Blade Adept Black Blade

[MATMATMAT!]

Hello everyone.

My questions are

0) Do you think that the Faq of the magus b. blade works with the blade adept's one, even if the two features are slightly different?

1) Does a Blade Adept's Black Blade still count as a bonded object after hits third level?

2) If answer to num. 1 is "yes" which rule does apply? It is treated as a bonded object or as a black blade or both?

3) If the answer to num. 2 is "it's treated as both bonded object and black blade" how would you rule it? What happens if the weapon is lost, destroyed or whatever?

4) If the Black blade ceases to be treated as your bonded object after level 3, can you create another bonded weapon?

5) If answer to num. 4 is "yes", can i have a bonded weapon and a black blade?

6) If another bonded weapon is created, does it "auto-awakes"?

7) If answer to num. 6 is "yes", can i have multiple black blades?

8) Why should the faq of the magus black blade overwrite the ruling for bonded objects in this case?

To me, it seems that the blade adept's class features are a bit confusing. I lean toward the interpretation that a blade adept's black blade is treated as both bonded object and black blade, and is completely different from the one granted by the bladebound magus and as such, it shouldn't fall under the same rulings. After all a magus cannot create his own black blade while the arcanist apparently can.

The Black Blade FAQ states a Magus Black Blade cannot be enchanted but a bonded object can. I read on these forums that the faq should work also for the arcanist. To me here there are two contrasting rulings for the same class feature, and there is no rule hierarchy that i am aware of, that clarifies which one should prevale, the bladebound magus FAQ on one hand and the Bonded object rules on the other.

Thanks for your attention

[kestral287]

0. It gains the Black Blade of a Magus so yes.

1. Generally assumed to be yes though it's never called out specifically.

2. Both.

3. 200 gp per Arcanist level. It's a Black Blade and follows Black Blade rules, but the only difference between the two replacements is that the Wizard has to pay the cost of the masterwork item-- which doesn't make sense for a Black Blade.

4. No, see #2. Even then, no.

5. Only the Arcanist can, and only because they're the same weapon.

6. Not sure what you're asking.

7. No.

8. The Arcanist follows the rules because the Arcanist explicitly has a Black Blade as a Magus. That means it follows the rules of the Magus' blade, save the differences noted. "Can be enchanted" is not a noted difference.

The Bonded Item has no specific ability that says "you can enchant this in some special way". A Bonded Item follows all of the normal rules of enchanted items, save that you don't need the feat. So, both sets of rules apply:

You can enchant a bonded any enchantments added as normal for a Black Blade, but you don't need the requisite feat to enchant it.

Since "as normal for a Black Blade" is not at all, the result of this combination is pretty straightforward.

[Ellias Aubec]

A Soul Forger/Bladebound Magus should also be able to get a bonded object blackblade as well.

[Eltacolibre]

heh it doesn't matter the blade adept of arcanist is there for only one reason, for people to go into Eldritch Knight, the fact that blade adept use caster level instead of class level was literally made for this.

Interacting with a magus is just hurting you in the end, if you are a blade adept.

[Bladelock]

MATMATMAT! wrote:

To me, it seems that the blade adept's class features are a bit confusing. I lean toward the interpretation that a blade adept's black blade is treated as both bonded object and black blade, and is completely different from the one granted by the bladebound magus and as such, it shouldn't fall under the same rulings. After all a magus cannot create his own black blade while the arcanist apparently can.

The Black Blade FAQ states a Magus Black Blade cannot be enchanted but a bonded object can. I read on these forums that the faq should work also for the arcanist. To me here there are two contrasting rulings for the same class feature, and there is no rule hierarchy that i am aware of, that clarifies which one should prevale, the bladebound magus FAQ on one hand and the Bonded object rules on the other.

Thanks for your attention

I agree that the way the Arcanist Blade Adept is not at all clear. The transition from bonded sword to black blade doesn't make much sense to me either. The rules say you can't enchant a black blade AFTER it becomes a black blade. However nothing is said about what happens to an enchanted blade that gets a Black Blade template added. It's a major oversight.

I personally think the Black Blade template should use the enchantment bonus of the bonded item until the black blade's enhancement bonus is greater than the bonded item. It should also keep all the other enhancement based special abilities already on the bonded item.

However, as I said, it is not at all clear.

[Katydid]

Slightly related question. If the Blade Adept can "use her arcane reservoir in place of the magus' arcane pool" with the magus arcana exploit, could she regain arcane points with a wyroot weapon? Could she choose a wyroot weapon as her arcane bond before it becomes a black blade, and if so, would it still be made from wyroot?

[kestral287]

Katydid wrote:

Slightly related question. If the Blade Adept can "use her arcane reservoir in place of the magus' arcane pool" with the magus arcana exploit, could she regain arcane points with a wyroot weapon? Could she choose a wyroot weapon as her arcane bond before it becomes a black blade, and if so, would it still be made from wyroot?

No.

The Magus Arcana exploit's rules apply to itself and no further.

Parse it as a similar question. The Paladin can Unsanctioned Knowledge to learn Bard spells. He now has an ability (Bard spells) that uses a resource of the Paladin's (spell slots). Does this mean that he can now use Runestones of Power, because they work with the spells of an actual Bard?

Of course not, because it doesn't change what his resources are-- he's still a prepared spellcaster. The fact that he has some new way to spend those resources doesn't change what those resources are.

[Katydid]

Ah, good to know. Thanks.

[MATMATMAT!]

Thanks to everyone for contributing.

So it appears that is generally an accepted interpretation that blade adept's blackblade works both as a wizard's bonded object as well as a magus blackblade, and that it cannot be normally enchanted.

Kestral287 thanks for letting me understand exactly why. I have to say i agree with this explanation. The question number six is: If i loose my bonded blackblade lets say at level 6, according to the bonded object rules i can create another bonded object. Would this newly created weapon become automatically a blackblade?

I was wondering then, can i sell my blackblade and create another one using the rules of bonded objects? Would the sold one stop being a bonded blackblade (following the bonded object rules) or would it continue to be an intelligent not very cooperative weapon (according to the black blade rules)?

[Benjamin Kirksey]

MATMATMAT! wrote:

I was wondering then, can i sell my blackblade and create another one using the rules of bonded objects? Would the sold one stop being a bonded blackblade (following the bonded object rules) or would it continue to be an intelligent not very cooperative weapon (according to the black blade rules)?

Well, this seems like a deliberate attempt to game the system. I know that I and at least one of the GMs I've had wouldn't stand for this. Something I noticed is that the bonded item rules say you can replace your bonded item after a week if it has been lost or destroyed, not if it was sold. The same is true for a Black Blade except it just says destroyed. Either way, replacing it costs 200gp per level (minimum level 3), and it might be kind of hard to find someone to buy it off you for that price in the first place.

As for what happens to the one you sold, it would become inert (as a dismissed familiar becomes an inert animal) once you performed the replacement ritual, if not sooner. Also, you would have a penalty to spellcasting until you reclaimed or replaced it.

I think some of the wording in this thread is a little iffy, so I'm going to have to ask two questions of my own about these arcanist-style Black Blades:
1) Can an arcanist put permanent enhancements on her Black Blade in the same way that a wizard can put permanent enhancements on her bonded objects?
2) Can an arcanist spend points from her arcane reservoir to temporarily boost her Black Blade in the same way a Magus can use her arcane pool to do the same?
I don't really expect the answer to both questions to be yes, but I'm hoping at least one of them is, or I'll have to spring for the Arcane Weapon exploit.

[Decim8or]

I agree with Bladelock. If you choose a +1 Flaming Longsword as your Bonded Item, then hit level 3 turning it into a Black Blade, does it lose the Flaming quality? It's adding the intelligent template after the fact.

What if you had chosen a named magic item that specifically allows it to be "upgraded" before it becomes a Black Blade? Does becoming a Black Blade nullify that ability?

I'm in the school of thought that the +10 limitation for total enhancements should be maintained, however they get to that +10 is up to the wielder.