| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Though I don't often do this, because most non-believers find it irritating, I'll answer with a Scriptural quote, Isaiah 1:18:
"'Come now, and let us reason together,' says THE LORD. 'Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be made white as snow.'"
I can't speak for any other non-believers, but I find it irritating because in order for the bible to be divinely inspired (as it claims), we must pre-suppose the existence of god. Using the bible to prove god exists is therefore a necessarily circular argument.
So yeah...I don't think you'll get much traction citing the bible to an atheist. :P
But we've veered way off track for this thread, so I'll excuse myself.
I agree.
Fortunately, I did nothing of the sort. I simply quoted Scripture in answer to a question posed, because it seemed germane. We were discussing the character of God in context, not the question of His existence—so your irritation is, in this case, misplaced.
I'm not actually irritated in this case, because I know you were not explicitly arguing for the existence of God.
I guess I thought was implied in my reply was this: I appreciate that the bible has literary and archaeological value; however, unless we first prove god exists, I see no reason to consider the bible authoritative on matters such as what god does/doesn't expect of us (which I believe you were discussing). In short: You effectively take on the burden of proving god's existence when you start quoting him and expect an atheist to care. :P
But again, we should probably take this to a separate thread (or better yet, PMs) if you want to continue.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It can certainly be useful...in explaining what the doctrine and beliefs are.
Ah...that makes sense.
I need to learn to read in the implied "I believe..." in front of people statements, rather than taking them as some sort of argument.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Even if you don't consider the Bible authoritative or significant evidence for God's existence, you must nevertheless acknowledge that it speaks directly to the character of a Judeo-Christian's perception of God, which was entirely on point in responding to thejeff's comments.
Thus, it's entirely appropriate and logical to care if only in this context, whether you believe in God or not.
Yup, I got there; I was just riding the slow bus. ;-)
Edit: And I just got your last reply. I really need to start reading threads backwards before replying. :P
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's possible to believe in God, but not worship Him. A concept somewhat obscured by the constant use of faith and belief as near synonyms.Is it really? At least in God in a modern, western sense? Doesn't believing mean accepting the claims of infallibility and omniscience, in which case how could one not worship?
Probably getting off topic, but I'm not sure I can picture how that might work.
Easily. This is not to be anti anyone but:
I can believe that an ultimate god exists. That is is all powerful, all knowing and infallible. I can believe this and not worship him because in my mind with the world as it is and the traits he possesses he must be evil, at minimum in part.
I can also believe a being may be such things and still not be perfect, after all just because he is infallible (unable to make mistakes) does not mean he can't screw stuff up on purpose.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks for the acknowledgment.Your God wrote it.Leviticus ...You know the discussion's gone south when someone trots out Leviticus.
It also means that you can't ignore the things in Leviticus, just because they don't suit your interpretation of things.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I can believe that an ultimate god exists. That is is all powerful, all knowing and infallible. I can believe this and not worship him because in my mind with the world as it is and the traits he possesses he must be evil, at minimum in part.And we're back to theodicy.
Should I... stares at Epicurus Fiiiiine.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?
The long dead philosopher MADE me post it.
Not in any meaningful or interesting sense, I'm afraid. Remember that, for the vast majority of human history, God was a verifiable aspect of reality, and if you didn't act accordingly, your ship wouldn't make port. Science isn't about explaining away God; it's about explaining how the world works -- and if God is a part of the world, then certainly God's actions are a part of how the world works.
Oh, I don't disagree... Science never said god doesn't exist... Only that in its efforts to understand the world around us, it still hasn't found any verifiable evidence that points to the existence of a deity of any kind.
In any case... I'll leave the discussion for you guys... I'd rather not start discussing religion on an internet forum. ><'
I can believe that an ultimate god exists. That is is all powerful, all knowing and infallible. I can believe this and not worship him because in my mind with the world as it is and the traits he possesses he must be evil, at minimum in part.And we're back to theodicy.
Meh for me it is the part of my statement you left out that is the more interesting question.
IF god has the aforementioned traits god could be infallible and still intentionally do things halfway or intentionally incorrectly to watch the outcome, perhaps to test his own omnipotence/omnipresence, being all powerful all knowing and infallible does not mean you are immune to worries or doubts. In fact it could make your doubts worse.
Choosing to act or not is another matter beyond ability, and does lead some into theodicy and questions of the uncaring god/ the mechanisms of god, but those are not the only options. God could be lying. He might tell people something is the one true way allow and others will be punished and then leave us to do what we wish as a test with no intention of punishment. Instead "judgement" might simply separate those that get to go their own way from those that would rather stay. Going your own way might be a hell for those that stay even if it is not for those that leave.
How does quote go? Only the foolish are certain and the wise/smart know doubt?
In any event I have answered the question I was addressing and see no reason to defend or condemn it beyond what I have already done.
Being neither hot or cold, I spit thee from my mouth.
Being neither hot or cold, I spit thee from my mouth.
I am confused on what if any bearing this has on the current conversation. Would you please elaborate? I mean I realize where the quote comes from and the popular meanings of it today, but I fail to see how it touches on this subject.
I'm an atheist in real life who tends to play clerics, paladins and warpriest in game. Run that one by your player and watch his head explode.
Yup, me too. No gods in real life, but I do love me some warpriests, druids and inquisitors. Granted I tend to leave the deific aspects of druidry to the side, and go for ideals instead of deities for Inquisitors. Oh and my long-kept-as-an-undead-prisoner-by-other-undead-before being-released-and-subsequently-raised-to-be-an-undead-hunter Warpriest of Pharasma is openly scathing of "his" goddess. And my Gulgite nganga (Templar) kinda worked out her Lady was not the source of her power. Umm… yep, gods are great.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I write gods as sometimes even more fallible than mortals. They have a much bigger scope on which to screw up. Think of them as extremely powerful but distant wizards, with no more omniscience than you would expect from a master spellcaster.
This, of course, means there are lots of interesting things for the mortals to deal with! Enter the adventurers. It's far less fun if the gods make everything perfect all the time.
...being all powerful all knowing and infallible does not mean you are immune to worries or doubts.In point of fact it does. All-knowing means there is no doubt. What would there be to doubt? You know it already.
Um... no. Knowledge does not equal lack of doubt. Probably why they stick that infallible part on him (after all we can have knowledge on a subject and still make a mistake) knowledge allow is never enough to dispel doubt (Thomas would be an excellent example of this).
Look I can know what's going to happen and still want to test my knowledge (just because the Biblical God doesn't want us to test him doesn't mean he can't test himself) -- and even when he knows what will happen he still lets things happen (case in point Job, and Peter with the lies) in fact there are a couple times in the old testament we see god talking with and being persuaded to change his course -- (there is a lot to question about the absolutely all knowing end of things quite honestly if you check back further on source materials).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Fun fact: Jesus is nothing more than a false prophet for Jewish folk.
They still believe in God and the words of the Old Testament, quite many rather fervently. Other fun fact is that Judaism usually focuses much less on Hell than Christianity. The omnipotent deity is harsher to the living (compare his actions in the Old Testament to the ones in the New Testament), but from what I have seen and heard from an aspiring rabbi as well as some actual ones, that Paradise called Heaven awaits all folks minus the evil ones. As for what happens to them, that's kinda hard to say. However, being non-Jewish does NOT make you automatically evil. So long as you are more or less a decent person, God has no reason to send you to Hell.
|
Fun fact: Jesus is nothing more than a false prophet for Jewish folk.
They still believe in God and the words of the Old Testament, quite many rather fervently. Other fun fact is that Judaism usually focuses much less on Hell than Christianity. The omnipotent deity is harsher to the living (compare his actions in the Old Testament to the ones in the New Testament), but from what I have seen and heard from an aspiring rabbi as well as some actual ones, that Paradise called Heaven awaits all folks minus the evil ones. As for what happens to them, that's kinda hard to say. However, being non-Jewish does NOT make you automatically evil. So long as you are more or less a decent person, God has no reason to send you to Hell.
One of the reasons that I personally have less issues with Judaism than Christianity. The Jewish version of God seems a lot harsher, but in the end he's a lot less of a jerk than the Christian version.
The other reason being breath of knowledge...I know a lot more about Christianity than I do Judaism.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I was just thinking about it a bit and I think we (Christians) should probably have more trouble with the fact that we have to accept that "Good" is not an alignment that is appropriate for our God if we are basing it on the accounts from the bible than we do with fictional gods or atheism in the game. The best that we could hope for in D&D/Pathfinder is "Neutral". Generally speaking, I feel like that should probably be a harder thing for us to swallow than whether or not god exist at all. The simple fact that in D&D/Pathfinder, gods do not dictate morality and are subject to morality as much as anyone else.
Playing a game that without trying to says "You need to take a long hard look at your religion and its account of your God and decide where you stand on that" is at once jarring and beautiful at the same time. Without attempting to, it provokes thought and consideration rather than assumption.
It's kind of funny actually, because for all the bible-belt hatred spewed at the hobby, D&D, and fantasy in general over things like dragons, demons, devils, and magic, the single most provocative thing that any member of our faith will have to deal with is an indirect statement that our god as depicted by our religion is not a "Good" god, never has been, never will be, and how true that really is.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not my God, I voted for Kodos
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I was just thinking about it a bit and I think we (Christians) should probably have more trouble with the fact that we have to accept that "Good" is not an alignment that is appropriate for our God if we are basing it on the accounts from the bible than we do with fictional gods or atheism in the game.I think Isaiah 45:7 did all that just fine: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." And it said it 2,500 years before D&D.
Part of the job description that goes with being an omnipotent, omnipresent God. You're responsible for everything that happens ... but with an omniscient perspective that no other being possesses.
And that's two-thirds of my quota for Biblical quotes in this thread. (I reserve the right to one more if deemed necessary.)
Oh definitely. I'm just commenting on the fact that most kind of recoil at the idea that God is anything but rainbows and unicorns happy angels, or the idea that god can do no evil because anything God does is inherently good (which if we'd read our own scriptures more often is obviously not the case, like with your Isaiah quote).
I know most of my religious peers are made uncomfortable by some of my observations concerning our religion, and D&D/Pathfinder kind of throw those observations right into the faces of anyone involved and it doesn't even try to, it's just by sheer proxy of attempting to be nonbiased (though ever since 3.5, bias has begun to eek into it more and more).
Not my God, I voted for Kodos
Well I was referring to the god of a particular religion (the religion I mentioned when I said we [Christians]). Fear not, you can have your Kodos. :P
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It amazes me how long some threads get when the first response answers the question. ;)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If God is real and the creator of the universe it always seemed silly to judge him based on our morality to me anyway, seeing as our morality is mostly cultural and shifts with time anyway.
Not saying if he was real that would be an automatic reason to agree with him or worship him, just that unless he was simply somekind of mindless creative force he probably has a much better idea of what's in the universe then we do.
Also if God is really powerful but not omnipotent that might change things too. What if existence has some kind of universal laws that can't be superseded even by God?
In Mere Christianity Lewis argued that perhaps this is the best of all possible worlds, if true I find that kinda sad, but who knows, it might change things a bit if God really did do the best for us he possible could given the laws of existence.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It amazes me how long some threads get when the first response answers the question. ;)
One thing the internet teaches us is that no question is too stupid to consider, weigh, debate, and expand upon.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So long as you are more or less a decent person, God has no reason to send you to Hell.
Except the part in The New Testament of the Bible where Christ says, "The only way to the Father, is through the Son."
In Christianity, simply "being a good person" is not enough to get into Heaven, one must believe whole-heartedly that Christ is our Lord and Savior, and that he died on the cross for all of our sins, and was resurrected three days later...
Not saying you have to believe that, that's what free-will is all about...