Seriously. I feel like I see a lot of derision for it on this subforum, but I've been running into so many encounters where I wish I could move faster (like when the scout gets caught, or we get attacked by archers). It seems like a pretty useful feat if there's nothing else you absolutely need, right up there with Toughness and Improved Initiative. Every few encounters, you'll be glad of it.
In the last session of a game I'm in, my halfling nearly died because he got caught while scouting and was compelled to move even further from the group. It took our clanky dwarf fighter three rounds to reach the fight, while the dwarf cleric with the Travel domain arrived within two rounds to save my bacon. Speed is huge.
Am I really missing something here?
It's most useful to people in heavy armor... who can't benefit from the feat due to the light/no armor restriction. At best I can see it being used by one of the small races running a lightly armored martial build, but you can expect those to be dex-based and therefore not have the feats to spend one on Fleet.
Yeah I think I agree with you here. Though honestly I kind of forgot about fleet myself lol! Movement is great to have when you need it. I think that people don't really take movement into account when it comes to combat. Cause in a lot of fights Melee fighters don't really need to move aside from the first round, after that it's just 5ft steps. And usually you can charge to get into an enemy's face. Though there are times when it can be useful for going around corners to get to a guy when you can't charge.
I guess it's situational really. Though really, so is toughness which only applies when you are really hurting. I'd take fleet over improved initiative though, I've always found it overrated to go first.
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Speed actually has a direct bearing on DPR—very often, distant combats are close to a double move away. Five extra feet can mean the difference between a charge versus a hustle, or a hustle and then a full attack versus a hustle and a charge.
It's not as sexy as Power Attack or Weapon Focus, but practically speaking, it can make a huge difference in whether or not your character's friends make it through the next fight.
Honestly, I might even say the same thing about Fleet's ugly cousin, Run. Who cares if it only comes up once in a campaign? That's once in a campaign that you get away and don't die. 150 feet versus 120 means that no matter what the longbowmen do, they're going to be at least one range increment off when they shoot, and you'll still have your Dex bonus. And it means that you're that much likely to get away if the GM's a%~&!+$ enough to have someone try to run you down.
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I think the thing is, if the choice is between a feat that will be used once a campaign and a feat that will be used once a round, then people are going to pick the feat that will be used more often.
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Honestly, I might even say the same thing about Fleet's ugly cousin, Run. Who cares if it only comes up once in a campaign? That's once in a campaign that you get away and don't die
And other 150 that you actually do because you didn't pick something more usefull. Honestly, 5 feet really don't matters, especially in long runs.
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And that's what I think is wrong with the current way people optimize. People can't see the trees for the forest and they forget that every "once a campaign" combat tends to involve life or death. If a fight gets to where running away is an attractive strategy, you're gonna want to be able to run. If the scout is caught in a melee seventy feet ahead, you're gonna want to be able to charge. Fleet and Run aren't must-haves, but they have real benefits that are too often ignored because they don't add to often-used numbers.
The whole campaign ain't worth a damn if you get shot down in the fifth encounter. ;P
Honestly, I might even say the same thing about Fleet's ugly cousin, Run. Who cares if it only comes up once in a campaign? That's once in a campaign that you get away and don't dieAnd other 150 that you actually do because you didn't pick something more usefull. Honestly, 5 feet really don't matters, especially in long runs.
Run doesn't give you 5 feet, it gives you 20-30 and the ability to not get ganked quite as easily while running. Also, if you're sacrificing feats you really need to get Run, you deserve what you get. I think I've made it clear that Run isn't a "get this before you get anything else" feat, it's a "get it if you can, it might save your bacon" feat. Your archer doesn't get Improved Initiative before he can grab Precise Shot, but if he has a spare feat, he takes it because it's damn useful.
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Or you could be a Brawler, and have Fleet and/or Run only when you need it.
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That "once a campaign" situation comes up a lot more often if you get overpowered by the enemy because you picked Fleet over Power Attack.
See my above post, Arachnofiend, with the caveat that clearly I haven't been clear if this many people are interpreting what I said this way.
Or you could be a Brawler, and have Fleet and/or Run only when you need it.
Which is handy if you're a brawler. I don't think everyone's a brawler. ;P
Well, Skill Focus is definitely a good feat though, especially for builds that want to buff up a specific skill (anything that runs demoralize really likes Skill Focus).
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In a tactical movement game, your maximum movement per turn always matters. Increasing speed from 30 to 35 won't always make a difference, but double moving sure feels like a wasted turn to me. I like a good speed. Its just that there are usually feats I need even more.
Haste and expeditious retreat are also both things. Haste in particular is likely to be prepared so if you really need speed that seems like a way to do it. If that extra +30/20 speed wasn't enough for that once in a campaign situation then would the +5 have really made more of a difference?
This assumes a few things.
1. You have a caster with the spell. Not all parties have an arcane caster, and not all parties have hit that level yet. The lower levels are crazy dangerous, so they're gonna be when ten extra feet matter the most. Also, sometimes a sorcerer or bard just wants another spell more, and it's not always an option to murder them and make the player roll up a new sorcerer who's better at doing things.
2. The caster is able to get it off before you move. What if he moves after the monsters? Those two spells aren't very long-duration, so it's unlikely they'll be up before combat if you're, say traveling. Also, Expeditious Retreat is self-only.
In a tactical movement game, your maximum movement per turn always matters. Increasing speed from 30 to 35 won't always make a difference, but double moving sure feels like a wasted turn to me. I like a good speed. Its just that there are usually feats I need even more.
This is basically my belief. There are times my character isn't exactly desperate for feats, and in those cases I feel pretty comfortable grabbing a flavor feat, or a feat like Fleet/Nimble Step/Endurance (look, even without Diehard, sometimes it's really nice being able to sleep in armor if you have the sort of assjackal GM who springs campfire encounters on you a lot).
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I don't like fleet, because honestly I'd prefer to just dip or get an item to increase speed rather than spend a feet on a 5' bonus. Also there are a few feats that give a higher bonus to characters who would tend to want higher speed when they need it rather than constantly, or give 5' and bonuses without the limitations, along with the fact that there are a lot of spells and class abilities that increase speed. Example feats: Elemental Vigor, Force Dash, Longshanks, Totem Spirit(Wind Clan), and Tribal Scars(Raptorscale).
Honestly, I might even say the same thing about Fleet's ugly cousin, Run. Who cares if it only comes up once in a campaign? That's once in a campaign that you get away and don't die. 150 feet versus 120 means that no matter what the longbowmen do, they're going to be at least one range increment off when they shoot, and you'll still have your Dex bonus.
I doubt I'd ever take Fleet, but I'd take Fleet over Run. With Fleet you can still run at 140 and you have the faster movement the rest of the time too.
Anyway, it's pretty rare you've got 150 feet of completely open terrain to run over - standing behind a tree is also effective against archers and requires no feats at all.
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There are just so many better ways to get increased speed than Fleet that you have to have absolutely nothing better to do with your feat slot to make it actually look like a good idea.
I played a class that got it as a bonus feat and never really noticed a difference.
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My problem with Fleet is that it is only 5 feet predicated on wearing light or no armor. It just doesn't seem worth it. 5 feet period might be worth it. Or 10 with light or no armor. As it stands now, it's just so weak.
Also, sometimes a sorcerer or bard just wants another spell more, and it's not always an option to murder them and make the player roll up a new sorcerer who's better at doing things.
Hey, if the casters aren't bound to their role to buff their allies then their allies aren't bound to their role to defend the casters. If you want to be a DPR machine you can stand in front like the rest of us...
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Haste and expeditious retreat are also both things. Haste in particular is likely to be prepared so if you really need speed that seems like a way to do it. If that extra +30/20 speed wasn't enough for that once in a campaign situation then would the +5 have really made more of a difference?This assumes a few things.
1. You have a caster with the spell. Not all parties have an arcane caster, and not all parties have hit that level yet. The lower levels are crazy dangerous, so they're gonna be when ten extra feet matter the most. Also, sometimes a sorcerer or bard just wants another spell more, and it's not always an option to murder them and make the player roll up a new sorcerer who's better at doing things.
2. The caster is able to get it off before you move. What if he moves after the monsters? Those two spells aren't very long-duration, so it's unlikely they'll be up before combat if you're, say traveling. Also, Expeditious Retreat is self-only.
I did forget Retreat was self-only, oops.
Sure it's a limited situation, but the times where needing Fleet to not die are limited too.
About getting the spell off, that's is fair too, but the same could be said about moving in general. If you don't go before the monster then I don't see how it matters. If we assume a optimized party, ie: the caster took initiative boosters over fleet, then we might assume the caster will have a high initiative order.
Lower levels are also a nice time when going first could be good, I might be a fighter who wants to move more, but I generally would rather just move before the enemy and hit them first (since iterative attacks don't matter at that point). So I don't see how Fleet is better than something like improved initiative (or toughness) at this point.
But, I agree, the whole thing is situation specific, I was just using it as an example of why I don't like fleet. It, as a feat, has a certain lackluster boost to it, and every time that I can think I might like it, I can think of many other things I would rather have happen (or a different feat/effect that could have performed the task better).
The pouncing beast totem barbarian is in medium armor and can't use Fleet. She might be an Urban Barb, but then she is drowning in must have feats (Fencing Grace, all it's prereqs, and of course the oodles of Extra Rage Power any Barb craves) that she couldn't possibly make room for Fleet.
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A caster I play with sometimes picks fleet up at level 7 or 9 to be able to use close range or touch spells (move 30' + 5' step + level 9 close range spell distance of 45' = 80' range), but that has as much to do with not having a feat they want as for the extra movement.
You can't 5' step after moving 30'.
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It is not so much that movement is undervalued, which is how you are probably looking at it Kobold Cleaver. It is more that 5 feet of movement is over-valued by charging a feat for it.
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And that's what I think is wrong with the current way people optimize. People can't see the trees for the forest and they forget that every "once a campaign" combat tends to involve life or death. If a fight gets to where running away is an attractive strategy, you're gonna want to be able to run. If the scout is caught in a melee seventy feet ahead, you're gonna want to be able to charge. Fleet and Run aren't must-haves, but they have real benefits that are too often ignored because they don't add to often-used numbers.
The whole campaign ain't worth a damn if you get shot down in the fifth encounter. ;P
Most enemies are mobile enough that 5 more feet is not going to save you, if the GM really decides to have them chase you. If he does not really want to chase you that 5 feet still did not matter, and many times that other feat you could have had instead of fleet can make it so that you are not in a life or death encounter.
Most animals and similar creatures such as magical beast can outrun you. Bigger humanoid(shape not creature type) types such as giants will be faster.
If they are actually medium sized things such as gnolls, and your GM is not giving them ranged weapons then he is giving you a way out whether he knows it or not. If they have ranged weapons they can attack you from a decent distance if you run, even if they have to take penalties. They can move and shoot instead of taking full attacks also, well depending on the bow.
You also have flying enemies you can't outrun. If the monster has teleport he can just be waiting for you, and set an ambush<---This happened to me after getting my butt kicked by a bone devil.
Anyway, it's pretty rare you've got 150 feet of completely open terrain to run over..
This. We've ran from enemies in our campaigns, but I've seen run action taken only once in my 15 years of gaming.
It's most useful to people in heavy armor... who can't benefit from the feat due to the light/no armor restriction. At best I can see it being used by one of the small races running a lightly armored martial build, but you can expect those to be dex-based and therefore not have the feats to spend one on Fleet.
I think this is really the feat's biggest stumbling block. The light/no armor requirement makes it unappealing any martials other than dex-based ones, who tend to be relatively feat-starved.
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Most enemies are mobile enough that 5 more feet is not going to save you, if the GM really decides to have them chase you.
Well, it might save you in the sense of "I don't need outrun the big angry Dire Bear, I just need to outrun the rest of my party!"
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Most enemies are mobile enough that 5 more feet is not going to save you, if the GM really decides to have them chase you.Well, it might save you in the sense of "I don't need outrun the big angry Dire Bear, I just need to outrun the rest of my party!"
Maybe so. Ok, well most of the time...... :)
Well, I guess not even I can always be right. I had a good run, but it seems that run has ended. Goodbye, everyone.
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+5 ft in light armor would make a good trait.
Oh, wow, I didn't even notice it required light or no armor. That feat really is kinda terrible, then.
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Oh, wow, I didn't even notice it required light or no armor. That feat really is kinda terrible, then.
Right? Like, why on earth does it have that restriction? It's not like moving a whole 5 ft. faster even when heavily armored is a huge deal if you're spending a feat on it.
I absolutely agree that being able to add +5 ft. to your base speed in light armor would be a reasonable trait, however.
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I dunno.
If you play a merfolk with the strongtail alternate racial trait (15 ft. land speed), the Fleet feat (+5 ft.) and the Travel domain or barbarian (+10 ft.), you get a character who has +2 natural armor, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, +2 Charisma, no racial ability penalties, can't be tripped, and is amphibious, all while having the same base move as a typical Medium race character AND a 30 ft. swim speed.
I'd spend a feat on that.
If only for the visuals.
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Oh, wow, I didn't even notice it required light or no armor. That feat really is kinda terrible, then./thread
Also... I think the bloodrager/trickster in my WotR might have taken Fleet. Same guy who doesn't wear armor.
He could go Champion once Mythic stuff becomes available, and get a whopping +30 to his base movement speed with no restrictions from Impossible Speed.
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Mostly because I want to figure out a justification for my mermaid barbarian being from a Mammoth Lords tribe. :)
She's the mermaid equivalent of Captain Ahab, chasing a Great White Mammoth, maybe why not?
Contributor
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He could go Champion once Mythic stuff becomes available, and get a whopping +30 to his base movement speed with no restrictions from Impossible Speed.Oh, wow, I didn't even notice it required light or no armor. That feat really is kinda terrible, then./thread
Also... I think the bloodrager/trickster in my WotR might have taken Fleet. Same guy who doesn't wear armor.
Oh, he's already mythic. That's what the trickster refers to. :)
He might Dual Path for it, though. He does love him some speed.
How often does 5 feet make a difference?