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Love the irony on being ninjad to reikos back-story.
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Not to complain but was that supposed to be even hinted at in the backstory? I didn't remember anything and just went back and reread and still didn't notice anything. Am I just oblivious?
No, because Reiko's gender identity is not why she ended up an adventurer, nor what continues to drive her.
Reiko's backstory can be found here. Reading it, I'm not really seeing the genderfluid identity; Reiko is referred to multiple times as a woman and is given feminine pronouns.
It's not something that I felt comfortable addressing at the time that I wrote it, due to my own lack of understanding about gender fluidity, and I'm still not sure how I would address it, even now. (And honestly would have felt tacked on, which is not cool for a lot of reasons.) But in my head, Reiko does not identify strongly on either end of the spectrum, but does default to a feminine one when dealing with people that aren't close friends. Platonic relationships are more important to Reiko (and maybe a romantic relationship, but not a sexual one).
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Isn't this exactly the issue? Unless it is an actual part of the story (for example, some noble demanding his son to marry a woman and produce an heir, but the son is a homoromantic asexual, and the story explains the crux of the issue in one way or another) or the author explicitly explains it later, we have no idea what the gender, sexuality, or kibbles and bits of iconics or NPCs are.
The DMs or players are free to speculate and adjust as they desire. After all, are all characters who do not 'partake' in tavern wenches asexual? No. Neither are characters whose stories do not involve romantic pursuits aromantic. Their personalities, preferences, circumstances, whatever might have such concerns pushed aside. In most cases we do not know any characters' private lives and thoughts, their self identities or attachments.
Nonetheless, I do not believe the topic itself should be avoided like holy/unholy water. But it must be addressed in a way that doesn't reek of tokenism or lazy writing. Would you really make someone being nonbinary/asexual/genderfluid a plot point? How would that happen? It's one thing if the town sheriff goes "My name is Jitt-- No, I prefer 'they'." and continue on their talk about the zombie menace. A whole another thing if you becomes a sort of hamfisted comedic scene: quest giver socialite shows up in a three piece pantsuit and a tophat, introduces themselves as Joseph, a man's man, then two days later it's Josie in silken scarves and pincurls, thanking PCs for speedily assisting a lady. Are you ready to explain this outside the game or will you go along when players get suspicious that this is some sort of disguise or something more nefarious? This is a world of possessions and cursed items and mind affecting tricks. Would the players not even be allowed to question something like this in game, since it's a sensitive topic?
I wrote Reiko's backstory, so yes. Genderqueer/genderfluid asexual.Is this canon for Reiko? If so, w00t! (If not, that's cool too.)If there were a genderfluid iconic I honestly would find that pretty cool.Aww, thank you.Not to complain but was that supposed to be even hinted at in the backstory? I didn't remember anything and just went back and reread and still didn't notice anything. Am I just oblivious?
Or was it left out to be filled out in later fiction? Comics or elsewhere.
Cool either way, just a little odd to have it in there, but not acknowledged.
Yeah, it's Word Of God. About as canon as Dumbledore, which is a shame. I'm a firm believer in Death of the Author, so as far as I'm concerned, Reiko being genderfluid is just a fun headcanon.
One I'm happy to subscribe to, of course.
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Best plan if you want to spread awareness? Start doing it yourself. Make an agender character, play with them through an adventure path, and keep a campaign journal to post on the Paizo forums.
Don't wait and demand to be delivered by someone else later when you can go for it yourself now. Will it reach as many people? No. Will it be ridiculed? Yes. Nobody's pretending like it's going to be easy, but being among the first never is. But hey, if you get a few hundred people paying attention on the site, maybe one of them will be a Paizo developer, and they can see that an interesting and relatable narrative can be formed from such a context.
This is Oceanshieldwolf's character in a Thunderscape CS PbP - a being of a plant race (reskinned, tweaked Ghoran) that I've decided is "androgyne" - a term that I either invented or misapplied depending on your knowledge, relaxedness or point of you to refer to Ommka having no gender. Perhaps agender is better, or monoecious if you want to get botanically further incorrect about it - at this stage Ommka has a reduced lifespan due to Ommka's genesis, and is infertile/sterile.
It is damm'd difficult writing Ommka's posts without just saying "Ommka's".
Note that initially Ommka was gendered, and female, but I decided genderless/androgyne fit the character concept better.
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I keep seeing this "If you don't know about it, google it!" atitude, as if that were a good substitute for open dialogue...
Sure, no one has the obligation of explaining the finer points of non-binary sexuality... But then again, no one has the obligation to know about it either. And it seems to me that the ones who would benefit more from spreading a clear understanding of the picture are exactly the people who have an unusual gender identity.
Google can (and most certainly will) give a variety of different (often conflicting) explanations. If you want people to understand something, then you better be open to talk about it. You don't have to give your lifetime story or private details, but a clear and polite explanation goes a long way to bridge gaps of ignorance and misunderstanding.
I personally don't know much about gender-fluidity (is that even the correct term?), but if someone told me they are genderfluid and/or want to see more genderfluid characters in media, and I then asked "What's genderfluid?" and the person told me to "google it", I'd almost certainly roll my eyes ans forget about it... If it's not important enough for you, the interested party, to talk about it... Why should it be important enough for me to research it?
I'm all for mutual understanding, acceptance, equality and cooperation... But how can we achieve that if we're not willing to talk openly and honestly?
If you don't want to talk about it, that's your right... But don't expect others to understand anything you aren't willing to clarify. It's not their obligation.
And this goes for every possible topic, not just gender identity... If someone asked me what is RPG and I just told them to google it instead of taking the time to explain it to them, it'd be foolish and rather hipocritical of me to blame them for being misinformed or ignorant about the subject.
Best plan if you want to spread awareness? Start doing it yourself. Make an agender character, play with them through an adventure path, and keep a campaign journal to post on the Paizo forums.
Don't wait and demand to be delivered by someone else later when you can go for it yourself now. Will it reach as many people? No. Will it be ridiculed? Yes.
Jesus, you have a low view of the Paizo community.
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what's genderfluid? Ranma 1/2 , pretty sure the intent of making Ranma Saotome, was never about being genderfluid but he is willing to use his feminine side when its advantageous and has no qualms about it. Yeah he is still mostly heterosexual , due to the show being a harem anime but still...always thought Ranma school of anything goes martial arts, would make an excellent Brawler.
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If it wasn't for the fact Pathfinder altered changelings to being related to Hags from being related to Doppelgangers... I would have suggested that race for such an Iconic since they can literally be either or neither gender, possibly both mattering how you interpret the race. The race might still be used, but it isn't quite as fitting.
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Jesus, you have a low view of the Paizo community.Best plan if you want to spread awareness? Start doing it yourself. Make an agender character, play with them through an adventure path, and keep a campaign journal to post on the Paizo forums.
Don't wait and demand to be delivered by someone else later when you can go for it yourself now. Will it reach as many people? No. Will it be ridiculed? Yes.
I've a low view of people being exposed to something new.
IIRC it first came up in this thread with someone who didn't understand and didn't ask or Google, but just made assumptions based on the term "non binary".
The first suggestion to Google unfamiliar terms included in the next sentence the suggestion to ask.
Generally, in an online discussion it's better to Google first, if only to get some general idea what's being talked about, then ask if it's still not clear or if you're not sure which version the other poster is using. In person, asking first makes more sense.Making assumptions and preceding on them when you don't know what you're talking about is never a good choice.
Even if that was the case in this thread, it's not always so... And two wrongs don't make a right.
If someone is misinformed about something you wish they understood, then give them a quick, polite explanation about the topic and point them towards a trustworthy source of information.
If you're upset because someone is ignorant about a certain topic, but don't do anything to enlighten them... You aren't really helping. And you can't blame only them for their ignorance or misinformation.
Anybody outright ridiculing a Campaign Journal on here for having an agendered PC? Even if someone was that cartoonishly assholish (and we don't have many people like that), they would get scrubbed instantly.
We flame and troll about rogues and fighters, not about how weird a minority is. This ain't Youtube.
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I keep seeing this "If you don't know about it, google it!" atitude, as if that were a good substitute for open dialogue...
I saw some confusion about different gender identities, so here's what I posted:
As a nonbinary, person, I'm super down for more gender variation among the iconics, and the fantasy genre generally.
Also, I can see that there are a lot of misconceptions flying around this thread. First things first: I would encourage you to do some research on your own, even just some preliminary Googling, if you come across unfamiliar vocabulary. Next, I'll try to address some major points:
- Any and all labels for gender and sexuality are most useful when used as self-identifying tools. Having these labels is useful for people who don't feel that the more common designations are accurate to describe their identities. They are less useful when used to try and definitively say "X is Y."
- If you don't know what a word means, Google it! You can also ask others who use that identifying label; however, don't demand that someone educate you on the subject, because people with genders or sexualities you don't understand are not there to be your educational after-school special. Be polite, is what I'm saying.
- As a nonbinary person, what that means for me is that I don't identify as male or female, but somewhere along the spectrum. I'm not male, but my pronouns are he/him or they/them. I also prefer to present myself very femininely. I could tell you what I was "born as," but it would be incorrect, which is where you encounter terms that explain that someone was assigned their gender at birth based on their genitals (this is often written as something like amab for "assigned male at birth" or dfab for "designated female at birth"). Nonbinary is a fairly broad term, so not everyone who is nonbinary will experience or portray or relate to their gender in exactly the same way I do. Almost like how not all men and women are exactly the same just because they share gender labels
Quick outline of what I did in this post:
1) Provided a disclaimer/general information to explain that gender identity is most useful for self-description, and I would recommend rigidly defining others with these terms.2) Encouraging people to both do some internet research and ask people politely if you need or want further clarification.
3) Explained how I personally experience and identify with my trans identity.
Is there anything specifically you're confused about? If you have more general questions, or a lot of specific questions, I have found this wiki to be helpful.
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I've a low view of people being exposed to something new.Jesus, you have a low view of the Paizo community.Best plan if you want to spread awareness? Start doing it yourself. Make an agender character, play with them through an adventure path, and keep a campaign journal to post on the Paizo forums.
Don't wait and demand to be delivered by someone else later when you can go for it yourself now. Will it reach as many people? No. Will it be ridiculed? Yes.
I'm playing my agender kineticist in a PbP right now, and so far everyone has been lovely. I've had to correct some pronoun usage, but that's gone swimmingly as well.
I need to play them in meatspace again, though, and try to explicitly introduce their gender better.
One of my players played a genderfluid character without any trouble. Admittedly, the character died in the second encounter, but that wasn't deliberate. While s/he existed, the other players were plenty understanding (though one PC just thought she was a somewhat masculine female dwarf). :P
He also played an agendered PC in another PbP, but he ended up leaving, largely because the GM apparently couldn't be asked to remember the "they" pronoun.
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One of my players played a genderfluid character without any trouble. Admittedly, the character died in the second encounter, but that wasn't deliberate. While s/he existed, the other players were plenty understanding (though one PC just thought she was a somewhat masculine female dwarf). :P
He also played an agendered PC in another PbP, but he ended up leaving, largely because the GM apparently couldn't be asked to remember the "they" pronoun.
:c
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I'm not sure I'd call it a strawman argument either, if that's the kind of response that RDM42 has observed or received.
That said, it's hard to gauge your summary because it's very vague. Most of the time when I see people get seriously yelled at, it's because they've said something extremely hurtful or callous. And sometimes I see people make calm but assertive corrections of offensive language, followed by the offender taking it extremely personally or re-asserting their right to say hurtful things.
Anyway, as for this being a very rare phenomenon, it's probably a lot more likely than you think. Like the iconic Reiko, there are non-cis ninjas everywhere, lurking in their closets where it's safe, reporting back to the LGBTQ Agenda Headquarters. And I'm willing to bet that if more people were better educated on the subject, and weren't constantly told that male and female were the only genders, there would be a lot fewer cis people.
ugh
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It's actually not a strawman, but it is a bit of a fallacy. There's been a lot of False Dilemma on this thread.
"Either I don't include an agendered character or I'll have to include every single possibly identification."
"Either I don't include an agendered character or I'll portray agendered characters wrong—there's no way to win!"
The middle ground is obvious. Include agendered characters and don't portray them offensively. People are going to be offended no matter what, so you might as well do the right thing. It doesn't require any "research" beyond just going and asking someone, or Wikipedia-ing it. That'll be plenty for an off-hand inclusion, and if you want to go in-depth, you shouldn't mind researching more.
Actually, there is a subtle strawman in there. RDM42 is implying we want every work to contain non-cisgendered characters. Not every work has to, and I think we all realize that. A movie with five characters isn't intolerant for not including someone who's genderfluid. But these are iconics. They're meant to be as diverse as possible. And there's flippin' tons of them.
Shhh. Stop ruining my good points.
In seriousness, is it really realistic for every work to contain a non-cis character? They're a really tiny percentage. I could demand every work contain someone with autism, but that's not really realistic, either (and honestly, most depictions of us in the media are too honest—those characters are kinda annoying).
Now, if you mean you'd love for every work to include it, that'd be different. Are you stating this as a sort of "I wish every movie had John Oliver in it", or as a real opinion on what's necessary?
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Well, first of all, I'm not demanding anything. I just said I want it. :P
I honestly don't know what the percentage of non-cis people is among the general population, but I do feel like it's higher than people think it is, due to people being closeted in public or not knowing about any other option. Also, if you're going to include any non-cis people in a work, especially if they face similar discrimination and misinformation about them as in real life, there will probably be more. I'd say that it's not super off the mark to say that half of my close friends aren't cisgender AND heterosexual. One reason that token representation is ridiculous is that gender and sexuality minorities hang out with each other a lot. Like, why would there be "the gay friend" in a group of characters in a setting where they could go hang out with more queer folk?
As for "realistic," if we're talking about fictional works here, that's hardly relevant. Maybe nonbinary folks are as rare as dragons, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't include either in your fictional worlds.
Like, why would there be "the gay friend" in a group of characters in a setting where they could go hang out with more queer folk?
Because they like people for their personalities, and because they enjoy hanging out with them, not just because they share a sexual preference?
Just a thought. Crazy one, I know.
I didn't say you were demanding anything. Sorry if my comparison came off that way. :P
That said, if you want to tell a story in a fantasy world where nonbinary people are more common, that's cool. Not everyone writes worlds like that. My own story does feature a lot of nonstandardly-gendered/oriented characters, but that's more because it's a story about adventurers and in their backwards society adventuring is one of few decent career options for the uncloseted LGBT person.
Point being, I don't have a problem with stories that feature lots of minority characters, but you can't capture every minority. I'm honestly not that convinced non-cisgendered people are that large a demographic—like you said, you know a lot of LGBT people because, well, they tend to meet up with each other. I could buy maybe a few percentiles at most.
That said, I'm all for more representation. I'd totally read a fantasy story where they are much more common. I just don't think there's much of an obligation to include them, aside from a potential moral one to further the cause of diversity in the media. Tons of demographics get excluded. Even Community doesn't have any latino characters, and that show wields its own diversity as practically a running gag.
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My experience has been that no portrayal of a member of a marginalized group is going to please all members of that group, because just as with members of any group, their experience isn't monolithic.
So yeah, the first time you do, for example, a trans character (and probably quite a few times after that), you're going to get a lot of people saying, "This doesn't match my experience" or "I don't think this is accurate." Some of them may say it less politely. That's fine.
That's not a reason not to do it. (In fact, that's a reason to do it more, so you have more breadth of characters and character experiences.)
Moreover, even taking that into consideration, you probably didn't get some aspects of it right even for the particular experience you are representing. Especially when it's a group that's been vastly underrepresented, or treated as a punchline, and you don't have a lot of good fictional examples to look to, you're going to get parts of it wrong, and people are going to call you on it.
That's not a reason not to do it.
Portraying people, especially people that have historically been mistreated, marginalized, and/or underrepresented, isn't a binary where you get it 100% right or 100% wrong. It also isn't something where you've ever got it figured out and are "done." It's something that is continually evolving because people are complex and people's experiences are complex.
So you listen, you incorporate the feedback you get, you apologize if what you've done has stereotyped or hurt someone, and you keep working on doing it better.
And my experience is that generally, when you make a sincere apology (not an "I'm sorry you were offended" apology, but something based in listening and understanding), and talk about what you're going to do to do better next time, and then demonstrate that you're doing it, most people are pretty forgiving.
The idea that "if I put a gay person in my game, gay people might get offended and yell at me, so I'm not going to do it," sort of misses the point, to me. Hearing what you didn't do right is how you learn.
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Like, why would there be "the gay friend" in a group of characters in a setting where they could go hang out with more queer folk?Because they like people for their personalities, and because they enjoy hanging out with them, not just because they share a sexual preference?
Just a thought. Crazy one, I know.
Let me rephrase that. The "one gay friend in a group" doesn't make sense; why would there be "THE ONE gay friend" in a group, with that being the only queer character in a given fictional work, in a fictional setting (like a fictionalized Earth) where it's likely that they would hang out with more than just cis hetero people?
I thought my context was pretty clear, since I was talking about queer representation in fiction and not about friendships between actual meatspace people. Rest assured, Rynjin, your gender and sexuality have nothing to do with whether or not I would want to spend time with you.
I suspect you'll get a lot more flak from bigots
But I LIKE annoying them....
than from overly critical LGBTQ people. It'll be a lot less helpful too.
which are very hard if not impossible to tell non overly critical people
Like, why would there be "the gay friend" in a group of characters in a setting where they could go hang out with more queer folk?Because they like people for their personalities, and because they enjoy hanging out with them, not just because they share a sexual preference?
Just a thought. Crazy one, I know.
Let me rephrase that. The "one gay friend in a group" doesn't make sense; why would there be "THE ONE gay friend" in a group, with that being the only queer character in a given fictional work, in a fictional setting (like a fictionalized Earth) where it's likely that they would hang out with more than just cis hetero people?
I thought my context was pretty clear, since I was talking about queer representation in fiction and not about friendships between actual meatspace people. Rest assured, Rynjin, your gender and sexuality have nothing to do with whether or not I would want to spend time with you.
Generally speaking, fiction reflects life. There's changes here and there, but people don't really change.
The "one gay (or trans, or whatever)" friend happens IRL constantly. Why woudn't it be the same in fiction?
Must the entire group be queer, or none of them? Or can not one (or two) people be different?
I see no reason why a fictionalized Earth would be any different from a real Earth in that regard.
I once ran a gaming group for a lesbian, a bisexual, and a transgender guy. They were all friends, but the weird thing is none of them were out yet. They all came out at varying times after the group died. So, I have no idea what that means for this—whether there was just a subconscious feeling of unsureness they all shared, whether one of them coming out made it easier for the other two to work things out about themselves, or whether, in fact, nothing had anything to do with anything and I'm just making vaguely offensive assumptions. :P
Like, why would there be "the gay friend" in a group of characters in a setting where they could go hang out with more queer folk?Because they like people for their personalities, and because they enjoy hanging out with them, not just because they share a sexual preference?
Just a thought. Crazy one, I know.
Let me rephrase that. The "one gay friend in a group" doesn't make sense; why would there be "THE ONE gay friend" in a group, with that being the only queer character in a given fictional work, in a fictional setting (like a fictionalized Earth) where it's likely that they would hang out with more than just cis hetero people?
I thought my context was pretty clear, since I was talking about queer representation in fiction and not about friendships between actual meatspace people. Rest assured, Rynjin, your gender and sexuality have nothing to do with whether or not I would want to spend time with you.
Generally speaking, fiction reflects life. There's changes here and there, but people don't really change.
The "one gay (or trans, or whatever)" friend happens IRL constantly. Why woudn't it be the same in fiction?
Must the entire group be queer, or none of them? Or can not one (or two) people be different?
I see no reason why a fictionalized Earth would be any different from a real Earth in that regard.
Opposite of my experience, actually. We kinda tend to congregate together and a group that just has one non-straight person in it usually doesn't for long. Especially when you're in a situation where you can pick your social group (such as, say, when you're putting together a crew of adventurers).
I dunno, maybe my experience is atypical.
In any given circle of friends I've only ever had one queer one.
As an aside, is that REALLY the preferred term? It gets used a lot but it always makes me feel weird to say it. I can't really divorce it from its dictionary definition (strange, odd, etc.).
Well, adding a variety of character is easy when you have a large group of characters and/or when you can customize your hero. It's pretty freaking difficult when you have a specific protagonist in mind and want the story to be about them, though.
I do think that we could use more variety, but it's unrealistic to expect every piece of media to contain a member of every subgroup of the population.
And, sad as it is, devs often do fear to portray minorities out of fear that they will be accused of bigotry because the character has some moral failing or another... Even DA:I, as progressive as it is, didn't include the old Desire Demons out of fear of being called sexist. In order to have more representation of <any portion of human population ever> we gotta accept that some members of <said portion of population> are cowardly, violent, hateful, etc, etc...
What about Imshael? Or do you mean it didn't include older instances of the race?
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As an aside, is that REALLY the preferred term? It gets used a lot but it always makes me feel weird to say it. I can't really divorce it from its dictionary definition (strange, odd, etc.).
"Queer" started getting "reclaimed" as an identity in the '70s, especially in the context of queer studies as a branch of literary theory and criticism.
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I dunno, maybe my experience is atypical.
In any given circle of friends I've only ever had one queer one.
As an aside, is that REALLY the preferred term? It gets used a lot but it always makes me feel weird to say it. I can't really divorce it from its dictionary definition (strange, odd, etc.).
Some people use it as a reclamation of a slur, and this started happening especially during the AIDS epidemic, used by activist groups like ACT UP. This was at a time when there was very little understanding of the disease, and no one was even talking about it or saying the words AIDS or HIV, because it was mainly confined the population of the "undesirables." Queer became an identifying label; "we're here, we're queer, get used to it" was a lot less about being able to get married and a lot more about asserting that they wouldn't be ignored while they were literally dying just because they wouldn't assimilate to homophobic and transphobic norms.
The main takeaway here is 1) it's supposed to invoke the connotation of strangeness and oddness as an anti-assimilationist term, and 2) don't use it as a slur.