So, I'm grappling, say, a squid. Let's ignore the obvious "bad idea" and focus on this: On the squid's turn, he chooses to attack me instead of trying to break free. He scores several hits.
So the squid has grab. What happens now? Do you both become equally screwed?
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There’s no RAW explanation for how to handle this. I guess it comes down to if you want to make grab a more powerful ability.
As I see it there’s three options:
A) You roll a grapple check as normal. If the squid beats the target’s CMD both creatures are both grappler and grapplee now.
B) You roll a grapple check as normal. If the squid beats the target’s CMD it’s effectively reversed the grapple and is now the grappler.
C) Grab’s ignored in this scenario.
I don’t especially like A. Things get complicated if the two roles (grappler and grapplee) are no longer mutually exclusive.
B seems like a significant power boost for grab. Ignoring the grapple in favor of a full attack is already a big action advantage. Letting the squid reverse grapples for free is just adding insult to injury.
C seems like it takes some of the scary-factor away from the squid but isn’t the squid already getting what it wants by being grappled (an opponent committing to melee with it)? Barring creatures with abilities that can only be used while acting as the grappler, this doesn’t seem like a major loss of effectiveness for the squid.
B seems like a significant power boost for grab. Ignoring the grapple in favor of a full attack is already a big action advantage. Letting the squid reverse grapples for free is just adding insult to injury.
It's not exactly "for free"—beating your opponent's CMD is already what you have to do to gain control. It does seem like the most realistic option, but that's hardly valid criteria, so it's not too clear to me.
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The 'free' cost was a reference to the actions required.
Presumably this squid wrangler walked up and spent a standard action to start a grapple (doing no damage). The squid being able to full attack and reverse the grapple makes some sad action economy even sadder.
Is it a reasonable interpretation? Certainly. But that poor squid wrangler already has it rough.
I agree that the squid can't grapple while grappled. He would have to break the grapple first.
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Not that it's entirely pertinent to the discussion, but you're forgetting that the squid only gets to use one weapon for his full attack. And he's only got natural weapons so that's only one attack for his "full attack".
Grapple was nerfed a few years back. A grappled creature fights at near 100% effectiveness.
Question: What kind of attacks can you make while you are being grappled? Specifically, if I'm being grappled, can I forgo escaping the grapple to make a full-attack action with a natural, unarmed attack, or attack with light weapon, getting any and all iterative attacks if possible with that action?
Yes. Furthermore, you don't even have to make these attacks against the creature grappling you. While do suffer the normal –2 penalties on attack rolls while grappled, and you are limited in the types of attacks you can make, you gain all the normal attack rolls such an action would normally give you against any creature within your reach.
If you're the one grappling the creature, you can also make your normal attacks, but realize that this ends the grapple. Most of the time you're better off selecting the grapple option that allows you to deal damage to your target as a single unarmed attack, natural attack, or an attack with a light weapon. While you do not get more damage potential based on any iterative attacks, you do not have to make an attack roll. The damage is automatic with the successful grapple check. And let's face it; if you're performing this maneuver, chances are you're pretty good at it.
Lastly, while it should go without saying, keep in mind that attacks of opportunity are not possible while you are grappled, unless you have some feat or other effect that specifically allows them in that condition.
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Not that it's entirely pertinent to the discussion, but you're forgetting that the squid only gets to use one weapon for his full attack. And he's only got natural weapons so that's only one attack for his "full attack".Grapple was nerfed a few years back. A grappled creature fights at near 100% effectiveness.
Question: What kind of attacks can you make while you are being grappled? Specifically, if I'm being grappled, can I forgo escaping the grapple to make a full-attack action with a natural, unarmed attack, or attack with light weapon, getting any and all iterative attacks if possible with that action?
Yes. Furthermore, you don't even have to make these attacks against the creature grappling you. While do suffer the normal –2 penalties on attack rolls while grappled, and you are limited in the types of attacks you can make, you gain all the normal attack rolls such an action would normally give you against any creature within your reach.
If you're the one grappling the creature, you can also make your normal attacks, but realize that this ends the grapple. Most of the time you're better off selecting the grapple option that allows you to deal damage to your target as a single unarmed attack, natural attack, or an attack with a light weapon. While you do not get more damage potential based on any iterative attacks, you do not have to make an attack roll. The damage is automatic with the successful grapple check. And let's face it; if you're performing this maneuver, chances are you're pretty good at it.
Lastly, while it should go without saying, keep in mind that attacks of opportunity are not possible while you are grappled, unless you have some feat or other effect that specifically allows them in that condition.
That doesn't contradict anything I said. If anything, your response implies you don't understand what it's saying.
Read it again. You get to full attack "with a natural, unarmed attack, or attack with light weapon, getting any and all iterative attacks if possible with that action." Not any or all. Just "a".
And natural attacks don't have iterative attacks. So if you've been grappled, and you only have natural attacks, it doesn't matter if you have 1 or 20 different natural attacks, you can only attack with a single one of them and only once.
I'd generally say the squid gets all but one attack (the rules imply a grapple takes away use of one "arm"). I think I'll agree that there's no Grab shenanigans, though.
The lesson is, it's okay to grapple creatures with Grab, but still don't grapple the squid.