Wait... what's PF2? I just got here and reading through 11 pages of this would literally make my eyes hurt.
Are they releasing a PF2?
Thanks, Tri.
Yikes... I have a bazillion books. Horrified to think that they are about to be paperweights :(
Granted... I wont be able to read them much longer anyway, so... eh. Will keep 'em for posterity, though. Gave away some of my D&D 2nd ed stuff and BOY WAS THAT A MISTAKE.
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Hey look at it this way, if 2e flops, they will go back to making 1e material.
Not likely....backwards is not really the directions to go. If 2E flops...they will just do 3e, and it will go even further away from 1E.
Thanks, Tri.
Yikes... I have a bazillion books. Horrified to think that they are about to be paperweights :(
Granted... I wont be able to read them much longer anyway, so... eh. Will keep 'em for posterity, though. Gave away some of my D&D 2nd ed stuff and BOY WAS THAT A MISTAKE.
They will only be paperweights if that's your choice. I have enough 1E material that I still haven't used to keep me going for a long time. And I can always go back to developing my own AP's, like we did in the old days.
So no need for me to move too 2E.
Thanks, Tri.
Yikes... I have a bazillion books. Horrified to think that they are about to be paperweights :(
Granted... I wont be able to read them much longer anyway, so... eh. Will keep 'em for posterity, though. Gave away some of my D&D 2nd ed stuff and BOY WAS THAT A MISTAKE.
They will only be paperweights if that's your choice. I have enough 1E material that I still haven't used to keep me going for a long time. And I can always go back to developing my own AP's, like we did in the old days.
So no need for me to move too 2E.
Very true.
I thought the unchained books were basically 2nd ed substitutes. I love the poison and disease rules in those (MPGA, lol), and my group enjoyed the action economy changes.
At least the beta rules are free so you can inspect them and have a voice before they go official :) I just hope that it doesn't go the "lets simplify things for faster games and a broader audience" route that inevitably harms RPGs...
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Hey look at it this way, if 2e flops, they will go back to making 1e material.
I'm no expert in the gaming industry but I doubt that will happen. I'm my experience companies support the shiny new thing come hell or high water. Maybe it's just the sunken cost fallacy at work.
Plus I doubt it'll be a total failure. People want a simple game that coddles them. Level one in the current system is scawy so we need more HP! The favored class mechanic tried to boost us a bit here but you can still die if things go poorly (almost sounds like being in a fight. How crude.) Not to mention those boring martial characters who couldn't do anything magical. Now they can leap dozens of feet into the air and swim across entire oceans because magic is cool and everyone's a winner.
Today we're all so soft that we can't even entertain the idea of playing a hard game.
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I just hope that it doesn't go the "lets simplify things for faster games and a broader audience" route that inevitably harms RPGs...
How does that "harm" RPGs?
Here's a simple game that can be played fast: grab a magic wand, start waving it around and play Harry Potter pretend hour. Anyone can play or understand it, there's no big scary rule book and it pairs well with a warm glass of milk and animal crackers.
Thanks, Tri.
Yikes... I have a bazillion books. Horrified to think that they are about to be paperweights :(
Granted... I wont be able to read them much longer anyway, so... eh. Will keep 'em for posterity, though. Gave away some of my D&D 2nd ed stuff and BOY WAS THAT A MISTAKE.
Honestly a lot of them will still be useful for a long time. All the setting type books and area information/lore stuff is still all useful. It is mostly the nitty gritty player option stuff that gets obsoleted. And there may be pretty easy conversion rules for a lot of that stuff.
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Here's a simple game that can be played fast: grab a magic wand, start waving it around and play Harry Potter pretend hour. Anyone can play or understand it, there's no big scary rule book and it pairs well with a warm glass of milk and animal crackers.
I just hope that it doesn't go the "lets simplify things for faster games and a broader audience" route that inevitably harms RPGs...
How does that "harm" RPGs?
You didn't answer my question.
You didn't answer my question.Here's a simple game that can be played fast: grab a magic wand, start waving it around and play Harry Potter pretend hour. Anyone can play or understand it, there's no big scary rule book and it pairs well with a warm glass of milk and animal crackers.
I just hope that it doesn't go the "lets simplify things for faster games and a broader audience" route that inevitably harms RPGs...
How does that "harm" RPGs?
You know, stop_liking_what_i_dont_like.png and all that.
Chances are I won't be investing heavily in New 'n' Pathy!, but if people are going to have fun with it, so much the better. At least the hobby is still alive.
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You didn't answer my question.Here's a simple game that can be played fast: grab a magic wand, start waving it around and play Harry Potter pretend hour. Anyone can play or understand it, there's no big scary rule book and it pairs well with a warm glass of milk and animal crackers.
I just hope that it doesn't go the "lets simplify things for faster games and a broader audience" route that inevitably harms RPGs...
How does that "harm" RPGs?
You know, stop_liking_what_i_dont_like.png and all that.
Chances are I won't be investing heavily in New 'n' Pathy!, but if people are going to have fun with it, so much the better. At least the hobby is still alive.
I don't have a problem with people who like things I don't like (well, mostly).
I do have a problem with people who want to gate-keep the hobby or who think that their preference for more complex rulesets makes them in any way superior to those who prefer less complicated games.
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I just hope that it doesn't go the "lets simplify things for faster games and a broader audience" route that inevitably harms RPGs...
How does that "harm" RPGs?
It makes them ridiculous and boring. I guess what I'm opposed to here are the already complex awesome games that *I* enjoy being dumbed down to appeal to a broader audience. I really rather they'd just make a whole new game for that. Call me a grognard, I don't care, I like Star Fleet Battles and stuff like that and I'm proud of it.
Making pen and paper games that are already complex more simplified for easier barriers to entry is like lowering the required GPA for honor's club from 4.0 to 3.0... oh crap... that happened like 20 years ago, didn't it? Laaaaaaaaaaaaaame.
Just make RPG-Lite or something for the other crowd. Hell, isn't that why we have post-2004 MMOs?
So how does it harm RPGS? It winds up choking advanced systems out of production. Why? There's just so so so so much more money to be made appealing to a mass market that once you start down that path there's almost no reason to continue the advanced path because the market is so much smaller that you'd be better off investing those resources in better marketing for the masses.
Why? Because a nice ignorant monoculture that doesn't know any better and doesn't engage in critical thinking is the single best venue for marketing and mass sales that exists.
WARNING: I have only had one mug of coffee today so far and am slightly cranky, so take this entire post with a grain of salt or preferably a shot of tequila... and a bite of lime... with that salt. Damn, I need a drink. What goes well in coffee? Do I have any Kahlua left? Wtf why am I still typing...
I just hope that it doesn't go the "lets simplify things for faster games and a broader audience" route that inevitably harms RPGs...
How does that "harm" RPGs?
It makes them ridiculous and boring. I guess what I'm opposed to here are the already complex awesome games that *I* enjoy being dumbed down to appeal to a broader audience. I really rather they'd just make a whole new game for that. Call me a grognard, I don't care, I like Star Fleet Battles and stuff like that and I'm proud of it.
Making pen and paper games that are already complex more simplified for easier barriers to entry is like lowering the required GPA for honor's club from 4.0 to 3.0... oh crap... that happened like 20 years ago, didn't it? Laaaaaaaaaaaaaame.
Just make RPG-Lite or something for the other crowd. Hell, isn't that why we have post-2004 MMOs?
So how does it harm RPGS? It winds up choking advanced systems out of production. Why? There's just so so so so much more money to be made appealing to a mass market that once you start down that path there's almost no reason to continue the advanced path because the market is so much smaller that you'd be better off investing those resources in better marketing for the masses.
Why? Because a nice ignorant monoculture that doesn't know any better and doesn't engage in critical thinking is the single best venue for marketing and mass sales that exists.
WARNING: I have only had one mug of coffee today so far and am slightly cranky, so take this entire post with a grain of salt or preferably a shot of tequila... and a bite of lime... with that salt. Damn, I need a drink. What goes well in coffee? Do I have any Kahlua left? Wtf why am I still typing...
For what it's worth, my read is that they are simplifying the game play, largely by condensing some things like actions, and standardizing terminology, while increasing character customization.
If anything, my own read on the situation is that PF 2E will in many way be MORE complex, given the number of different types of feats, more complicated condition and critical rules, and resonance pools for item use. I don't think you really have to worry here.
Given the average level of snark on this board or the internet in general, there are very few comments that are fairly called gate-keeping. In fact throwing that term out as a blanket against those who do not wish change is just a different kind of gate-keeping. Those who are content with the game as is and would like to keep using the existing product are behaving reasonably to try and protect what they like. Loss of new adventures via APs threatens their gaming experience (the very existence of pre-made campaigns under cuts any blanket argument to just make up new stuff). It's not like customers are given much of a vote, it is more of a poker move the company is betting given the choice between doing without new gaming materials or not that enough people will move things along to then pull more of the community along so they have actual gaming opportunities. As someone who started doing PFS to find a regular group after years of gaming far too little those are reasonable concerns.
Of course we have a vote. We vote with our wallets. If enough people like it to keep Paizo going in that direction, so be it.
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For those who say we haven't lost anything, it sure seems like we've lost a good future. That's a pretty darn big thing to consider losing. I love complexity, and PF is not the only thing I'm currently worried about losing interest in for want of it.
Paizo is not obligated to make the thing any individual (or group) wants for its lifetime. If they decided to rebrand themselves as saddle manufacturers tomorrow, that's their right. If you disagree, I refer you to answer #2 here (warning: mild language).
