opportunity to introduce Mr Wizard to the concepts of "Surprise Round", "Throw Anything", "Crit with a heavy stool" and "This isn't PF, so your brains are staining the lush exotic carpets".
They will not throw the barbarian-turned-king into a dungeon hell scape to be eaten by their pet giant snake. Especially not a dungeon that is holding their former mentor and TN wizard with NG leanings in a thought draining demonic plant.
They will not leave the barbarian that is invading their place of residence to their lackey strangler while they play "Dance of the biting serpents" or whatever with a woman the barbarian is trying to save. Not in a room where they are unable to hear the snapping sound of the barbarian breaking their lackey's neck like a dry twig, and ESPECIALLY not in a room with curtains that allow a stealthy attacker to come within broadsword range of the caster while staying in concealment.
I should point out that PF casters are a lot more powerful than most Conan casters. Conan going up against a PF caster would experience a brief, sticky end as the caster drops him in a spiked pit, turns him to stone, dissolves the stone in acid, disintegrates the acid, feeds the acid dust to a demonic beasty, disintegrates the beasty, and casts what's left into the astral plane in 20 separate bags.
Saying you want to play Conan basically amounts to "I wanna be scary for mundane dudes that run up to me and eat broadsword, but die to a caster unless said caster is a moron". If you feel this way, then congratulations, I have news for you. Pathfinder is the system for you.
Something is really annoying me.
I have read a lot of Conan books.
Some combination of these is why Conan manages to defeat a Caster in the books (many of these apply to the monsters he fights as well).
a)The caster is incredibly arrogant and stupid, giving Conan a chance to do something surprising and ballsy.
b)Conan has or finds a maguffin that saves him (this includes having a friendly caster along to protect him, which happens on occasion)
c)Help shows up and saves Conan from being killed by the caster in the nick of time (typically this works because the caster is distracted).
d) The caster is really weak e.g. can only put up a small force shield for a short time, and is apparently incapable of short range offensive magic (which in the Conan setting frequently amounts to "Lighting bolt/Magic Missile, you have a 3 inch hole in your chest, GG").
e)Conan sneaks up and gets a surprise round. Repeated broadsword stabbings are reasonably effective against casters. This frequently plays out the same as c), but with Conan doing the saving.
Conan cannot go "Toe to Toe" with a caster. Almost every time he has tried he has lost horribly. Often the only reason he survives is that casters in the Conan setting frequently don't seem to understand that "Death is not too good for (their) enemies". Seriously, Conan is the most ballsy, brave, strong, heroic, lucky SoB in the entire Conan setting, so much so that by the time he ends up King of Aquilonia he is a legend throughout the known world. He is literally favored by the god of light. Still, for most casters it's very clear that the game is theirs to lose, and they lose it because they are generally power hungry idiots who have a complete lack of genre savvy paranoia that the typical PC wizard displays.
In a game of pathfinder, wizards and clerics and what have you do not have any compulsion to act like morons.
They will not betray Conan, the person who saved them moments ago, by leaping to a nearby pull rope and then...
So this is basically the funny version of what I've been trying to say(and clearly failing, by all accounts).
I recall only one direct willpower test between Conan and a wizard and that was at the end of his career when he finally faced down Thoth-Amon in one.
He lost it. The only reason he survived is because his son came up behind the bastard and shanked him.
So, willpower is definitely the caster thing.
But basically, yes, Conan overcame casters by being friends with them, cunning, a McGuffin, or just plain surprising the arrogant SOB's with his temerity for being willing to gut them. He rarely, if ever, tried to take one head on.
===Aelryinth
Folks dont want to be conan anymore they want to be super heroic now. Problem is game has one foot in conan and the others in supers. I think the best case scenario would be a system thats modular enough to dial up and down the power level.
I think it would help if E6 was codified into the system. Everything 6 and below is Conan and Aragorn territory, and after that you just get increasingly more powerful, until you get to "I have a pretty good chance at killing things that grant spells to divine casters" territory at level 20.
Of course, suggestions of weakening casters get shot down as quickly as the yells of "OMG ANIME WEEABOOS GET OUT".
Anime spellcasters toned down? What anime have you been watching?
I don't think I've seen an anime in the past ten years where the caster wasn't, in Pathfinder terms, a Full BAB Magus/Bloodrager/Spellslinger with a firepower rating around "Modern Main Battle Tank" at the very least by around a third of the way through the first cour.
Ah, I see. :)
It's a bit of a conundrum, isn't it? Personally, I say provide options for both. So if players want gritty Low Fantasy or high-powered shonen-style action, they can do so.
There is an anime (and visual novel) where a guy who basically only has levels of Fighter (and very high stats all around) IS the strongest class. However, he is a Fighter with a collection of Major Artifacts (more than a thousand of them), one of which lets him shoot Major Artifacts like bullets at enemies. Probably doesn't help that he's also a demigod, though that never really comes into play in anything significant.
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I don't know if Gilgamesh even counts as a Fighter. Did he ever actually fight anyone (outside of Gate of Babylon spam) beyond that one sword fight with Shirou in UBW (which then devolved into shooting energy beams at each other)?
King of Heroes, do you have enough weapons in stock? indeed.
There is an anime (and visual novel) where a guy who basically only has levels of Fighter (and very high stats all around) IS the strongest class. However, he is a Fighter with a collection of Major Artifacts (more than a thousand of them), one of which lets him shoot Major Artifacts like bullets at enemies. Probably doesn't help that he's also a demigod, though that never really comes into play in anything significant.
Tsk!
We won't slam you for being an anime fan. Mention the name and the character when you post, please! :)
===Aelryinth
Ah, I see. :)
It's a bit of a conundrum, isn't it? Personally, I say provide options for both. So if players want gritty Low Fantasy or high-powered shonen-style action, they can do so.
I'm not sure how viable that is in PF. Other than simple dividing it by low level and high level, which isn't really providing options. In general I agree, it's just that the high power stuff is too baked into the system to easily remove.
Pathfinder really isn't built as a generic system. It's designed as high to epic fantasy. Even the low levels aren't very gritty without work.
Just banning martials from having cool powers doesn't really change that.
For Martials, low and high fantasy tends to end up being something very simple - mobility.
If martials can readily jump higher then their own head, run as fast or faster then a horse, end up with 'blink' movement, and can eventually walk/run on air, or stand on the side or upside down of things, you're pretty much in Anime territory.
The other marker is ranged attacks with melee weapons. The 'windblade' is the most famous and notable, but ranged attacks with palm and fist strikes factors in rapidly. That way, your martial can be a master of one weapon because its both ranged and personal.
From that point, it just scales up in effect and damage until it rivals anything a wizard can do. Superstrength, superspeed, etc.
But movement and ranged melee are basically the primary impacts of high martial fantasy.
=+Aelryinth
The problem, KC, is mostly that the work required to make mundanes punch at the level of spellcasters pretty much involves neutering the spellcasters entirely. THAT is the problem.
And that's a load of horsecrap. Neutering "entirely"? Pffft.
(Yeah, I know it was hyperbole, and I'm acknowledging that. But deeply, deeply inappropriate... and also part of the problem.)
Well, it's been years and there have been attempts made.
Horsecrap #2. The closest 'attempt' that was every made was a bit of 4e (kind of successful - but with consequences) and 5e (even more successful).
Neuter. The. Casters. (Or to be more specific: neuter the caster's tools.) Because that's where the problem lies. Not the other way around.
(I also get that the retort will be "but we're talking about Pathfinder". Well... that ship has sailed. Boosting the martials to the power needed to be equivalent to casters is just as unrealistic/not-going-to-happen as neutering the casters.)
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Path of War shows that you can boost martials closer to spellcaster power levels. Spheres of Power shows that you can very easily cut down spellcaster versatility without it being unfun or ineffective. The stolid clinging to the "NO, MARTIALS CANNOT HAVE NICE THINGS!" (in the same breath as "BUT YOU MUST CUT CASTERS OFF AT THE KNEES!" even!) is silly and likely counterproductive.
Honestly, if I could play in games that were 100% PoW/DSP Psionics/SoP I would be all the happier.
DnD and Pathfinder by the association are just superhero games disguised as fantasy. Your early levels are your origin story, you turn superhuman on the way and eventually you are basically the Avengers as you save the world(s).
Then you hit mythic and jump from Marvel to DC by becoming the Justice League. And there is a good reason why you can never include people like The Punisher in these groups because it just doesn't work.
And this is all legacy issues. So many other systems have embraced solid scale where they place their system. Shadowrun runners might in the end up decked in most advanced cyberware and all the plastic explosive they could ever want, but they will never challenge the big players of the world. Most powerful of Nanos in Numenera can control the weather and move mountains, but that is it. 40k has a whole different system for each major power level leap.
But d20 must stuff 3-4 different power levels into 20 levels, making progression both slow and too fast. Slow as in you get nothing until next level up and when that happens, the game dumps a whole chest of toys in your lap. Classes cross magical barriers and the whole nature of the adventure changes.
Now how do I get a bald eagle animal companion to my shield champion brawler?
Depends on what you want. You could neuter the casters to get a grittier more human game.
Or you could boost the martials to get a more wild super powered game.They're both valid approaches.
Possibly - depending on how it works within the CR system.
(It's my opinion that one is more valid than the other, needing fewer CR changes.)
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I don't think I've seen an anime in the past ten years where the caster wasn't, in Pathfinder terms, a Full BAB Magus/Bloodrager/Spellslinger with a firepower rating around "Modern Main Battle Tank" at the very least by around a third of the way through the first cour.
Hitsugi no Chaika.
Chaika also takes about a full round in PF terms to cast a spell, and you need a spell focus, her gundo, and a material component, magical fuel, or memories/xp to cast spells.
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I don't think I've seen an anime in the past ten years where the caster wasn't, in Pathfinder terms, a Full BAB Magus/Bloodrager/Spellslinger with a firepower rating around "Modern Main Battle Tank" at the very least by around a third of the way through the first cour.Hitsugi no Chaika.
Log Horizon! Though I'm not sure if that counts since it draws heavily from games of another kind. Shiroe behaves much like a Pathfinder-style God Wizard though, focusing on control/buff spells and being the tactical mind of the team.
Remember that 'city' in Pathfinder can be pretty small...:)
I think that hell storm or whatever spell can flatten a city. Not sure about the vaporize part, tho.
==Aelryinth
I'm playing a 16th level Wizard in LSJ. Please let me know where that Vaporize an Entire City With the Wave of My Hand spell is located.Personally, I think the more "absurd" martial powers should be considered Supernatural abilities. It's pretty easy to houserule, too.
That said, dual-wielding greataxes? Not really that much more absurd than a human being able to get a 30 Strength, or survive a fall into laval, or [arrow-related gripe]. Heroes are heroes. Choose your battles. Save your overthinking for the "I can split a mountain with my sword!" or "I can cause earthquakes with my hammer!" abilities.
odd that the mountain-splitting and earthquaking are seen as less possible while the bearded invisible flying guy calls in angels en masse to battle cthulu.
why cant everyone be a heroic demigod at high levels? at the upper levels you are regularly worldhopping and wheeling and dealing with planar overlords, why the hell CANT i play a properly Fantastic martial? Why do I only get to affect the world only within the reach of my weapon, while the wizard can wave a hand and vaporize a city. or summon an elder god. or change the weather. or stop time. or or or or OR OR OR
why is any of that absurd when the party wizard can just up and turn into a dragon when he wants.
Yes I'm mad.
I don't know about vaporizing, but I believe you could flatten one pretty rapidly with Limited Wish->Control Winds along side prayer beads and an orange prism ioun stone as CL boosters.
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There is an anime (and visual novel) where a guy who basically only has levels of Fighter (and very high stats all around) IS the strongest class. However, he is a Fighter with a collection of Major Artifacts (more than a thousand of them), one of which lets him shoot Major Artifacts like bullets at enemies. Probably doesn't help that he's also a demigod, though that never really comes into play in anything significant.Tsk!
We won't slam you for being an anime fan. Mention the name and the character when you post, please! :)
===Aelryinth
Anime: Fate Stay Night
Character: Gilgamesh
The Tower of Druaga anime does a very good job at separating the roles and power between "martials" and "spellcasters" while keeping them roughly equal.
The people who don't wield magic generally demonstrate Hawkeye/Black Widow/Batman levels of durability and skill.
The people who wield magic usually channel it through an implement and have a very specific specialty such as barriers, fire, lightning, or healing.
In the end formation and teamwork is required to accomplish anything as teams made purely of one type of warrior have significant trouble progressing through the Tower.
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If martials can readily jump higher then their own head, run as fast or faster then a horse, end up with 'blink' movement, and can eventually walk/run on air, or stand on the side or upside down of things, you're pretty much in Anime territory.
Ancient Myths, Legends, and classical Tall Tales did that kinda thing long before Anime existed, you know.
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If martials can readily jump higher then their own head, run as fast or faster then a horse, end up with 'blink' movement, and can eventually walk/run on air, or stand on the side or upside down of things, you're pretty much in Anime territory.Ancient Myths, Legends, and classical Tall Tales did that kinda thing long before Anime existed, you know.
True dat.
If a dude jumping higher than his own head is too much for him to believe I wonder how he responded the first time a Wizard flew 60 ft into the air, dismissed a Devil to his native plane, then used a quickened Angelic aspect to become a shining beacon of glory to everyone around him.
Meanwhile the party fighter lamented the fact that his opponent was 10 feat away and could only spend his standard action to do 2d6+X damage and his swift action to weep.
edit: I would like to say that no class in the game is more "anime" than a Sorcerer. You get "special powers" that grow and progress with you. You make special secret hand signs while shouting magical words to unleash powerful juts-I mean "spells." You fly and rend reality and logic easily and without remorse.
On the other hand we have martial maneuvers that do simple stuff like pole-vault 30 ft into the air so you can smack a dude, or empower your blade with holy power against evil.
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edit: I would like to say that no class in the game is more "anime" than a Sorcerer. You get "special powers" that grow and progress with you. You make special secret hand signs while shouting magical words to unleash powerful juts-I mean "spells." You fly and rend reality and logic easily and without remorse.
Sounds a bit like Super-Sentai... >.>
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I was thinking more Naruto or DBZ, but yeah. It's pretty sentai too.
Are you as excited for Chroma Squad as I am?
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edit: I would like to say that no class in the game is more "anime" than a Sorcerer. You get "special powers" that grow and progress with you. You make special secret hand signs while shouting magical words to unleash powerful juts-I mean "spells." You fly and rend reality and logic easily and without remorse.Sounds a bit like Super-Sentai... >.>
Someone should make a party that's just 5 different Dragon Disciples with different dragon colors.
GO GO DRAGON RANGERS!