Master of Many Styles is pretty much the exception to the rule. All archetypes that modified any prior class features that are now ki powers do not technically work with the unchained monk. That just means you have to work out a reasonable compromise with your GM, though.Archetypes that gave options that are not available to the unchained monk.Why doesn't the unchained monk qualify for archetypes?
Looks to me like the master of many styles archetype would work just fine.
Plus...people tend to vacation in MoMS, not live there.
Not saying it is bad...but rather front loaded, and most do not like the loss of flurry of blows (less serious with unchained, I suppose, due to the increase to full BAB; I still somewhat doubt it will be the main attraction)
Master of Many Styles is pretty much the exception to the rule. All archetypes that modified any prior class features that are now ki powers do not technically work with the unchained monk. That just means you have to work out a reasonable compromise with your GM, though.Archetypes that gave options that are not available to the unchained monk.Why doesn't the unchained monk qualify for archetypes?
Looks to me like the master of many styles archetype would work just fine.
Plus...people tend to vacation in MoMS, not live there.
Not saying it is bad...but rather front loaded, and most do not like the loss of flurry of blows (less serious with unchained, I suppose, due to the increase to full BAB; I still somewhat doubt it will be the main attraction)
It's actually a fairly serious trade-off, since with the unchained monk you can't use Style Strike outside of a flurry. At least, that's the way it is by RAW. That's pretty easy to work out with your GM, though: just replace flurry in this instance with 'melee full-attack'.
Also, monks losing their movement (now called Sudden Speed) and...
Wait, is fast movement no longer constantly active?
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Also, monks losing their movement (now called Sudden Speed) and...Wait, is fast movement no longer constantly active?
He's referring specifically to the core monk's ki pool having the innate ability to buy extra movement. The Unchained monk's ki pool has only one innate ability: buying extra attacks on a flurry. The extra move and the AC bonus have both become ki powers.
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Actually, I believe rangers had a D10 in 3e and they got it decreased to a D8 in 3.5 which was a slight nerf. It was one I didn't agree with.(rangers got upped to d10 in 3.5; in 3rd they had a d8).
Yeah - I think it was done because in 3.0 it was such a dippable class. Two feats (TWF & Ambidextrous) plus d20, full BAB, favored enemy, and 2 good saves for 1 level? Yes please.
If you wanted to TWF, in 3.0 you dipped ranger.
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I am sore about the lack of secondary AC, unless the complaints are ignoring some kind of ki AC ability that nobody is talking about. Its no sweat off my nose (using third party options that I allow at the same time I can get a monk to 36 touch AC before magic items.) but I think one of the biggest problems with the monk is the dependance on Dex AND Wis for AC rather than being able to rely on Wis and some kind of kung-fu guard or deflection kata.Furious defense (+4 AC for one ki thing), while it does require you to pick it as a ki power, is super better than before since it's an immediate action, so you can use it only when you need it, which is a great conserver on ki as well as immediate/swifts. That said, monks I've seen, especially at high levels, have tended to have extremely high ACs overall even before Unchained.
Do they still get barkskin as a ki ability? Without it an unarmed monk's AC will be weak since, as their neck slot is filled with the AoMF, they can't get an AoNA.
Do they still get barkskin as a ki ability? Without it an unarmed monk's AC will be weak since, as their neck slot is filled with the AoMF, they can't get an AoNA.I am sore about the lack of secondary AC, unless the complaints are ignoring some kind of ki AC ability that nobody is talking about. Its no sweat off my nose (using third party options that I allow at the same time I can get a monk to 36 touch AC before magic items.) but I think one of the biggest problems with the monk is the dependance on Dex AND Wis for AC rather than being able to rely on Wis and some kind of kung-fu guard or deflection kata.Furious defense (+4 AC for one ki thing), while it does require you to pick it as a ki power, is super better than before since it's an immediate action, so you can use it only when you need it, which is a great conserver on ki as well as immediate/swifts. That said, monks I've seen, especially at high levels, have tended to have extremely high ACs overall even before Unchained.
They can still take the old ki abilities.
Do they still get barkskin as a ki ability? Without it an unarmed monk's AC will be weak since, as their neck slot is filled with the AoMF, they can't get an AoNA.I am sore about the lack of secondary AC, unless the complaints are ignoring some kind of ki AC ability that nobody is talking about. Its no sweat off my nose (using third party options that I allow at the same time I can get a monk to 36 touch AC before magic items.) but I think one of the biggest problems with the monk is the dependance on Dex AND Wis for AC rather than being able to rely on Wis and some kind of kung-fu guard or deflection kata.Furious defense (+4 AC for one ki thing), while it does require you to pick it as a ki power, is super better than before since it's an immediate action, so you can use it only when you need it, which is a great conserver on ki as well as immediate/swifts. That said, monks I've seen, especially at high levels, have tended to have extremely high ACs overall even before Unchained.
One of the ki powers an unchained monk can take is a quinggong power, which includes barkskin at level 4. So don't worry, you're still covered there. Also, you can take quinggong power multiple times if you want to pick up, say, ki leech as another spell or one of the ki-powered feats.
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Plus, you also have the option of grabbing gloves of dueling as well (you aren't using bracers of armor anymore), since it has weapon training and it is called out to work like weapon training (which is all that is needed, according to FAQs).
You can have both Bracers of Armor & Gloves of Dueling. The bracers use the wrist slot while the gloves use the hands slot.
The real decision is whether to go a bit less MAD to wear armor & get Brawling enchantment, or to have significantly higher defenses by mid levels by going unarmored.
(Plus there may be a few who won't let a Sohei flurry in light armor since the designer of the class said that was not his intent - though the proficiency would be all but worthless without it. *shrug*)
Why is the monk's AC bonus still 1/4 level? Would giving it 1/2 level AC bonus help its MADness?
That is the problem. There was already a solution to that problem- pummeling charge. It made those more than even in mobility (and I do not know if flying kick spends ki; if it does, then pummel is much, much better).Two things really...
First when doing DPR on 'old flurry' vs. 'new flurry'.
This was done on a 10th level character so did you start the fight 30 feet away?
Because if so new flurry is 'flying kick' and full flurry - meaning pounce essentially (flying kick = move up to your bonus speed at any time during a flurry which includes before the first blow). Because it's a flurry he can spend his ki for the extra attack.
Old flurry is 'move and get 1 attack'
'new flurry' is now 3 attacks ahead of old flurry.
Ok - so old monk requires 2 feats to do what the new monk does for free. Except the new monk has +2 better to hit across the board before any other buffs/abilities/etc. Which means the new monk can take power attack for one of the feats the old monk used to 'pummel' so....
Yea?
*edit* - flying kick is not a ki power - it's a 'choose one of these once during a flurry of blows for free' power - and at higher level you can choose two of the options.
It was pretty much tailor made to solve a large, large swath of monk problems. Heck, even enhancement is less of a problem- since you blast through DR, you can use greater magic weapon/fang with impunity while using an amulet of natural armor instead.And I will stick to my guns on the old monk...mostly because there was such a large mass of archetypes built to deal with the problem. Archetypes that gave options that are not available to the unchained monk.
Yep - and the new monk give the most used and popular of those as part of the base class (Qinggong Power)and the best ability is now available at level 6 (abundant step).
Sohei would likely be working with a +9 or +11 bonus on hits if, depending on items. Maneuver master could have them blind, deaf, and nauseated with dirty tricks and the like (making them easy pickings, even with 'meh' melee). Tetori could hogtie ghosts before they even had time to ask 'lol wut?'
And the new monk can also use items - thus being +11 or +12 on hits... (still +2 better). New monk can still use Maneuver master.
New monk can also (for free without archtypes) choose to stagger, or trip, or ignore DR, or double damage, or make a foe flat footed.
With no feat investment.
One of the ki powers an unchained monk can take is a quinggong power, which includes barkskin at level 4. So don't worry, you're still covered there. Also, you can take quinggong power multiple times if you want to pick up, say, ki leech as another spell or one of the ki-powered feats.Do they still get barkskin as a ki ability? Without it an unarmed monk's AC will be weak since, as their neck slot is filled with the AoMF, they can't get an AoNA.I am sore about the lack of secondary AC, unless the complaints are ignoring some kind of ki AC ability that nobody is talking about. Its no sweat off my nose (using third party options that I allow at the same time I can get a monk to 36 touch AC before magic items.) but I think one of the biggest problems with the monk is the dependance on Dex AND Wis for AC rather than being able to rely on Wis and some kind of kung-fu guard or deflection kata.Furious defense (+4 AC for one ki thing), while it does require you to pick it as a ki power, is super better than before since it's an immediate action, so you can use it only when you need it, which is a great conserver on ki as well as immediate/swifts. That said, monks I've seen, especially at high levels, have tended to have extremely high ACs overall even before Unchained.
Wait, so why are people complaining about MADness and will saves if more Wis grants them AC and access to at least two different ki based AC boosts?
Why is the monk's AC bonus still 1/4 level? Would giving it 1/2 level AC bonus help its MADness?
Because AC was never a monk's weak spot (this change would make it too good) and this wouldn't fix the MAD issue anyways. Remember, monks still need good Wisdom for their ki pool, ki power, and stunning fist, as well as their Will saving throws (now more than before). Wisdom isn't typically your best ability score, but it's a close second.
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Does that include the style strike? How does your Unchained Monk do with elbow smash or hammerblow on the first attack?
Elbow smash? Hammerblow? Flying Kick? Does the unchained monk also get an attack/damage bonus for going off the top turnbuckle? What about entrance music for a morale bonus?
He's referring specifically to the core monk's ki pool having the innate ability to buy extra movement. The Unchained monk's ki pool has only one innate ability: buying extra attacks on a flurry. The extra move and the AC bonus have both become ki powers.Also, monks losing their movement (now called Sudden Speed) and...Wait, is fast movement no longer constantly active?
Yeah, I saw this last night in one of Cerebus Seven's posts. I DO NOT like this. It takes away from the Monk what he has been able to do since Pathfinder began. Sure, you can pick these as ki powers . . . but should they HAVE to pick?
It is another nerf on a class that didn't need a nerf.
I'll still buy the book and the PDF, but I'm getting more and more disappointed hearing about the details.
MA
Well Sudden Speed the movement boost from ki costs 1 ki point, boosts your speed by 30, and lasts 1 minute. As opposed to 1 ki point for 20 ft for 1 round.... And yes I hear the issues people have about having to choose powers and customize their monks, just toss in Extra Ki Power as a feat. There's Extra Arcana, Extra Rage Power, Extra X. This is a tool kit after all
He's referring specifically to the core monk's ki pool having the innate ability to buy extra movement. The Unchained monk's ki pool has only one innate ability: buying extra attacks on a flurry. The extra move and the AC bonus have both become ki powers.Also, monks losing their movement (now called Sudden Speed) and...Wait, is fast movement no longer constantly active?Yeah, I saw this last night in one of Cerebus Seven's posts. I DO NOT like this. It takes away from the Monk what he has been able to do since Pathfinder began. Sure, you can pick these as ki powers . . . but should they HAVE to pick?
It is another nerf on a class that didn't need a nerf.
I'll still buy the book and the PDF, but I'm getting more and more disappointed hearing about the details.
MA
Well you could pick almost all the same abilities and have almost the exact same skillset.
Of course the new stuff is just so juicy it'll be hard to justify it.
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If it's, for instance, a maxed out gunslinger, and the gunslinger's turn comes up after whoever took control of her, there might be nothing you can do. While I've never seen a gunslinger TPK their allies, I have seen a gunslinger deal more damage than the rest of the party's combined hp in one round, to a target that had equal touch AC to anyone in the party.Preferably the entire party is effective enough where they're a danger. If one character is capable of killing the rest of the party in one round without some kind of favorable circumstance then the party has an entirely different problem.For the ones where a character turns on the party, when a player has a truly busted character, sometimes that character can kill the rest of the party in one round. It's one of the few cases where less powerful characters lead to less danger.By that logic Will saves shouldn't exist. Roll a d10 and if you roll a zero roll a new character. Or better yet just give everyone good will saves.
And what kind of meatgrinder games are going on where failed will saves are treated like instant TPKs? I've almost never seen that happen, but I've seen plenty of failed Will saves. I see them all the time. But the results are never as bad as what's insinuated on the forums. I wouldn't even be playing if that was that prevalent.
I can certainly relate to this. Although it was with Mirrors of Opposition, the effect was nearly identical. Our party's wizard, (a monstrous amalgamation of 3.5 party prestige classes) lost initiative to his clone and had his Flesh turn to Salt.
While my clone, (I was a pistolero) decided to roll two fumbles and still brought me down within the single digits, (only surviving because my touch AC was decent enough for the tail end of iteratives). Without fumbles there's no question that I could one round a party member within touch AC range. Especially once I splurged on truesight goggles...Back on topic. A poor will save, plus a DPR heavy character, is a dangerous game of hoping they don't roll poorly against dominate/charm effects.
Well Sudden Speed the movement boost from ki costs 1 ki point, boosts your speed by 30, and lasts 1 minute. As opposed to 1 ki point for 20 ft for 1 round....
Yep. While you have to pick it, the trade-off for your ki is amazingly improved! I've rarely seen monks use the 1 round extra speed boost because it's so ki intensive, but I think a lot of monks will appreciate getting so much more speed for a whole fight (particularly right before a ki hurricane...bwahahaha!) Personally, I'd much rather the monk have a useful selectable option than an extremely niche automatic ability.
Well Sudden Speed the movement boost from ki costs 1 ki point, boosts your speed by 30, and lasts 1 minute. As opposed to 1 ki point for 20 ft for 1 round....Yep. While you have to pick it, the trade-off for your ki is amazingly improved! I've rarely seen monks use the 1 round extra speed boost because it's so ki intensive, but I think a lot of monks will appreciate getting so much more speed for a whole fight (particularly right before a ki hurricane...bwahahaha!) Personally, I'd much rather the monk have a useful selectable option than an extremely niche automatic ability.
I know I'm the only Monk I've seen, personally, to regularly indulge in the bonus to speed, but I also built my Monk around leaping into the air and adding falling damage to my blows, so the extra speed translated into extra height on my jumps.
I know I'm the only Monk I've seen, personally, to regularly indulge in the bonus to speed, but I also built my Monk around leaping into the air and adding falling damage to my blows, so the extra speed translated into extra height on my jumps.Well Sudden Speed the movement boost from ki costs 1 ki point, boosts your speed by 30, and lasts 1 minute. As opposed to 1 ki point for 20 ft for 1 round....Yep. While you have to pick it, the trade-off for your ki is amazingly improved! I've rarely seen monks use the 1 round extra speed boost because it's so ki intensive, but I think a lot of monks will appreciate getting so much more speed for a whole fight (particularly right before a ki hurricane...bwahahaha!) Personally, I'd much rather the monk have a useful selectable option than an extremely niche automatic ability.
I bet your monk would totally love the upgrade to +30 for 1 minute then!
From What I'm hearing about the strikes and new flurry I have half a mind to just port that to the Monk and leave it alone. What I'm most likely to do due to laziness is allow the choice of Unchained, Chained, or Talented Monk. All monks get access to Ki boosts in my game so I'm just hoping that the Unchained Ki abilities aren't terribly good, otherwise I'm looking at Monks being mana clerics.
I'm curious how other people build monk AC. My 13 Dex, high Wis PFS monk usually had either the highest AC in the party or was very competitive with an extremely tanky other character (counting her qinggong barkskin power as active, as well as her wand of mage armor). Is that not usually the case for other people? I've seen a few posts here saying that they agree that monks usually have high AC and a few saying that monks usually have low.
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I'm curious how other people build monk AC. My 13 Dex, high Wis PFS monk usually had either the highest AC in the party or was very competitive with an extremely tanky other character (counting her qinggong barkskin power as active, as well as her wand of mage armor). Is that not usually the case for other people? I've seen a few posts here saying that they agree that monks usually have high AC and a few saying that monks usually have low.
The Dragon Style monk(s) I was talking about earlier were running AC 26 at 10th level (armor +2, deflection +1, Dex +2, dodge +1, natural +4, Wis +4, monk +3), using monk's robe and barkskin; because they were built for DPR Olympics rules, a wand of mage armor wasn't an option. I felt like that was a decent tradeoff, especially since they both have the option to spend ki for another +4 if required.
My STR-Based PFS Martial Artist's AC is a little lower than I would like, as I use an AoMF and don't have access to Qingong. But I still have a 23 at 5th level with Mage Armor up. I do have Dodge, Ironskin, a 14 dex, 18 wis, and a ring of protection.
Yeah, makes sense. If you were Unchained instead, you would have access to barkskin, so you could have 10 Dex and still have the same AC at level 5 (and 5 is a bad level for barskin, since AC would rise at level 6). Granted, Dex does do other things too, but it seems like it would free up your point buy at least a little.
I will say the best thing about my PFS monk is her respectably high AC. Even if I decided to forgo the wand of mage armor, at level 8 she would end up with a AC of 28 when fully buffed, which isn't bad. Mage armor of course brings that total up to 32.
Getting more on the topic of Pathfinder Unchained, I have to say reading this thread I'm a little disappointed. It does sound like there have been some improvements over the core monk but from the sounds of it pretty much every gain comes at a trade off and the overall class is still so much worse than the sacred fist at unarmed combat that there's really no point in not playing a sacred fist if I want to play an unarmed combatant (though proficiency in monk weapons is a minor boon that's hardly worth mentioning since it can easily be cheesed with a one level dip in unarmed fighter).
I'll reserve my judgement until I have the opportunity to see the full class details but I have to admit that I was willing to buy this book just for the improvement to monks and rogues but at this point I'm starting to feel that these classes being meaningfully weaker than every other class is simply part of the design philosophy at Paizo and there's no point in waiting for that to change.
I will say the best thing about my PFS monk is her respectably high AC. Even if I decided to forgo the wand of mage armor, at level 8 she would end up with a AC of 28 when fully buffed, which isn't bad. Mage armor of course brings that total up to 32.
Getting more on the topic of Pathfinder Unchained, I have to say reading this thread I'm a little disappointed. It does sound like there have been some improvements over the core monk but from the sounds of it pretty much every gain comes at a trade off and the overall class is still so much worse than the sacred fist at unarmed combat that there's really no point in not playing a sacred fist if I want to play an unarmed combatant (though proficiency in monk weapons is a minor boon that's hardly worth mentioning since it can easily be cheesed with a one level dip in unarmed fighter).
I'll reserve my judgement until I have the opportunity to see the full class details but I have to admit that I was willing to buy this book just for the improvement to monks and rogues but at this point I'm starting to feel that these classes being meaningfully weaker than every other class is simply part of the design philosophy at Paizo and there's no point in waiting for that to change.
It's a psychologically built-in bias for us all to increase our perceived value of losses of something we already have (it's part of how sacred cows come to be). I think (but of course, one can never be sure) that if you read it yourself, you will agree that there is a net gain for both classes (also in particular, if someone is telling you that the rogue was weakened, or that it had to trade out for what it got, you should be very skeptical of that person, as to my knowledge, the rogue strictly received new benefits and still has all its original features).
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My STR-Based PFS Martial Artist's AC is a little lower than I would like, as I use an AoMF and don't have access to Qingong. But I still have a 23 at 5th level with Mage Armor up. I do have Dodge, Ironskin, a 14 dex, 18 wis, and a ring of protection.Yeah, makes sense. If you were Unchained instead, you would have access to barkskin, so you could have 10 Dex and still have the same AC at level 5 (and 5 is a bad level for barskin, since AC would rise at level 6). Granted, Dex does do other things too, but it seems like it would free up your point buy at least a little.
I actually really like my point buy, dwarf makes monks easy with final scores of Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 16 Cha 5 after modifiers.
I still contribute to social encounters thanks to very good sense motive despite the CHA dump, and I've been the best meleer at the table in almost every session. But, I have been a negative HP a few times.
I want to see some of the offensive numbers for these monks. It isn't hard to get high defense for a monk. But it is harder to do so while maintaining offensive effectiveness.
I agree with you, and that's where the Unchained monk helps by a pretty large margin: offense. However, I wanted to talk about AC momentarily because some people in the thread were upset that the Unchained monk didn't get more AC powers than it has, and this perplexed me, as I thought it was generally accepted that monks had great AC and other defenses, but low offense (so enemies would just ignore them).
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I'm curious how other people build monk AC. My 13 Dex, high Wis PFS monk usually had either the highest AC in the party or was very competitive with an extremely tanky other character (counting her qinggong barkskin power as active, as well as her wand of mage armor). Is that not usually the case for other people? I've seen a few posts here saying that they agree that monks usually have high AC and a few saying that monks usually have low.
"High Wis" is just another term for "High defense, low damage output" where a Monk is concerned.
Having a high Wis is nice, but doesn't help you with your main goal. Which is hitting things, or combat maneuvering, or whatever.
The Monk is a combat class that has to pick between good defense or good offense, and picking good defense is rarely useful to the party as a whole.
Assuming 20 PB, most people playing, say, a melee based Ranger (another class that has Wis as a nice thing to have, but not a focus):
Str: 16 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 12 Wis: 12 Cha 7
With that array they have all their class features up and running from 1st level, and are good in combat. Grab a Chain Shirt and they have 16 AC at 1st level.
Meanwhile a Monk is like, do I go something like:
Str: 16 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 11 Wis: 13 Cha: 7
And have an amazing 13 AC? No, probably not.
So do I go:
Str: 14 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 12 Wis: 14 Cha: 8
And suck all around for 1 higher AC? No, probably not.
So do I go:
Str: 12 Dex: 16 Con: 14 Int: 12 Wis: 14 Cha: 7
And have a decent (for a Monk) AC at 15, but s!~!ty offense until I grab Agile?
Maybe, if I like Dex based characters.
Or do I go with the oh so archetypal "Dumb uncharismatic loser" Monk:
Str: 11 Dex: 16 Con: 14 Int: 8 Wis: 16 Cha: 7
Maybe too. Which is really frickin' sad.
Or do they do like you presumably did:
Str: 14 Dex: 13 Con: 14 Int: 11 Wis: 16 Cha: 7
And embrace the fact that Wis is the dark lord over all, even when it as a stat exists ONLY to shore up the weaknesses that its necessity provides in the first place? Even though that's still only a 14 AC. Which I guess puts you at a better AC than a guy with 14 Dex wearing Studded Leather. Barely. If you put your +2 to stat in Wis.
As a Monk you're constantly put into the position of getting the stats you NEED balanced with the stats you actually WANT.
I was hoping the Unchained Monk would be unchained from requiring a high Wis to do ANYTHING THE CLASS PROVIDES at the expense of everything else you could possibly want to do, but I set my sights a little high on that front.
Having the Monk REQUIRE Wis in addition to every other stat a frontline character needs was always bad design. You guys had an opportunity to FIX that, and you just made that particular problem worse, which disappoints me more than anything else.
You could have done ANYTHING to mitigate that.
Allow an option for Wis to attack/damage. Allow the ability to wear Light armor. Make the Wis based stuff actually WORTHWHILE. Up the AC bonus so it doesn't woefully trail behind actually armor.
ANYTHING, really.
This, right here, is the reason why people splash Monk, not play it to 20th. Being a MoMS/Sacred Mountain 2 is more benefit to most unarmed Monk flavored characters than Monk 20 is. That's not because that dip is THAT GOOD, it's because core Monk is THAT BAD at providing what it promises.
And the "Loosened Chains" Monk still has some of those same problems. My bet is, in the future, the only thing it will change is that the MoMS 2 dipping characters have a higher BaB and HD, but a lower Will save.
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I'm curious how other people build monk AC. My 13 Dex, high Wis PFS monk usually had either the highest AC in the party or was very competitive with an extremely tanky other character (counting her qinggong barkskin power as active, as well as her wand of mage armor). Is that not usually the case for other people? I've seen a few posts here saying that they agree that monks usually have high AC and a few saying that monks usually have low.
Well, since you asked...
My PFS Oni-Spawn Tiefling Monkarian (Urban Barbarian 1/Martial Artist Monk 4) fights with a Temple Sword. She's Strength-based (currently, STR 18, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 16, CHA 5). She has Weapon Focus & Weapon Specialization (Temple Sword).
While in a controlled rage and flurrying with her Masterwork Temple Sword, she's +11/+11, and hits for 1d8+8. Usually, she pre-buffs with her Wand of Mage Armor, and in combat, usually spends her first round activating her Cracked Purple Prism Ioun Stone to cast Shield on herself (with it being UMD'd or cast into the Ioun Stone by a party member with her Wand of Shield), she hits about AC 28 as a result.
She's extremely min-maxed, but still kind of fun.
Anyays, as a relatively recent Monk fan, I'm still curious about the Unchained Monk, so will try to hold reservation until I see the class first hand (when I can get the PDF on April 29th).
EDIT: It should be noted that, I had to work on that character for 6 months before actually playing her. The Monk (not the Unchained Monk, since I don't know much about it right now) requires a lot of thought to how to make it work. I'd probably guess it requires more system mastery than a wizard.
What are the Monk's proficiencies like? Does he get proficiency in exotic weapons? *crossing fingers for nine-section whip not being a terrible option anymore*
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My last PFS monk started with Str 18, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8 for AC 16 (including Dodge) and 13 hit points (thanks to Toughness).
The Unchained version would probably be Str 17, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 17, Cha 8, with Weapon Focus in place of Toughness (net loss of 1hp, but I'll make it back at level 2 and be ahead from there on out).
Actually thanks for pointing that out, Rynjin. Now that I think about it the Unchained monk does sound a lot nicer for dipping than a vanilla monk. Not to say there weren't excuses for dipping monk before but it does sound like you end up sacrificing less with Unchained. It's possible I may end up shelling out $10 for the PDF so that my sacred fist is just that much nicer when I dip MoMS assuming that the archetype is compatible.
<good insights>
Rynjin, thank you for taking the time to give that solid analysis above. I will say, though, that I think that having mage armor is usually a low bar to ask for a monk, raising everything you have there by 4. Now, not always, I agree. In Owen's Wrath of Rightous game, we haven't been able to buy consumables for a while, and I think that's going to have a noticeable effect on my no-armor paladin and Stephen's monk in the next few fights. I've definitely felt it pretty heavily ever since I ran out of potions.
Situations like that would kill or incapacitate one character maybe but never seen it end as badly as that let alone a TPK. Part of that is because the APs haven't produced that kind of situation on a regular basis, part of that is because I don't prey on obvious weaknesses that any party has (including presenting parties of full casters with gangs of monk grapplers), and part of that, I'll admit, even the mundane classes have access to mind protection from third party products, assuming they think to prepare it.If it's, for instance, a maxed out gunslinger, and the gunslinger's turn comes up after whoever took control of her, there might be nothing you can do. While I've never seen a gunslinger TPK their allies, I have seen a gunslinger deal more damage than the rest of the party's combined hp in one round, to a target that had equal touch AC to anyone in the party.Preferably the entire party is effective enough where they're a danger. If one character is capable of killing the rest of the party in one round without some kind of favorable circumstance then the party has an entirely different problem.For the ones where a character turns on the party, when a player has a truly busted character, sometimes that character can kill the rest of the party in one round. It's one of the few cases where less powerful characters lead to less danger.By that logic Will saves shouldn't exist. Roll a d10 and if you roll a zero roll a new character. Or better yet just give everyone good will saves.
And what kind of meatgrinder games are going on where failed will saves are treated like instant TPKs? I've almost never seen that happen, but I've seen plenty of failed Will saves. I see them all the time. But the results are never as bad as what's insinuated on the forums. I wouldn't even be playing if that was that prevalent.
You keep talking about 3rd party products, but Paizo does not account for 3rd party products. What you seem to also be doing is making an argument for your table without actually saying it. I understand it, but 3pp + Paizo changes having a bad affect at your table is not going to make it bad for the game as a whole.
Also what do you mean by "prey on obvious weaknesses"? I don't think many GM's spam saves(with the same spell) until someone(a specific someone) fails, but to avoid making someone roll a weak save is almost the same as giving them immunity. Now likely I am misunderstanding you. If I am feel free to explain what you mean.
<good insights>Rynjin, thank you for taking the time to give that solid analysis above. I will say, though, that I think that having mage armor is usually a low bar to ask for a monk, raising everything you have there by 4. Now, not always, I agree. In Owen's Wrath of Rightous game, we haven't been able to buy consumables for a while, and I think that's going to have a noticeable effect on my no-armor paladin and Stephen's monk in the next few fights. I've definitely felt it pretty heavily ever since I ran out of potions.
I've never really liked relying on consumables, but it shores up your AC, sure. Not at 1st level though. I've never had a character that's been able to drop 750 gp before 3rd or 4th. Or do your GMs allow wands with charges missing for a lower cost?
And even then, it's a raw deal. You're spending 750 gp for a Chain Shirt that only lasts for 50 hours, maximum. So over 7 times the cost, for less benefit.
That's how I've always viewed it, anyway. It's a necessary evil more than anything else.
I haven't played a pure Monk in a long time. Most are MoMS if they're not high level so I can wear armor. Plus I prefer Styles to Flurrying. I can always nab Two-Weapon Fighting as a Feat. I CAN'T nab the ability to make 4 attacks when it's not even my turn, empowered with super Dragon damage for any Feats. =)
<good insights>Rynjin, thank you for taking the time to give that solid analysis above. I will say, though, that I think that having mage armor is usually a low bar to ask for a monk, raising everything you have there by 4. Now, not always, I agree. In Owen's Wrath of Rightous game, we haven't been able to buy consumables for a while, and I think that's going to have a noticeable effect on my no-armor paladin and Stephen's monk in the next few fights. I've definitely felt it pretty heavily ever since I ran out of potions.I've never really liked relying on consumables, but it shores up your AC, sure. Not at 1st level though. I've never had a character that's been able to drop 750 gp before 3rd or 4th. Or do your GMs allow wands with charges missing for a lower cost?
And even then, it's a raw deal. You're spending 750 gp for a Chain Shirt that only lasts for 50 hours, maximum. So over 7 times the cost, for less benefit.
That's how I've always viewed it, anyway. It's a necessary evil more than anything else.
Scrolls until I can get a wand. I also have a fair chance of there being someone in the party who will be my buddy and spare one for me with a longer duration. WotR is particularly interesting in that regard, as we don't actually have anyone who even has it on their list, so I had to get potions, but somehow with mythic I think we'll manage :D
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I've never really liked relying on consumables, but it shores up your AC, sure. Not at 1st level though. I've never had a character that's been able to drop 750 gp before 3rd or 4th. Or do your GMs allow wands with charges missing for a lower cost?
And even then, it's a raw deal. You're spending 750 gp for a Chain Shirt that only lasts for 50 hours, maximum. So over 7 times the cost, for less benefit.
That's how I've always viewed it, anyway. It's a necessary evil more than anything else.
Most of my Pathfinder Monk experience has been in PFS, so there at least you can spend your Prestige Points on wands and such.
At least my min-maxing gave me an AC of 17 at 1st level (14 DEX, 16 WIS, +1 Natural Armor from being a Tiefling [alternate trait], and Dodge as my bonus feat).
Scrolls until I can get a wand. I also have a fair chance of there being someone in the party who will be my buddy and spare one for me with a longer duration. WotR is particularly interesting in that regard, as we don't actually have anyone who even has it on their list, so I had to get potions, but somehow with mythic I think we'll manage :D<good insights>Rynjin, thank you for taking the time to give that solid analysis above. I will say, though, that I think that having mage armor is usually a low bar to ask for a monk, raising everything you have there by 4. Now, not always, I agree. In Owen's Wrath of Rightous game, we haven't been able to buy consumables for a while, and I think that's going to have a noticeable effect on my no-armor paladin and Stephen's monk in the next few fights. I've definitely felt it pretty heavily ever since I ran out of potions.I've never really liked relying on consumables, but it shores up your AC, sure. Not at 1st level though. I've never had a character that's been able to drop 750 gp before 3rd or 4th. Or do your GMs allow wands with charges missing for a lower cost?
And even then, it's a raw deal. You're spending 750 gp for a Chain Shirt that only lasts for 50 hours, maximum. So over 7 times the cost, for less benefit.
That's how I've always viewed it, anyway. It's a necessary evil more than anything else.
I also very rarely end up in parties with full Arcane casters. It's kind of odd, now I think of it.
Of the Monks I've played, only Sun Xiao was partied with a full Arcane caster (a Gnome Sorcerer) and he was pushed out of the game because the GM was a prat and decided after 6 levels, the character's backstory didn't make any sense (he was the son of Asmodeus) so he "went home" and the player brought in a Ranger instead.
Sun Xiao wore armor anyway. That iteration was the MoMs 5/Brawler (Fighter) 3 in my classes/levels bar.
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<good insights>Rynjin, thank you for taking the time to give that solid analysis above. I will say, though, that I think that having mage armor is usually a low bar to ask for a monk, raising everything you have there by 4. Now, not always, I agree. In Owen's Wrath of Rightous game, we haven't been able to buy consumables for a while, and I think that's going to have a noticeable effect on my no-armor paladin and Stephen's monk in the next few fights. I've definitely felt it pretty heavily ever since I ran out of potions.I've never really liked relying on consumables, but it shores up your AC, sure. Not at 1st level though. I've never had a character that's been able to drop 750 gp before 3rd or 4th. Or do your GMs allow wands with charges missing for a lower cost?
And even then, it's a raw deal. You're spending 750 gp for a Chain Shirt that only lasts for 50 hours, maximum. So over 7 times the cost, for less benefit.
It's easy to afford in PFS by the 2nd session as it just takes 2 prestige. And your WBL is supposed to be 1000ish by level 2 in a standard game. It seems like a solid first major purchase to me. It's less than half the cost of a fighter's first big purchase. (masterwork fullplate) If you have a wizard/sorceror buddy, you may be better off springing the 1000gp for a pearl of power.
And while it's the same +4 AC as a chain shirt, it still lets you get your wis/monk bonuses to AC and has no ACP.
What are the Monk's proficiencies like? Does he get proficiency in exotic weapons? *crossing fingers for nine-section whip not being a terrible option anymore*
The unchained monk gets a list that's mostly similar to the original monk, but they also get proficiency with any weapon that has the monk quality. That includes the nine-section whip! :D
<good insights>Rynjin, thank you for taking the time to give that solid analysis above. I will say, though, that I think that having mage armor is usually a low bar to ask for a monk, raising everything you have there by 4. Now, not always, I agree. In Owen's Wrath of Rightous game, we haven't been able to buy consumables for a while, and I think that's going to have a noticeable effect on my no-armor paladin and Stephen's monk in the next few fights. I've definitely felt it pretty heavily ever since I ran out of potions.I've never really liked relying on consumables, but it shores up your AC, sure. Not at 1st level though. I've never had a character that's been able to drop 750 gp before 3rd or 4th. Or do your GMs allow wands with charges missing for a lower cost?
And even then, it's a raw deal. You're spending 750 gp for a Chain Shirt that only lasts for 50 hours, maximum. So over 7 times the cost, for less benefit.
It's easy to afford in PFS by the 2nd session as it just takes 2 prestige. And your WBL is supposed to be 1000ish by level 2 in a standard game. It seems like a solid first major purchase to me. It's less than half the cost of a fighter's first big purchase. (masterwork fullplate)
And while it's the same +4 AC as a chain shirt, it still lets you get your wis/monk bonuses to AC and has no ACP.
I don't play PFS, and you can't spend over half your WBL on a single item.
What are the Monk's proficiencies like? Does he get proficiency in exotic weapons? *crossing fingers for nine-section whip not being a terrible option anymore*The unchained monk gets a list that's mostly similar to the original monk, but they also get proficiency with any weapon that has the monk quality. That includes the nine-section whip! :D
Nice! That's what I wanted to hear. Maybe I can rework my first, awfully done thug Monk into something actually playable.