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I admit that I'm a bit of a jerk though, when I encounter over-engineered, new stuff, I try to playtest it by intentionally trying to find situations and things it was never meant to adjudicate and making those my bread and butter. ...
I would agree that is kind of a jerk thing to do. EVERY system will have things it doesn't handle well. Including whichever one you happen to prefer. Would you appreciate someone joining your game, researching to find what it does poorly, then only playing that one thing just so he can say it isn't perfect.
I'm guessing not.
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I've found a lot of older systems just leave stuff up to the DM that new systems try futilely to shoe horn into their OS.
That is both a strength and a weakness. If you have a consistent and reasonable GM, it can be great. But then that means he is essentially making new rule for that thing even if they are only in his head.
If the GM isn't, you don't know what you can do. Or a different GM would interpret differently and you wouldn't know about it until too late.A common example in the older editions was illusions. If the GM thought is was a kool idea, advanced the story line, or was original - well, you could do almost anything with a low level illusion.
If he didn't like the idea, it didn't fit his mental storyline, or he was tired of you using it all the time - well suddenly, your illusions were suddenly less believable compared to last week.
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I've found a lot of older systems just leave stuff up to the DM that new systems try futilely to shoe horn into their OS.That is both a strength and a weakness. If you have a consistent and reasonable GM, it can be great. But then that means he is essentially making new rule for that thing even if they are only in his head.
If the GM isn't, you don't know what you can do. Or a different GM would interpret differently and you wouldn't know about it until too late.A common example in the older editions was illusions. If the GM thought is was a kool idea, advanced the story line, or was original - well, you could do almost anything with a low level illusion.
If he didn't like the idea, it didn't fit his mental storyline, or he was tired of you using it all the time - well suddenly, your illusions were suddenly less believable compared to last week.
Yup, back in the 1e days I had some "friends" who constantly derided another friend's illusionist and had a mantra of sarcastically parroting the "40% real" quote from the Players Handbook. They didn't like him, and were cliquey, so his character was shunted. Bad times.
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Huh. I had no idea hipsters were superior arrogant bigots. Go figure. Must be the bags.We really need to come up with a commensurate term for the other end of this particular spectrum.
The anti-grognard, the guy who's on a perpetual quest for novelty and harbors a Hegelian belief that game systems are slowly marching towards a state of undefinable perfection.
RPG Hipsters?
"Oh, you're still playing D&D? That's cute. I do REAL role-playing with an Apocalypse World hack I've added some FATE elements to. Plus my custom rules for shotguns."
"Superior arrogant bigot with 'retro' glasses and a very unmanly beard" pretty much defines "hipster".
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"Superior arrogant bigot with 'retro' glasses and a very unmanly beard" pretty much defines "hipster".Huh. I had no idea hipsters were superior arrogant bigots. Go figure. Must be the bags.We really need to come up with a commensurate term for the other end of this particular spectrum.
The anti-grognard, the guy who's on a perpetual quest for novelty and harbors a Hegelian belief that game systems are slowly marching towards a state of undefinable perfection.
RPG Hipsters?
"Oh, you're still playing D&D? That's cute. I do REAL role-playing with an Apocalypse World hack I've added some FATE elements to. Plus my custom rules for shotguns."
Usually also a fan of the phrase 'Oh, you still (verb), how quaint!' or 'This is (year) we've moved on!'
And yeah, to the earlier commenters, I admitted I'm a jerk in my predilection to poke holes in new systems while in play. I have no recourse or excuse and I merely request that you all pray to your respective celestial entities that I might become more charitable towards my fellow man.
I've noticed new system design, in general, as of late seem to have a push towards the collaborative and the vague. As opposed to hard stats and individual items, people try for a more cinematic approach. I guess people are getting more crunch needs from video games these days.
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Charity to our fellow man does not extend to excusing the flaws of gaming systems.
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I've noticed new system design, in general, as of late seem to have a push towards the collaborative and the vague. As opposed to hard stats and individual items, people try for a more cinematic approach. I guess people are getting more crunch needs from video games these days.It would be perfectly possible to bring up examples of the exact opposite, of "old school" games that were vague and provided limited crunch and "new style" games that weren't remotely cooperative and went out of their way to provide lots of crunch. Both arguments would seem to be wrong; the range of different RPGs has always been broad enough to encompass vague rules, precise rules, high crunch, low crunch, and everything in between.
Perception colors the grognard. :)
I grew up with stuff like AD&D, Mechwarrior, GURPS and the like. FASA stuff is so crunchy that it feels like mathematics homework.
These days I hear more stuff like Serenity RPG, Dogs in the Vinyard, Prime Time Adventures and the like.
It might also have to do with the metagame being bigger these days. The only touch I had back in the day for AD&D's "metagame" was the Forum articles in Dragon magazine.
You bring up GURPS and then mention something else being too crunchy for your tastes?
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GURPS has complicated math? I didn't notice any but then I only used the basic rules. I can't imagine any RPG with complicated math rules really. What possible reason would there be to introduce things like integrals to a role playing game?
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GURPS has complicated math? I didn't notice any but then I only used the basic rules. I can't imagine any RPG with complicated math rules really. What possible reason would there be to introduce things like integrals to a role playing game?
Its more that character generation felt like I was filling in an accounting balance sheet.
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GURPS has complicated math? I didn't notice any but then I only used the basic rules. I can't imagine any RPG with complicated math rules really. What possible reason would there be to introduce things like integrals to a role playing game?
For a while in the late 70s I was playing an OD&D variant designed by a math PhD with too much time on his hands. Though there was no need to do integrals during play, he'd assembled the to hit chart using one. (OTOH, there were more than a few trig functions and logs to be found elsewhere in the bookkeeping.) It was one of those games that you need a lot of free time to play--unpleasant combination of OD&D character mortality rate and 3.x or worse character creation time requirement. But the DMs were excellent.
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GURPS has complicated math? I didn't notice any but then I only used the basic rules. I can't imagine any RPG with complicated math rules really. What possible reason would there be to introduce things like integrals to a role playing game?
Try GURPS vehicles and try to make a sailboat. You'll need a scientific calculator.
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GURPS has complicated math? I didn't notice any but then I only used the basic rules. I can't imagine any RPG with complicated math rules really. What possible reason would there be to introduce things like integrals to a role playing game?
You need to create a FATAL character.
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You need to create a FATAL character.GURPS has complicated math? I didn't notice any but then I only used the basic rules. I can't imagine any RPG with complicated math rules really. What possible reason would there be to introduce things like integrals to a role playing game?
No one needs to make a FATAL character.
People need to not make FATAL characters.
Won't anyone think of the children?!
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Here, here! or is it Huzzah? I can never remember. 'Must be old.
...GGG, is that you?
Also a shout out for Ninjas & Superspies. And TMNT.
I am unfamiliar with FATAL... it uses integrals? For what?
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Here, here! or is it Huzzah? I can never remember. 'Must be old....GGG, is that you?
Also a shout out for Ninjas & Superspies. And TMNT.
Ninja's and Superspies mixed with Beyond the Supernatural was a total blast back in the day.
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Here, here! or is it Huzzah? I can never remember. 'Must be old....GGG, is that you?
Also a shout out for Ninjas & Superspies. And TMNT.Ninja's and Superspies mixed with Beyond the Supernatural was a total blast back in the day.
I usually went with a TMNT/Heroes Unlimited mix. I had a mutant wolverine with cybernetics AND superpowers.
I am unfamiliar with FATAL... it uses integrals? For what?
You don't wanna know. Trust me.
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The easier the system with wider applications, the better.
Therefore, Savage Worlds!
Five minute character generation! Two minute combat turns! Generic setting application! Damn near zero flavor text with spells like "blast" that can be flavored any way you feel like!
Savage Mother#$*@ing Worlds!!!
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for Aranna:
(spoilered to protect the sanity of the innocent)
Manhood of a male character is his penis. Most males consider their Manhood to be their most treasured possession. Some races value their Manhoods more than others. Anakim, bugbears, dark elves, humans, and kobolds consider their Manhoods more important than other races. Manhood is important for sexual intercourse, because usually, size matters. 2 measures may be useful: length and circumference.
Different females prefer different sizes and shapes of Manhoods. A Manhood with a larger circumference than its length is known as a chode. Most females prefer a Manhood that is thick so she feels it, but not thick enough to hurt, and long, but not long enough to hit the end of her vagina. Some females prefer veins, others do not want to see them. Some females prefer that the head, or glans, is large and puffy, while others do not care. A phallophiliac, for example, prefers the largest Manhood available. Below a player may determine the length and circumference of a Manhood. Other details are left to the Aedile.
Length: The height (or length) of the character (or creature) in feet is converted directly to inches (6’ = 6”; 5’ 10” = 5.83”). This is the Base Length of his Manhood.
Then roll 10d100, divide the sum by 5, and subtract 1 from the total [(10d100 / 5) - 1]. Consult the table below:
The resultant percentage is applied to the Base Length of the character’s Manhood, determining the actual length. For instance, a Manhood roll of 115 indicates a Size Modifier of + 28%. If the character were 6’ tall, then the length of his Manhood would now be 7.68 inches (28% of 6 = 1.68; so, 6 + 1.68).
Note that this is the shortest measurable length, taken from the top or belly-button side, not the bottom or testicular side, and constitutes all that a female may take from a missionary position. However, if the female were to mount the Manhood from above while facing her partner and leaning back, she would actually take 1.15 times the Base Length, accounting for the remainder. For instance, with a Base Length of 6 inches, with experimentation, it is possible for the female to enjoy 6.9 inches, depending on the angle.
Circumference: The Base Length of the Manhood is now multiplied by 0.85. This is the Base Circumference of the Manhood in question.
Finally, roll [(10d100 / 5) - 1], observe the Size Modifier on the table above, and apply this modifier to the Base Circumference to determine the actual circumference.
1. The Manhood Size Modifier was solved with a polynomial using quadratic regression based on what Fatal Games believes is the smallest to largest possible Manhood relative to height. In the following equation, ‘x’ represents the category of roll (1- 6 = 1, 7-12 = 2, etc.), and ‘y’ = Size Modifier. Here is the equation: y = 0.205078125x2 + 0.68359375x - 70.888671875.
So, no integrals, but there is a quadratic regression. :P
Wow. FATAL has THAT much detail in stat generation?! Why? If I get the chance I will have to ask the developers what they were thinking. I mean stats on a male appendage that isn't likely to even see any use most of the time seems a silly thing to make rules for.
Wow. FATAL has THAT much detail in stat generation?! Why? If I get the chance I will have to ask the developers what they were thinking. I mean stats on a male appendage that isn't likely to even see any use most of the time seems a silly thing to make rules for.
Trust me, that's the least offensive thing about the game. I don't remember everything I read but females with high charisma take penalties to strength and I'm pretty sure r--- is listed somewhere in the rulebooks.
It has a stat called enunciation and a skill for urination...
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Um... ok yes I now believe Kthulhu is correct FATAL was some form of parody or trolling.
Uhhhh... No. I have (which makes me feel dirty just thinking about it, and not in a good way either) read enough of it. Horrible tables, stupid racist crap, idiotic skills and mechanics, cut and paste text blocks repeated too many times, kinderfresser ogres... And ACP. You do NOT want to know what ACP stands for. It is a game half-written, half-vomited onto the scene to be edgy, innovative and exciting. 0 of 3 actually IS pretty bad.
OTOH, it's inspired some really amusing reviews and provided gamers with something to laugh at and finally ended any arguments about what's the worst RPG of all time.
And it provides a virtual big neon glowing warning sign to stay away from anyone that says, "I always like FATAL. It seemed pretty logical and realistic to me. I don't understand why everyone had so many problems with it." {{ shudder chills }}
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Uhhhh... No. I have (which makes me feel dirty just thinking about it, and not in a good way either) read enough of it. Horrible tables, stupid racist crap, idiotic skills and mechanics, cut and paste text blocks repeated too many times, kinderfresser ogres... And ACP. You do NOT want to know what ACP stands for. It is a game half-written, half-vomited onto the scene to be edgy, innovative and exciting. 0 of 3 actually IS pretty bad.
Dang it Sissyl, haven't you read any Lovecraft?
They're just going to look it up now, just like I did years ago when someone mentioned it to me along with 'You don't want to know!'.
FATAL is no place of honor. No highly esteemed deed is memorialized there. Nothing of value is there!
It. Is. Not. Parody.
Believe it.
Also... if you read it, your brain will never recover.
I can take the hint I will avoid FATAL.
SomethingAwful's "not a review" of FATAL, is probably the best review of FATAL I have ever read (NSFW)
It is 1002 pages of the worst crap I had ever seen. And yes, I have looked through FATAL, and I don't think I will ever recover. I kept hearing things about this system, and I had to see for myself. It is about the worst thing I have ever done thanks to curiosity. It does have algebraic formula for some things.
OTOH, it's inspired some really amusing reviews and provided gamers with something to laugh at and finally ended any arguments about what's the worst RPG of all time.
Just reading that review triggered a SAN check for me...
Didn't the something awful guys do a 'not review' of exalted as well? I remember them doing several systems.
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The sad and frightening part is that despite what is said. Fatal at first was not a parody. It was apparently a serious attempt at a rpg. Those in the hobby insists its a parody because no one wants to believe that it was a serious attempt. Made worse when the developers of the rpg adamantly defended their game. When reviews pretty much tore it apart. Deservedly too IMO.
Before I forget DO NOT READ IT!!!!!
...ACP... *sniffs*
What does FATAL stand for?
Or is it even an Acronym?
I can always look for myself.... but I'm a little scared to :-)