| 20 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
According to the SRD, sitting or kneeling gives +2 AC against ranged attacks and -2 AC against melee attacks. What action is it to sit, kneel, or stand up from sitting or kneeling?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Drop to the Floor is a free action. Dropping halfway can't cost more.
Standing up is a move action. Standing from halfway should reasonably be same.
As it is never listed anywhere, my groups always played as a free action to stand from sitting. We just guessed. We always felt it should be a lot less than standing from prone.
I think we decided this before swift actions existed. Maybe a swift action would be a good action economy use. If so, it would have to be one that could be converted to a move action.
Reasonable assumptions, to be sure. But... is this really something that's never addressed in the rules? Wow.
+2 AC is a huge bonus for a ranged attacker or a caster. There should be an official answer on this.
According to the SRD, sitting or kneeling gives +2 AC against ranged attacks and -2 AC against melee attacks. What action is it to sit, kneel, or stand up from sitting or kneeling?All of those are move actions. Falling prone, which isn't one of the ones you asked about, is a free action, but getting up from prone is a move action that provokes.
Is there a page number you can reference for this? I don't see it anywhere in the rules.
I agree that it sounds reasonable for sitting or kneeling, but these are not the same as prone, and the rules don't mention sitting or kneeling as actions, merely as armor class bonuses or penalties.
Since none are specified, I believe all would default to move action. It is actually easier to just drop to prone than it is to sit down or kneel.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Dropping to prone has this assisting feature known as gravity.It is actually easier to just drop to prone than it is to sit down or kneel.What.
In my universe, those who sit or kneel are headed in the same direction as those who go all the way to the ground. What direction do they move in LazarX-world?
I think spending 5ft of your movement to kneel up or down should be enough. It's not like you're getting something for free, it's a trade off.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think there are a lot of valid things it could be, but I am pretty sure that there is nothing RAW.
I play enough PFS with a wide enough assortment of GMs that it just bothers me immensely when an oversight like this exists in the rules. There should be a RAW answer here but it's completely ignored.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I play enough PFS with a wide enough assortment of GMs that it just bothers me immensely when an oversight like this exists in the rules. There should be a RAW answer here but it's completely ignored.And how many battles did you start from a kneeling position or getting up from a chair lately? RAW can't cover everything. The planet isn't big enough for the book that would be requird. So the idea is to cover what's most likely to be needed.
If it wasn't a listed option, I would agree with you, but if they thought enough to give it bonuses, they should have assigned an action economy.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
And I guess in your universe they all fall into a kneeling position? Do they drop to their chairs from a 10 foot height? We can go at this all day, but it wouldn't be productive, so I'll concede your victory right now.In my universe, those who sit or kneel are headed in the same direction as those who go all the way to the ground. What direction do they move in LazarX-world?Dropping to prone has this assisting feature known as gravity.It is actually easier to just drop to prone than it is to sit down or kneel.What.
Huh? When did we start talking about falling?
You said that it was easier to go from standing up to lying down than to go from standing up to kneeling, because gravity would help a person moving to a lying-down position but wouldn't help someone moving to a kneeling position.
Then suddenly you're talking about being 10ft in the air? Are we even having the same discussion? Or did you not read what you were trying to reply to?
It is actually easier to just drop to prone than it is to sit down or kneel.What.
It's significantly easier. But as LazarX notes, we can argue about this all day and not get anywhere with it.
So all I will say is kneeling or sitting down require a little focus and control. Going prone is flinging yourself at the ground. Trying to go to a kneeling position without that control would end up with you belly to the floor.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
...What exactly are you picturing as "kneeling"? I wonder if maybe, where I'm picturing this guy, you're picturing something more like sitting on your feet with both knees in front of you.
This debate has existed for about 15 years now. 3.0 had the kneeling bonuses in the combat table and did not have the actions for it. Then 3.5, now Pathfinder. Same combat modifiers, same lack of actions.
However, I seem to recall people saying that d20 MODERN had the actions in that system. IIRC, it was a free action to sit or kneel and a move action that DOES NOT provoke to rise from kneeling or sitting. I've played it that way since I heard that.
But I admit, I've never vetted the info and don't own the system so I won't be vetting it now either.
I can't see the picture you posted at work, but I'm guessing it's squating and not kneeling. Or perhaps kneeling on only 1 knee.
Either way requires more effort to not end up on your stomach.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
I can't see the picture you posted at work, but I'm guessing it's squating and not kneeling. Or perhaps kneeling on only 1 knee.
Either way requires more effort to not end up on your stomach.
It's one knee on the ground and one knee out in front (I *think* that's the second thing you listed). And if you're going to assert that moving from a standing* position to that position is slower/harder than moving lying down on the ground, then I hope you have some kind of super-awesome wrestling technique for getting to a prone position faster than I'm currently able to envision.
*And by "standing" I mean standing in a ready-to-move, feet-apart stance like someone would actually be standing in during a combat situation where you're measuring actions, not standing at attention or some other parallel-footed stance that people don't stand in when they're not flat-footed.
... kneeling on only 1 knee.
That's the one.
I know from my police training it is about 100% easier, and faster, to go to kneeling, than it is to going prone. This is especially true with a weapon out.
It is about 400% faster to stand from kneeling than from prone.
Yes, the picture shows taking a single knee, which is how we were trained to kneel.
I can't see the picture you posted at work, but I'm guessing it's squating and not kneeling. Or perhaps kneeling on only 1 knee.
Either way requires more effort to not end up on your stomach.
It's one knee on the ground and one knee out in front (I *think* that's the second thing you listed). And if you're going to assert that moving from a standing* position to that position is slower/harder than moving lying down on the ground, then I'm afraid I've lost a bit of respect for you.
*And by "standing" I mean standing in a ready-to-move, feet-apart stance like someone would actually be standing in during a combat situation where you're measuring actions, not standing at attention or some other parallel-footed stance that people don't stand in when they're not flat-footed.
You would loose respect for me because I have a difference of opinion on something that does not have game rules? Or because we have different experiences in life that lead to alternative conclusions?
As someone who wrestled it is far easier for me to drop prone than drop to a knee. It's fine for you to disagree. I don't think less of you because we disagree here. But if you really think less of me because I don't agree with you, then I will think less of you for that.
I'd suggest dropping into a kneel is a free action, whereas standing up from one is a move action which provokes.
As for an official answer...if one exists, I'm not aware of it.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
@Claxon—I've edited my post to allow for the only possibility I can think of where you'd actually be right. And I'd never think less of someone for having a different opinion, though I have been known to lose respect for someone when they try to label possible factual wrongness as a difference of opinion. I'll hold off on that for now though, based on your past reputation of general reasonableness.
So on my drive home, I think I may have come up with why we are having a difference of opinion.
I envision dropping prone as moving your front stabilizing front behind you and allowing the weight of you upper body to pull you down. You essentially just fall down.
Where as, I believe you are envision laying down prone. Certainly laying down prone would be slower than going to a knee.
But I'm not envisioning laying down.
And I try to be agreeable Jiggy, and generally respect you and agree with most of what you say. I can't say all because I don't have a good enough memory to make such a large claim, but I will say I can't think of something where we have vehemently disagreed.
Anyways, laying down prone definitely slower than taking a knee.
Dropping prone is however different in my mind than laying down prone.
Also please understand, I don't think getting to a knee is "slow", my statement of it being a move action is because it's not listed as an action with an associated time. And in general, things that aren't listed default to move.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This interests me, as an extra +2 to AC vs ranged could be quite handy for my spellcasting characters.
I haven't got anything more to add to the conversation beyond my military training, and getting into & out of a kneeling position with a rifle was significantly easier than getting into & out of prone.
My vote would be Move action which does not provoke for standing from kneeling. You have much more control of your immediate environment and are more able to move in a defensive/tactical manner coming out of a kneeling position.
|
It is actually easier to just drop to prone than it is to sit down or kneel.What.
Completely agree.
If I knelt at the same speed I dropped to prone, I would wreck my knees. (And armor doesn't help cause it isn't padded in the right way.)
Dropping to prone can be done at speed, because the shock of falling can be absorbed by the arms.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
And in general, things that aren't listed default to move.
Where are you getting this idea?
Re: "dropping prone" vs "laying down prone", I'm not quite sure what you mean for the difference between these, but I was picturing a soldier with a rifle dropping to a prone position from which he could then shoot (snipe?) at people.
The end position is the same for both dropping prone or laying prone. But laying prone means you get on one knee and slowly lay yourself down carefully. Dropping prone is basically just falling forward on your arms, no carefully lower yourself.
I tried looking for videos on youtube, but I can't find one to represent what I mean.
As for the general defaulting to move, I honestly can't remember where I got the idea from. It is entirely possible that I'm remembering incorrectly.
How about if we say kneeling and standing up from kneeling would be a free action for a young character, swift for an adult character, move action for a middle-aged character, standard for an old character, and full-round action for a venerable character? Everyone happy? =]
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Swift actions, IMO, is not the right action type. Swift actions have a niche for what they are used for - quickened spells, magus, gunslingers, swashbucklers, paladin loh, etc - all unique abilities for certain classes or from specific feats and the like. I'm not aware of any rules for swift actions being used that a character of any class or race could perform.
It's either move actions or free actions. Personally I believe it should be free to sit/kneel, but move to stand for either - with neither provoking.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Someone sliding head first on a stone floor is NOTHING like someone sliding on a MLB diamond that is perfectly groomed, complete with semi-loose dirt on top.
Compare apples to apples.
When I LARPed with the thinnest of cosmetic armor covering my shins and knees, I would drop to TWO knees while running, slide under tree branches or other low objects in the woods, and pop back up without loosing momentum. I also had a 3' foam sword and a 2' x 3' shield.
By keeping my legs under me, I could get up in half a second. When dropping prone, it almost always involved turning over and "flipping" up or letting go of weapons to push up. It was significantly harder with a shield.
|
|
I don't see why it would be any different to dropping prone/standing in terms of actions, for simplicity's sake.
It might not provoke to stand from kneeling, but I doubt it - you're still going to have serious difficulty darting out of the way if someone takes a swing at you while you're standing from kneeling. It's not impossible, though, and a fair compromise if you're leaning towards leniency.
If one is willing to risk a bruise, or is trained in how to fall in a manner that will not do injury they can fall prone in the same time it would take to kneel. However, unless trained in how to absurd the impact, control the fall to minimize it, or both, the recovery time from falling prone would be greater then bruising your knee/s from falling into a kneeling position.
I speak from specialized training I have revived in stage falls, and floor routines for dancing.
According to the SRD, sitting or kneeling gives +2 AC against ranged attacks and -2 AC against melee attacks. What action is it to sit, kneel, or stand up from sitting or kneeling?
There is no rule for it. I have always given kneeling a plus 2 to AC and I still made it a move action to stand that did not provoke but I would not allow longbows of any type to be fired while kneeling.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This debate has existed for about 15 years now. 3.0 had the kneeling bonuses in the combat table and did not have the actions for it. Then 3.5, now Pathfinder. Same combat modifiers, same lack of actions.
However, I seem to recall people saying that d20 MODERN had the actions in that system. IIRC, it was a free action to sit or kneel and a move action that DOES NOT provoke to rise from kneeling or sitting. I've played it that way since I heard that.
But I admit, I've never vetted the info and don't own the system so I won't be vetting it now either.
To the best of my knowledge, D20 Modern doesn't have any commentary about taking a knee or going prone, but notes that rising is a move action and provokes an attack of opportunity in the text. The Daredevil advanced class has a class feature that lets them "nip up" as a free action.
We've always house ruled taking a knee or going prone to be free actions that don't provoke, rising from the prone is a move action that provokes, rising from a knee takes up five feet of movement during a move action, (or is a move action if you don't go anywhere after standing) and also provokes. Being on a knee allows melee opponents to get the advantage of being on higher ground.
Kneeling as a free and standing as a non-provoking-move does appeal to me. It's probably what I'll go with in the absence of an official rule. I'd still like to see them throw up a ruling though.