I'm looking forward to creating a fun party face kitsune, casting enchantment spells and being a skill monkey of sorts out of combat. I'm worried about how to handle combat and being spread too thin.
I found a build out of date for a Lotus Geisha Bard, a 2 level dip into lore warden fighter and another dip into Rogue with the kitsune racial archetype for 1-3 levels. I assume the rest of the levels would be back with the bard.
the 20 point buy I had in mind:
str 9 dex 14 con 12 int 14 wis 10 cha 18
perhaps wielding a whip and buckler to keep the weight down. If you are familiar with star trek think lwaxana troi: bubbly and flirty, honest and charming and very assertive. her lust for life over flows and she never kills.
skills: acrobatics, diplomacy, stealth, umd, perform oratory, sense motive, perception and spellcraft.
Channel some positivity and jump on the multiclass bandwagon! ^_^
What feats perhaps would add to the fun? some ideas are: realistic likeness, a couple magical tails and swift kitsune shapeshifter appear wonderfully fun. Improved initiative, arcane strike, discordant voice, lingering performance, spell focus enchantment, persistant or heighten spell.
for spells charm person and hideous laughter perhaps.
You seem to have conflicting goals with your character. You state that you want to be a spellcaster and focus on skills, but then you start talking about dipping fighter and rogue. You don't need to dip rogue to be good at skills. Ultimately, you need to pick what you want to do and build for it; trying to do too much with your feats will hurt you in the long run.
Going bard and focusing on Magical Tails and bardic performance isn't a bad idea; the bard will benefit from having extra spell-like abilities if your goal is to be a casting-focused character. With that said, focusing heavily on Magical Tail is a very hard investment for a bard to make, especially a casting-focused bard. This would be a pretty good reason to take the lotus geisha as a kitsune; free Spell Focus feats is great.
In short, pick a few things that you want to be good at; don't try to be good at "all the things."
Why the rogue? Once you bard you pretty much have all the rogue you need.
Why the rogue? Once you bard you pretty much have all the rogue you need.
The Kitsune trickster would give:
Kitsune's Guile (Ex)At 1st level, a trickster relies on her intellect as much as her personality. She adds her Intelligence modifier on Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, and Sense Motive checks.
This ability replaces trapfinding.
More social skills. it was the only reason i put 14 into Int. 1 level would work.
You seem to have conflicting goals with your character. You state that you want to be a spellcaster and focus on skills, but then you start talking about dipping fighter and rogue. You don't need to dip rogue to be good at skills. Ultimately, you need to pick what you want to do and build for it; trying to do too much with your feats will hurt you in the long run.
Going bard and focusing on Magical Tails and bardic performance isn't a bad idea; the bard will benefit from having extra spell-like abilities if your goal is to be a casting-focused character. With that said, focusing heavily on Magical Tail is a very hard investment for a bard to make, especially a casting-focused bard. This would be a pretty good reason to take the lotus geisha as a kitsune; free Spell Focus feats is great.
In short, pick a few things that you want to be good at; don't try to be good at "all the things."
I've had a difficult time making this character, first these were stats i was going to use for a sorcerer and thought they'd work for a bard. I have no experience with either of these classes other than reading a lot of guides.
I thought that the few spells i could cast i wanted to rock at so left the cha at 18. I don't want to be a bump on a log in combat but ranged looks so feat dependent. Only being able to cast 2 spells a day really seems to suck =(
few is 3, so my few is social skills, bardic performance, enchantment/compulsion. I thought lore warden would be a great way to nab some extra feats for arcane heritage fey for the +2 compulsion etc and still get some BAB and hp. I thought maybe put my ability points into str or dex.
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Lore warden will only give you combat feats. It's useless for arcane heritage.
You CHA is too high unless you focus on save or suck spells. You can swap DEX and CHA without any real loss if you instead focus on buff/support spells. This will allow you to be effective in combat via archery or finesse while still being a competent party face, Knowledge monkey, and caster.
I would also swap the CON and INT. You'll need the extra HP more than the skills.
Speaking of skills, dipping rogue for more skill points is a terrible idea. 6 skills per level + versatile performance is the same as 8 skills per level at level 2. DO NOT take both Diplomacy and Oratory, as Oratory subs for diplomacy with versatile performance.
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The Kitsune trickster would give:
Kitsune's Guile (Ex)At 1st level, a trickster relies on her intellect as much as her personality. She adds her Intelligence modifier on Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, and Sense Motive checks.
This ability replaces trapfinding.
I don't know that this will really be worth it in the long run. The list of skills that Kitsune's guile apply to is full of skills that versatile performance can sub out for, so you can get those skill quite high just through versatile performance... high enough that an extra couple points is likely just overkill anyways. I'm not sure but I don't think a bonus to one of your skills (like bluff or sense motive) applies when you use versatile performance to substitute for that skill. You can get around this by taking versatile performance in dance (acrobatics and fly) or other skills that don't replace the ones on the list that Kitsune's Guile adds to, but you may find that skill ranks get spread a little thin that way.
Overall this means that you can swap CON and INT and not worry about dipping into rogue and focus more on being a bard.
Why the rogue? Once you bard you pretty much have all the rogue you need.The Kitsune trickster would give:
Kitsune's Guile (Ex)At 1st level, a trickster relies on her intellect as much as her personality. She adds her Intelligence modifier on Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, and Sense Motive checks.
This ability replaces trapfinding.
More social skills. it was the only reason i put 14 into Int. 1 level would work.
You could get pretty much the same benefit from buying a headband of charsisma for 4.5 k. its not worth losing two casting levels over. (with versatile performance this would be outright better)
A bard is already a fighter/rogue/wizard hybrid, there's no reason to dash in other classes to try to be even more well rounded.
I was indeed thinking that more skill ranks would = better at said skills to make up for bad rolls. I'm used to playing skill starved characters that look at wizards and rangers jealously with there insanely high checks.
So i should not put any skill points in diplomacy or sense motive if I'm taking oratory for versatile performance? That means i will miss out on 4 points in those skills for the first 3 scenarios which looks like a lot.
If i swap my int and con, what favored class bonus should i take? hp or skill point?
would dipping 1 level sorcerer be worth it for the fey bloodlines +2 for compulsion dc vs 2 feats? I have always looked at feats in a cherished way and the arcane heritage looks like a waste.
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Versatile Performance saves you many skill points.
Usually, a single point is all you need, for many skills.
The Pageant of the Peacock Masterpiece, turns your ranks in Bluff, into every intelligence based skill.
Don't forget, many spells negate the need for many skill checks.
Example: No need to max out Stealth, when you have Invisibility.
If you really need to dip, which I advise against, then you should consider Lore Oracle.
Sidestep Secret will negate your need for high Dexterity, and Lore Keeper will negate your need for high Intelligence.
In the end, those 2 extra skill points are not worth it, as you can do much more with the ranks you have.
Much, much, more.
Its pfs. you're only getting 1 or 2 skill substitutions on a strait bard build, much less if you're multiclassing.
There is very little difference between 6+ int skill points per level and 8 +int skill points per level. Even the "obvious" answer of the difference being 2 aside , with a 14 int and maxing out skills you're picking your 9th and 10th least favorite choices for skills , or maxing out skills you might otherwise just throw a rank into.
Versatile Performance saves you many skill points.
Usually, a single point is all you need, for many skills.
The Pageant of the Peacock Masterpiece, turns your ranks in Bluff, into every intelligence based skill.
Don't forget, many spells negate the need for many skill checks.
Example: No need to max out Stealth, when you have Invisibility.
If you really need to dip, which I advise against, then you should consider Lore Oracle.
Sidestep Secret will negate your need for high Dexterity, and Lore Keeper will negate your need for high Intelligence.
In the end, those 2 extra skill points are not worth it, as you can do much more with the ranks you have.
Much, much, more.
I accidentally deleted my post and most of the info i had developing this character. frustrating =(
revised stats: 10 str 15 dex 14 con 12 int 10 wis 17 cha
i can always put my ability bonuses into cha and dex.. my favored class i'll take the hp.
Would it be a bad career move to dip a level of sorcerer for the feys arcana of +2 dcs of compulsion
and also take the 3 levels of Oracle with Lore mystery? Clouded eyes seems to be the easiest curse
to live with. If i did how would you arrange the stats differently?
what should she have for weapons? I like fighting fans and butterfly swords but ranged has been
suggested and she does have access to shortbows. I'm worried about low str being a weight carrying problem.
If i want to keep her in clothing for RP reasons most of the time how can i make that work?
I was able to play this character today and found that my DCs are pretty good so far that I agree against dipping into sorcerer.
I've heard of someone doing the opposite being a sorcerer and dipping bard for the undead enchantments. Oh that'd be fun for a nagaji dragon disciple I'm working on.
I realized I can take one level of oracle and extra revelation feat for lore keeper and sidestep secret.
As a bard do i need to put a skill point in perform to be able to do my bardic performance? I assume i need to starting at level 1.
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I realized I can take one level of oracle and extra revelation feat for lore keeper and sidestep secret.
You could. It's probably not worth it as a casting focused Bard though. A melee Bard maybe...
As a bard do i need to put a skill point in perform to be able to do my bardic performance? I assume i need to starting at level 1.
You do not need to do this for Bardic Performance to work. That said, you probably want to do it, because it helps enable Versatile Performance at 2nd level, which is awesome.
I realized I can take one level of oracle and extra revelation feat for lore keeper and sidestep secret.You could. It's probably not worth it as a casting focused Bard though. A melee Bard maybe...
As a bard do i need to put a skill point in perform to be able to do my bardic performance? I assume i need to starting at level 1.You do not need to do this for Bardic Performance to work. That said, you probably want to do it, because it helps enable Versatile Performance at 2nd level, which is awesome.
If the 1 level of Oracle is going to happen i would redo my stats as follows:
str 10 dex 15 con 14 int 10 wis 10 cha 18
does that look like it would work well?
Being a geisha I thought that she should be in clothing and not armor to make roleplay sense.
She will have perform oratory and dance for versatile performance. this looks better to use a shortbow in combat. I spent a lot of time hiding around the corner or behind things since I only have a 12 ac.
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If you're gonna go ranged, don't bother with the Oracle level. It'll net you, what, +2 AC at most? That's not worth a caster level.
And grab some Silken Ceremonial Armor at least. It's very in-theme for a geisha, and gives +1 AC at no meaningful cost. Honestly, I'd go Chain Shirt and wear it under your clothes. Nobody will ever know, and once you've go a mithral one it's even completely comfy. Sleeves of Many Garments are also cheap and will help disguise the armor.
I'd go with the following stats for what you seem to want:
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 9 Cha 18
Possibly with the 9 in Str instead, depending on your priorities.
I don't need to be ranged, it sounds like a bad idea if i take the vision curse. I have war fans for flavour and fun.
I read a guide that suggests whip and dazzling display, they also suggested a net to be more controller and
flank buddy but I'm thinking my str will be too low to be effective.
I don't know what to do in combat other than spells and performance.
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Going Kitsune (who get a Dex bonus) and dipping Oracle to use Cha for AC is a bad combination in general. Your Dex will be close enough that it'll never net you enough Dex to be worthwhile.
As for what to do in combat...I'm actually a big fan of going archer, especially on a race with a Dex bonus. It's simple to play, and while it'll eat some Feats, that's the only resource it costs.
Going Kitsune (who get a Dex bonus) and dipping Oracle to use Cha for AC is a bad combination in general. Your Dex will be close enough that it'll never net you enough Dex to be worthwhile.
As for what to do in combat...I'm actually a big fan of going archer, especially on a race with a Dex bonus. It's simple to play, and while it'll eat some Feats, that's the only resource it costs.
I've done a lot of thinking and I'm not comfortable being a party face type character (bad anxiety being focus of attention) is not my cup of tea. So completely changing my character concept as she really wasn't fun.
I assume i'm stuck with the first level of bard so instead melee focus and dropping lotus geisha archtype. I am not sure if Arcane duelist would be better but i think it is for wanting to take 5 levels of pistolero gunslinger and dip into unarmed fighter or monk for unarmed strike/a cestus.
Something kind of like
1st level Arcane duelist that sings (shoot to thrill <3 ac dc) weapon finesse for feat
2nd level unarmed fighter not sure which style feat, dragon or crane I've seen presented as solid options.
3rd level Pistolero gunslinger rapid reload feat
Any build ideas would be greatly appreciated.
stats as follows:
str 10 dex 16 con 12 int 10 wis 14 cha 16
I know the cha is still high and i prolly could drop it to 14 but i want as many rounds of performance as possible. we don't typically have any support characters at the table so i'll also be buying a wand of clw.
I'm going the intimidate/bluff route rather than diplomacy. I'd like to dual wield pistols but I'm not 100% how that is achieved. RP as a black widow type with tonys charming personality. its easier to be a smartass.
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So eventually I will be a Kitsune Lotus Geisha Bard/Metal Oracle/Mystic Theurge.
MIght be a disaster, but there it is. There's a Shelyn specific feat that let's you combine your Bard and Oracle levels for the purposes of Bardic Performance. Lots of Enchantment spells, and finesse fighting with fans and sai.
The inspiration, of course, is this.
Whatever you end up doing, my advice is to pick some things you want to be good at, then just focus on doing that. Don't multiclass just for the sake of multiclassing, but if you have a combo you like, go for it.
Well Pathfinder Society max level is 12 and I've even now went so far as reducing charisma to 14 and pumping wisdom and dex 1 more point. I'll put my ability bonuses into them for +hit/dmg and more grit.
I'll save the performance for big bad evil things, this makes me giggle because I can see fun playing her in Fox form most of the time and slightly unhinged.
1st level Bard Acane Duelist comedy perform Feat: weapon finesse, arcane strike
2nd level Pistolero Gunslinger gains Pistol profeciency
3rd level Unarmed fighter Feats: Improved unarmed strike, Dragon style, Rapid reload
4th level Unarmed fighter Feats: weapon focus pistol
5th level Monk of Many style Feats: Dragon ferocity, Two weapon fighting
6th level Monk of Many style gain evasion Feats: Monkey style
7th level Pistolero Gunslinger Feat : Gunslinger
8th level Pistolero Gunslinger
9th level Pistolero Gunslinger Feats: Rapid shot, Point blank shot
I’ll take defensive strategist religion trait since I don't mind worship of Torag an it can be a fun reason to explain why her fur is black/silver from gunpowder, for the second trait do you think magical knack or reactionary?
Skills probably stick with Acrobatics, bluff, Intimidate, Perception, Sense motive, and Stealth. I think i have to put 1 point in craft Alchemy.
So eventually I will be a Kitsune Lotus Geisha Bard/Metal Oracle/Mystic Theurge.
MIght be a disaster, but there it is. There's a Shelyn specific feat that let's you combine your Bard and Oracle levels for the purposes of Bardic Performance. Lots of Enchantment spells, and finesse fighting with fans and sai.
The inspiration, of course, is this.
Whatever you end up doing, my advice is to pick some things you want to be good at, then just focus on doing that. Don't multiclass just for the sake of multiclassing, but if you have a combo you like, go for it.
That looks like fun, I have always just tried to play a concept rather than optimizing anything in the past. I just happened to luck out and not be useless in 2nd and 3rd edition D&D.
Those are good words to remember, I do try to do too much. I hope you enjoy your Kitsune! ^_^
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I assume i'm stuck with the first level of bard so instead melee focus and dropping lotus geisha archtype. I am not sure if Arcane duelist would be better but i think it is for wanting to take 5 levels of pistolero gunslinger and dip into unarmed fighter or monk for unarmed strike/a cestus.
If you haven't played the character at level 2 yet then you can change anything you like, including class and race. You keep your character number, xp, prestige and chronicle sheets. Once you've played a character at level 2 everything is then fixed, although you can use the retraining rules from ultimate campaign if you own it.
Generally multiclassing is done to get specific stuff. So unless you know what specific stuff you want there is no reason to multiclass. The bard/unarmed figther/moms/gunslinger is gonna be half decent at Lots of stuff and good at none. if you want her to use guns go gunslinger the first 5 levels, if you want her to be a bard go bard, if you want her to be a unarmed combatant consider Sacred fist with VMC magus to get piercing strike on snake style hands:)
There is nothing wrong with building characters that is all over the place but it is difficult to give good advice if the concept is multiclass at any cost.
Dont be discuraged by folks like me and remember that fun is the goal.
Ah i thought i had to keep the class, cool. I looked up gunslinger guides and they said about being melee/slinger for a close quarters combat kinda style and I wanted to give that a shot.
Since its better to multiclass a melee character than spellcaster and I want her to play like a modern spy/ shield agent or police detective with hand to hand combat and a gun.
I've played a natural weapon ranger and its a lot of fun so i thought this would be similar.
Does having a spell like ability qualify for arcane strike?
I'll just have her singing to herself and out loud some rock songs, and cracking wise jokes. happy to drop the bard.