So.. I had this situation (as DM) last game night, and was wondering what you would have house-ruled, were you to be in the same situation.
3 of my players attacked an army of orc. (crazy, those things you can do at mid level against Cr 1/3 creatures...)
After some fighting, they got surrounded by a hundred of them. (litteraly, one orc on every heaxagon around them, no free space, aorund 4 or 5 row thick in every direction).
An orc caster then casted a fog cloud in the melee.
Then, the 3 players each drank potions of invisibilyty (happy the the new 20% concealement avoided them all AOO from drawing and drinking the potions).
Then everything went down to a crawl, as the players suggested that they just "pass through" the rows of orcs in a non-threatening way, in order not to break the invisibility effect. I was at a loss at to how to rule that, since that is not covered by either invis nor Acrobatics.
So...
My reasoning went like this :
If you want to push your way through, that equals to an overrun combat manoeuver. You still avoid all AOO (from the fog), but were you to fail the roll you would still break Invisibility and not move from your square (or hex, in that matter).
And then came acrobatics. Corebook goes like this :
" In addition, you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When moving in this way, you move at half speed. You can move at full speed by increasing the DC of the check by 10. [...]
Move through an enemy's space DC = 5 + opponent's Combat Maneuver Defense "
I ruled that, altough being invisible [g] should help [/g], it should not assure you of finding a way throught the rows of orcs without chance of failure, because you can still bump into one while trying to find a way through (or not find a way at all) even when your opponent can't see you (yet is still aware of your presence).
So, I decided that the roll would be Acrobatics vs CMD + 0 (effectively, giving the player a +5 bonus for being invisible) to move through an enemy square. The DC raises by +2 for every successive enemy you want to pass trough in the same round (from corebook).
Were you to fail the roll, you bump into an orc (which reveal your presence), but stay invisible.
So the players went like this :
The fighter decided to try his way at overrunning, instantly breaking the invisility he drank the round before (making the alchemist cry a little at those 300 gp), succedded at the manoeuver, and ran through 4 rows of orcs.
The paladin was wearing a shirt of freedom of movement. After some deliberation, I allowed the magic to allow him to move through the orcs unhindered (altough at half-speed). My reasoning was that, if freedom can allow you to pass through a web spell by moving between the strands (without getting stuck, altought still vs difficult terrain) it should do the same for creature trynig to stop you from passing through (since they cannot grab you or anything to impede your movement). There is room to argue about that, but since he was ALSO invisible, I allowed it.
The Slayer decided to try his way at acrobatics.
He rolled a 17, wich allowed him to move past the first orc, but the first cumulative +2 to the DC stopped his move as the second. I decided this was the outcome, an exception to the rule than you can never end your movement on the same space an an enemy. I decided this because it made no sense that the DC of the roll would start at (CMD + 8, for example, for squeezing through 4 orcs), if you are unaware of how many orcs you have to run through because of the fog. So he stopped his movement there.
Anyway, in the end he was grabbed, pinned down, and stabbed repetitively. But after having three great rolls in a row, he managed to free himself and run away.
So, I was wondering how you would have ruled such a situation, specially for the acrobatics part.
such a situation is kinda likely to happen again, with the strategy style of the group.
Thanks, (and sorry for the long post)
Gurior.
My view:
The fighter was resolved fine. I might have lowered the orcs CMD by 5 (Orc base dex of 11, making them almost helpless since they can't see), but that's hit or miss in my opinion. And considering you gave a +5 to the players, you essentially did.
I agree with the Paladin ruling. Freedom of Movement would allow him to move thru without their ability to really grab him or act, really. Any attempts to grab him (if they did see him) would fail.
On the slayer, I would think you did it wrong. Failing to move thru an enemy's space means you lose the move action (granted) and provoke an attack of opportunity. However, being unable to see the invisible Slayer, they would have been unable to use that attack of opportunity. Of course, if the orcs succeeded on their perception, that's another story. Might even be able to say that the fog cloud maybe gave the orcs a bonus, since invisible isn't perfectly invisible, but more like a Predator movie invisible.
All in all, the only one I'd have an issue with would be the Slayer, but if they succeeded on the perception, I think you played it perfect.
Yeah, my biggest issue is about the slayer too.
I did not roll for perception, because the orcs were aware of the presence of the characters ( they knew exactly where they were before they turned invisible, and were already surrounded).
They did not care about AOO either (neither as a DM, did I). Their sole purpose was to stop the players from escaping (or else their master would be VERY angry at them)
So essentially, the orcs wanted to do whatever they could to prevent the invisible slayer of running past them. Even if they couldn't see him, they acted as though he was still there (which they were right about).
Thinking about your answer, maybe I shouldn't have ruled that failing the acrobatics roll meant revealing your position. The orcs would have needed to find the invisible character (there is already rules in place for that that i'm fine with), and then grab him.
So, next time, I might rule that (giving the exact same situation)
You start with the total real DC to you acrobatics, which is CMD + 5 +2 per enemy after the first.
you either suceed at escaping, or cannot find a way out through 5 rows of orc in one go this time. This would eliminate the "ending your movement in an opponent square problem".
The intent roll is not of avoiding the AOO while doing so (altought, normally, it is), but to be able to pass through enemy squares.
If you fail, you do not move from your square, you can try again, but you do not reveal your location.
Meanwhile, the orcs will freneticly try to find your location on their round. (either by perception, or rules given by core book : Using a standard action to try a touch attack (with 50% ocnceal) againt 2 squares within your reach to try to figure out the location of something invisible). Can remember where i've seen this one, but pretty sure it goes like that.
What do you think ?
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Keep in mind also that invisible does NOT mean inaudible. If you're Xena-flipping through your enemy's square. (especially with that backpack full of GEAR!), you're not going to be silent.
I would not have broken invisibility for the acrobatics, as I don't think that would count as an aggressive action. The overrun is considered an attack action, I believe, so that would have broken invisibility.
The orcs trying to grapple the still invisible creature would have a 50% miss chance, and have used their CMB against the slayer's CMD. Considering the +/-5, it likely would have made it very difficult, but possible. Even if they succeed in the perception, that miss chance still exists. But I would have severely limited how many orcs would have participated, since the fog cloud and invisibility made vision so limited.
LazarX is right about invisible not meaning inaudible. I'd say there's definite room for GM discretion in exactly how much bonus being invisible gives. By core, it's listed as a +20 stealth, then another +20 for just standing still. Perception DC of a creature walking is 10 and the sound of battle is -10, you could probably start off somewhere in the middle or even lower for a tumbling adventurer. Maybe a 15 perception to figure which square the character stopped in? Failure in the acrobatics doesn't mean you bumped into the character, merely that you had to stop tumbling.
All in all, I think you handled it well. And if the players aren't unhappy, then all is well in the game.
Being invisible removes the DEX mod of the defender (probably not much for common orcs) and gives a +2 on attack rolls for the invisible guy - moving through their space is not actually an attack, but it is resolved by using the orcs' CMD so it's very close to an attack; I think that establishes that we can apply the +2 modifier to the acrobatics roll.
But even with all this, or even the +5 bonus you gave them, the DC would have been ridiculously high. It turns out that your math was way off.
First, they cannot end their turn in an orc's space so they have to move through about 5 spaces, right? You allowed them to end in an occupied space but technically that is not allowed by RAW.
The diagram would look like this:
O O O o o o o
O P O O O O O S
O O O o o o o
The PC at square P wants to move to empty square S, past all the orcs marked O and o including through the spaces of five of them. I'm assuming this is the shortest path to the nearest empty space (lots of other orcs that aren't shown) and there are no polearms or this math gets worse.
Orc CMD is 14. + 5 for moving through an enemy's space. +2 for each additional enemy avoided in 1 round. Since you'll be moving out of a threatened square of EVERY orc in my diagram, you have to avoid them all, every one of them, not just the ones you move through. So the PC gets +2 for each "other" orc, meaning +2 for all of them except the first one. That's 18 orcs, so +36. The final roll is an acrobatics check against CMD 55.
Furthermore, anyone who has a speed less than 60 must move at full speed which adds +10 to the DC. Hopefully they were hasted and not encumbered, right? But that might not be enough. For example, that paladin might have been wearing medium or heavy armor, and even hasted, he has a top speed of 40 unless he has other movement factors.
DC 65!
Those guys better have a LOT of acrobatics!
Admittedly, I could maybe ignore 8 of the orcs, indicated by the lower-case o, by assuming that they cannot threaten the PC due to soft-cover as he moves through other orcs' squares. That knocks it down to only needing a 49 on the acrobatics check. That depends on whether the GM counts "soft cover" as being the same as "cover" or not.
But 49 is still a hard skill check. Very hard, even impossible for most characters at any level. Even the 39 for anyone lightly encumbered with haste is going to be very difficult.
Now the rule says that if you don't succeed, you remain in the last unoccupied space, which means that if any PC failed, he says where he is. You allowed them to make some progress and end their turn partially moved. But even that slayer should have had a DC of 14 + 5 + 10 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 43 just to pass the first orc (or DC 33 if the slayer had a speed of 60 or higher so that he could move 30' at half speed).
Frankly, using the RAW, these guys would all have to be unarmored, unencumbered Hollywood ninjas to have any remote chance at all.
Side note: A loose but reasonable reading of the rules could mean that those +2 modifiers would only apply if the orcs could threaten the PC AND could make an AoO. Invisibility says that the orcs cannot make AoOs against the invisible PCs but it doesn't say they don't threaten the PCs as they move. Strict RAW seems to say that they do still threaten but can't do anything about it, which means they all contribute +2 to the DC. The looser reading says that they cannot make AoOs so they don't threaten so they don't need to be avoided, so no orc gives +2 to the DC. By that ruling, even the ones moved through won't give any +2 modifiers.
Given that, the best case is acrobatics vs. DC 19 for anyone with speed 60 or higher, or vs. DC 29 for anyone with less than 60 speed.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
LazarX wrote: Keep in mind also that invisible does NOT mean inaudible. If you're Xena-flipping through your enemy's square. (especially with that backpack full of GEAR!), you're not going to be silent. Especially if you're doing the ululating Xena yell.
Bradley Mickle wrote: I would not have broken invisibility for the acrobatics,
[...]
Maybe a 15 perception to figure which square the character stopped in? Failure in the acrobatics doesn't mean you bumped into the character, merely that you had to stop tumbling.
All in all, I think you handled it well. And if the players aren't unhappy, then all is well in the game.
I did not break the invis for bumping into an orc, in that case. But I did allow the orc to be made aware "something" just try to move past him, and know wich hex the character was in. As you said, i'm thinking of removing that part.
finaly , no the players aren't very happy with the way the whole thing was handled. I had to compromise between slowing the game to a crawl to discuss about the ruling, and finding a solution fast enough so that we can keep going (but where the players might disagreee with, because we did not went through the discussion long enough)
Anyway, they are happy with the outcome now, but are still arguing at the very moment with the way it was handled. Wich is why I can now take the week to think about it and ocme up with fair ruling for the next time this situation occurs.
DM_Blake wrote:
First, they cannot end their turn in an orc's space so they have to move through about 5 spaces, right? You allowed them to end in an occupied space but technically that is not allowed by RAW.
The diagram would look like this:
O O O o o o o
O P O O O O O S
O O O o o o o
Orc CMD is 14. + 5 for moving through an enemy's space. +2 for each additional enemy avoided in 1 round. Since you'll be moving out of a threatened square of EVERY orc in my diagram, you have to avoid them all, every one of them, not just the ones you move through.
I agree with some part.
The diagram is okay.
Since, being invisible, you can just run into enemy-threatened squares without AoO nor any acrobatics checks, I though it was fair ot say that the only Orcs contributing to the DC were the ones you have ot pass through.
If the same situation happens without invis (god, i hope it dosen't come to that), it might be diffent.
So the last part of your post appears fine to me, with a dc in the range of 20-30.
And the slayer DID have a speed of 60 ft at the time, but I forgot about it.
As a side note, the slayer a an acrobatics skill in the range of +10, by that'S from memory.
I would simply resolve it as written, using Acrobatics, except that the defenders don't get their dexterity to CMD, which makes it a lot easier to sneak by.
Hmmmm, seems to me that either:
1. They DO threaten and must be avoided because invisibility only denies the AoO without actually making them stop threatening (strict RAW reading), so every orc adds +2.
or
2. They do NOT threaten and need not be avoided because inability to make an AoO implies that they don't threaten (looser interpretation), so none of the orcs add +2.
But saying that some orcs don't threaten (no +2) and some orcs do threaten (apply +2) seems self-contradicting.
Doing it your way would have meant a DC of 27: 14 + 5 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2. A 20% chance of success.
Incidentally, why didn't "mid-level" characters just fly away? Sure, they're all martials, but nobody invested any air superiority?
Okay. So, in short, I'm thiking of resolving it this way in the future :
Given the same situation (invisible, surrounded), you can choose ot make an attemp at acrobatics. The DC is CMD (without dex, although it dosen't make a difference for orcs), +5 for moving throughs squares, +2 for ennemies after the first.
you must go through the whole crowd in one go (or nearest empty space)
you get a +2 on the acrobatics roll for being invisible ( on top of the Dex-less CMD).
If your speed does not allow you to reach an empty space by the end of your movement (considering you try at half-speed to avoid the -10 penalty), you must try the roll at full speed (with -10) in order to be able to reach an empty space. If still no space is within that distance, you cannot escape. You must try your luck at the overrun combat manoeuver, wich allows you to move double you speed (as part of a charge), or fight.
If your roll fail, you do not move from your spot, but do not reveal your presence. You simply do not manage to find an opening to squeeze through, and fail your attempt.
Orc can still try to detect you with perception or touch attacks.
finaly, if you happen to Not be invisible, the DC is the same for running through the same number of orcs, but you will provoke a crazy number of AoO form adjacent orc (subject ot DM discretion, was discussed in posts above because of soft cover).
you can still try to avoid all AoO by raising the dc accordinly, but it gets so imppossibly difficult that I would allow to just ignore the orcs adjacent to your path and focus in running through the orcs in your way.
DM_Blake wrote: Hmmmm, seems to me that either:
1. They DO threaten and must be avoided because invisibility only denies the AoO without actually making them stop threatening (strict RAW reading), so every orc adds +2.
or
2. They do NOT threaten and need not be avoided because inability to make an AoO implies that they don't threaten (looser interpretation), so none of the orcs add +2.
But saying that some orcs don't threaten (no +2) and some orcs do threaten (apply +2) seems self-contradicting.
Doing it your way would have meant a DC of 27: 14 + 5 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2. A 20% chance of success.
Incidentally, why didn't "mid-level" characters just fly away? Sure, they're all martials, but nobody invested any air superiority?
You are right, and I prefer interpretation #2. The whole thing is because the player is using acrobatics because that's the mechanic that allows you to move through enemy square. We did not care for AoO, although acrobatics does include both avoiding AoO and moving through enemies space in a single skill (and roll)
For the fly part, that particular character dosen't, no. I said mid-level, by the party is actuall Level 7 / MR 1. (it's really impressive how the first mythic level can transform the power level of the group a whole 1 or 2 levels higher)
for the contradiction, i'm using as comparison a situation where there would be 2 rows of orcs, with a free straight line in between.
O O O O O O
P . . . . . . S
O O O O O O
P being invisible, he could run all the way to S without any AoO nor acrobatics checks, even were the orc aware of his presence. (altought they could still hack blindly at the square on their side and hope to hit something)
So thaT's why I only consider the orcs he is trying to pass trough as being threathening (opposing the task)
One question I have is can you overrun more than one creature? I've always seen it as "an opponent". I've seen only one feat that actually talks about overrunning multiple foes. "Mounted Onslaught" from Cities of Golarion specifies the following:
"Benefit: On your turn you may overrun more than one creature. Each overrun combat maneuver check beyond the first has a cumulative –5 penalty. If you fail to overrun a target, your movement ends. Your mount may only make a single hoof attack against one target that is knocked prone by your overrun (not one per prone opponent)."
This makes me believe that you can't overrun multiple creatures.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
I'm not sure I'd the rules absolutely require an acrobatics roll for something like this. The PCs are invisible and so won't provoke an AoO, period, and the acrobatics roll is to avoid an AoO. So no matter what people think the rules are saying, we're well into GM adjudication and the right answer is the one that works best for you, your players, and the pacing of the game.
First - all turning invisible and trying to escape is a good plan, and may be a necessary one to prevent a TPK. My inclination is to not make it too hard to accomplish since they're already stacking the deck in their favor by turning invisible.
Second - The orcs won't be able to see and target them with AoO as long as they're invisible. But the PCs will want to avoid giving away their exact position or they'll likely just be in the orc soup again once the orcs adjust. So avoiding contact and avoiding excess noise are both important.
I'd have them make stealth rolls to determine how well their general movement is going to give them away to the orcs' perceptions. This will be important more for the follow-up rounds and how the orcs will adjust.
Then I'd have them roll acrobatics just to avoid making contact with wary orcs milling about their combat spaces, but I would cut the DC down from the CMD that normally sets the DC. The situations are different with the orcs significantly hampered relative to the normal case. Off hand, using the Acrobatics skill as a model, what's the difference between moving through an opponent's square and past them? It's 5. I'd set the base DC at 5 and then modify it by how fast they're moving. I wouldn't add +2 for every orc whose threatened spaces they move through. Most of those can't target them and are irrelevant and shouldn't add to the DC. I'd only add for each actual orc space they move through.
As far as failing, I'd take a look at how close they got to the DC. If they didn't even make the DC I set without any +2s for additional orcs, I'd say they bumped into the first one and halt movement. If they failed at some point but would have passed by just one, I'd prorate how far they got into the mass based on how close they got to the final and then I'd just displace the orcs they passed to carve out a space for them to start in for their next move action. Every orc in reach will almost certainly attack that space (with the 50% miss) but, as long as the PC keeps his head and doesn't strike back, he can try again next round, hopefully with a shorter path to escape.
@ Bill Dunn
you bring an interresting point, from a playstyle perpective, that could acutally work.
I was stuck on the acrobatics manoeuver, because that was the only thing I could think of (and find) in the rules for moving through opponents squares. It just happens that Acrobatics is primarily used to avoid AoO. The Dc is just higher to move through an opponent.
Indeed, the situation where the good guy is hiding in an angry crowd (angry about this very guy) yet still escape, is quite iconic. I'm thinking of Bilbo against the swarm of goblins when the dwarf get captured, kindof thing.
Provided the Slayer (in this situation) can create either a distraction, concealement (smoke pellet, invisibility, fog) or has Hide in plain sight, I would allow him to hide in the crowd and crawl slowly outside it, making stealth check (with appropriate bonus, such from invis) to not get spotted in his way there.
I very much like this approcah, than kyou for the idea. It will also prove much more fun and easy to apply than previous mechanics discussed in the post, that i would fall upon only if surrounded character cannot hide (because he is actively being watched, and has none of the tools enumerated above)
In this situation I would have allowed for them to roll stealth checks. If they failed that then its time for acrobatic checks, but the orcs would lose dex of course. If they fail that, instead of pushing them back to the middle(open space) of the army I would have them share the space with an orc, but they would be squeezing, and it would give their location away, but being invisible they would still get 50% concealment. On their next turn they could try again.
There really are no rules for this, so this is the best I could come up with.
Yeah, I'm with Bill Dunn and wraithstrike on this.
The combat rules aren't well equipped to deal with this type of situation and I'd probably come up with some GM fiat rules on the fly.
Perhaps something like this (this is just a suggestion, and not rules based):
1) Freeze the "combat"
2) Have each player make a stealth check. (with all appropriate modifiers, including invis' +20)
The DC they hit determines how many orcs along the way notice their passing and get to try and hit or grab them (despite their invisibility)
DC 10: Way too noticeable; unable to move. 4 orcs attack with their axes, 2 try to grapple
DC 15: Managed to move 5'. 4 orcs attack, 2 try to grapple
DC 20: Moved 1/4 speed. 4 orcs attack, 2 try to grapple
DC 25: Moved 1/4 speed. 2 orcs attack, 1 tries to grapple
DC 30: Moved 1/2 speed. 2 orcs attack, 1 tries to grapple
DC 35: Moved 1/2 speed. 1 orc attacks
DC 40: Moved speed. 1 orc attacks
DC 45+: Moved speed and completely avoided notice
I would give each of the above attacks a 50% chance to miss due to invis.
I would also allow a player with acrobatics to additionally make the appropriate tumble check(s) to avoid each attack.
3) After each player has moved, allow anyone who hasn't been grabbed a chance to assist someone who has been hit or grappled. Let them find creative ways to use spells, skills, and abilities to allow them to free their companions without breaking stealth. Or failing that, let them use a reposition combat maneuver to "yank" their ally out of the orc's clutches.
4) Return to step 2 until they have escaped to the edge of the orc throng. If any of the characters breaks their invisible escape maneuvering, put those characters back into combat rounds and proceed back into combat for them.
I think if they make a double-move, they can go farther for the same check. I.e. go 30' in the round at half speed (and pass 5 orcs) rather than needing to incur the +10 penalty for moving full speed.
/cevah
Not much to add, but this:
Quote: Then, the 3 players each drank potions of invisibilyty (happy the the new 20% concealement avoided them all AOO from drawing and drinking the potions). I don't think is correct. Partial cover protects you from AoOs, not partial concealment. You need total concealment to avoid AoOs when you provoke.
Recent threads in Rules Questions
|
