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Can one maintain a bardic masterpiece and a bardic performance such as inspire courage at the same time?
I thought that bardic masterpieces were bardic performances due to the line "masterpieces, unusual applications of the bardic performance ability requiring special training." I've been told that wasn't the case though, and that James Jacobs confirmed it in the ask James Jacobs thread, which I checked and is accurate.
So by a strictly RAW standpoint (PFS) can I maintain a bardic masterpiece and a bardic performance at the same time?
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In addition in Melee Tactics Toolbox it says "masterpieces
give bards new ways to use their bardic performance
ability at the cost of a feat or spell known." which would imply that is counts as a bardic performance?
Battle Song of the People's Revolt specifically refers to the masterpiece as a performance as well. So I'm very confused.
Bardic Music and Masterpieces are different abilities that happen to use the same fuel (Performance rounds).
You can maintain one Performance and one Masterpiece at the same time.
Bardic Music and Masterpieces are different abilities that happen to use the same fuel (Performance rounds).
You can maintain one Performance and one Masterpiece at the same time.
And if you have a masterpiece that does not need sustaining (has x number of rounds in effect--such as Vindictive Soliliquoy), you could have an additional masterpiece active.
So you could be inspiring courage, enabling everyone to use Outflank(or whichever teamwork feat you chose with Battle Song of the People's Revolt) and call down thunder if you had already set up Vindictive Soliliquoy. Ah, the bardic satisfaction in that would be tremendous.
Bardic Music and Masterpieces are different abilities that happen to use the same fuel (Performance rounds).
You can maintain one Performance and one Masterpiece at the same time.
Can you cite a rule on that, please? I haven’t found any evidence that a masterpiece is anything but another type of performance added to a bard’s list of performances.
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Right, I really can't tell the difference on this. The only available evidence saying that Bardic Masterpieces aren't bardic performances directly is a post by James Jacobs on the ask James Jacobs thread. In addition, assuming that bardic masterpieces aren't performances mlp & fourshadow where did you come up with you can only maintain one bardic masterpiece at a time?
If you are using a bardic masterpiece that requires perform (Percussion) do you need to play a percussion intrument when doing it?
Sorry for all the questions, I am usually quite good with rules lawyering, but this is giving me a massive headache.
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Here are the bardic masterpiece rules:
Talented bards can learn or create masterpieces, unusual applications of the bardic performance ability requiring special training.
GMs can use these masterpieces to inspire their own ideas for other masterpieces. Masterpieces should generally be no more powerful than a cleric or sorcerer/wizard spell available to a caster of the same level as the minimum level needed to select the masterpiece (a masterpiece requiring 7 ranks in Perform requires a 7th-level bard, and thus should not be more powerful than a 4th-level cleric or sorcerer/wizard spell).
Masterpiece descriptions adhere to the following guidelines:
So note the first line, "unusual applications of the bardic performance ability." Note that this doesn't say, "Bardic masterpieces are treated as a bardic performance."
Second, note the line, "Masterpiece descriptions adhere to the following guidelines:" This is literally stating that everything that follows are the rules that all bardic masterpieces follow. Again, they could have said, "In addition to the standard bardic performance rules, bardic masterpieces adhere to the following guidelines:" They didn't.
Here are those guidelines:
In addition to the name of the masterpiece, this line indicates which Perform skill or skills the masterpiece relies upon.
Prerequisites: Like feats, masterpieces have prerequisites that a bard must meet in order to learn them. Only bards may learn masterpieces.
Cost: Each masterpiece has an associated cost to learn it. Typically, a bard must spend one of his bard spells known of a specific spell level or select it in place of a feat. The bard can spend a bard spell known of a level higher than the listed level to learn a masterpiece (for example, spending a 4th-level spell known to learn a masterpiece that requires spending a 3rd-level spell known).
Effect: This brief description summarizes what occurs when a bard performs the masterpiece. Unless otherwise stated, a masterpiece's effects are supernatural. Unwilling creatures may attempt a Will save against the effect of a masterpiece; the save DC for masterpieces is equal to 10 + 1/2 the bard's level + the bard's Charisma bonus. Masterpieces that duplicate spells use the bard's caster level for the spell's caster level.
Use: This line specifies how many bardic performance rounds the bard must use to activate the masterpiece. In some cases, the bard can extend the duration of the masterpiece by expending additional rounds of bardic performance, just as if it were any other use of bardic performance. The bard expends the listed number of bardic performance rounds when he starts performing the masterpiece; if he is interrupted, the attempt fails and the spent performance rounds are lost.
Action: This line indicates the type of action performing the masterpiece requires. If it only requires a standard action to activate, being able to activate a bardic performance more quickly (at 7th level, activation is a move action, and at 13th, it becomes a swift action) applies to the masterpiece as well. Unless otherwise stated, effects or feats that extend the duration of bardic performance (such as the Lingering Performance feat) do not apply to masterpieces.
Read through it. There are only two mentions of the bardic performance class feature: first, in usage. The ability tells you how rounds of bardic performance are spent; nothing else. Second, in action. This (or in effect) would have been the PERFECT place to say, "bardic masterpieces count as a bardic performance," or "a bard cannot have both a bardic masterpiece and a bardic performance active at once." Note, neither section states this. The closest thing we get is that "being able to activate a bardic performance more quickly applies to the masterpiece as well." Note that it doesn't say that bardic masterpieces are bardic performances; instead, it makes a connection that would not have existed if it wasn't specifically called out. This one wouldn't be needed if bardic masterpieces were bardic performances.
Saying that a Bardic Masterpiece is a Bardic Performance just because they both use the same rounds per day resource is like saying that the Inspired Strike feat is an investigator talent because they both require inspiration to activate and both reference that resource in their description, or that gunslinger/swashbuckler dares are deeds because they both use grit/panache.
To iterate, I'm NOT saying that bardic masterpieces weren't intended to be exclusive with bardic performances (although honestly, they're cooler if they can be use in concordanced). What I AM saying is that as the bardic masterpiece is currently worded, there is nothing to suggest that they CAN'T be used simultaneously.
If you want this clarified and/or want to see the PDT strike me down with the Hammer of Pathfinder Law, please click "FAQ" on the first post in this thread to increase the chance that the Pathfinder Design Team will look at the OP's question. Thank you.
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So my reading of this is almost exactly opposite yours.
The part of the rule that says masterpieces are unusual applications of the bardic performance ability to me says that you are directly using the bardic performance ability to use a masterpiece, therefore it is a bardic performance.
The rational behind the rules stated is because they are all exceptions to the usual rules for standard performances.
The prerequisite line tells you what you need to do to learn the masterpiece, where most bardic performances you just get at X level.
The cost line tells you that instead of getting this as a base class feature you need to give something up to get it.
The effect line just tells you what the ability does.
The use line is where things get interesting. It specifically says that bardic masterpieces are uses of bardic performance, but different from the base bardic performances and clarifies how round usage works for them.
The action line tells you what sort of action it is, and since these actions can be different than a standard action elaborates on that. It says like normal bardic performances, if it usually uses a standard action the usual reductions apply. This is needed not because the masterpiece is generally not a bardic performance, but because many of them take longer than a standard action to apply. In addition, if masterpieces weren't bardic performances the line about lingering performance would be redundant since it would be clear it didn't work. Since they are bardic performances, the designers felt the need to say that lingering performance doesn't work on these, unless otherwise stated.
That is my interpretation of the ability, and I thought that Bardic Masterpieces were performances and thus wouldn't stack. The only evidence contrary to this in my eyes was a 4 year old ambiguous post which I asked for clarification on and was told that "Bardic Masterpiece's are bardic performances" which seems to indicate that as usual you can only perform one bardic masterpiece or performance at a time.
I also request that this post be FAQ'ed and people chime in. I'd love to see a Pathfinder Design Team post on this subject on a Friday soon, since there still seems to be some disagreement
I also think it would be more interesting but not balanced if Masterpieces could be performed at the same time as base performances but I just don't see support for that in the RAW or RAI. In additon, if they could, I don't see any rules saying how many masterpieces could be performed simultaneously or how they interact if they use the same perform skill along with various other similar issues. Which I see as more evidence that they are performances, since it solves all my issues and confusion over how the abilities work. The only new issue that comes up if we go with Masterpices are bardic performances is how they would interact with virtuoso performance since it would give a slight buff to that spell (since it could be used with expensive per round cost but relatively short activation time performances to net a few extra rounds of bardic performance) This seems like a much better situation to me than all the issues if Masterpieces don't count as performances.
Yeah, so, apparently, when James Jacobs gave his ambiguous answer way back, I interpreted it to mean, "Masterpieces are not worthless." And it has given me a great deal of joy playing bards. However, someone just asked him to clarify his answer, and apparently, he meant, "no, you must continue to only spend Performance rounds on Inspire Courage and nothing else (maybe Thundercall, which we left as is even though we fix-nerfed weird words)--this super cool and versatile concept should never see the light of day!"
Seriously, I love Bards harder than any other class in the game. I loved them even when they sucked in early 3rd edition.
When I first read the Pathfinder Bards, I was super bummed that there were no longer ways to twist multiple songs together. In Pathfinder, I've used Fascination a few times, Countersong once, and otherwise, 100% of my performance rounds have been spent on Inspire Courage. It is so much more powerful than every other option that I was grateful to have the ability to use Masterpieces at the same time and mix things up.
FAQ'd because I really would like to focus on the masterpieces more but don't want to give up inspire courage.
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