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Level 1 - pick Combat Expertise (any class)
Level 2 - Lore Warden 1 - bonus feat - Improved Trip
Level 3 - Lore Warden 2 - Get Combat Expertise for free from archetype
At this point, I want to retrain my level 1 feat. Can I do that without retraining my level 2 feat first? As in, as soon as I lose the level 1 feat, does my class ability kick in, did I have it all along, or do I never get it when I hit my third level because I already had it because of level 1?
Yes, as far as I can tell. I do not think it checks to see the order you gained it, just that you still have it.
I imagine this would be open to table variance.
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IMO, no.
The old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability.
While you would normally get CE for free at 2nd in Lore Warden, since you already have it, you don't gain it again. And you have already used your 1st level feat as a prerequisite for a feat you have chosen so you can't retrain out of it.
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IMO, no.
The old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability.While you would normally get CE for free at 2nd in Lore Warden, since you already have it, you don't gain it again. And you have already used your 1st level feat as a prerequisite for a feat you have chosen so you can't retrain out of it.
Is there anything that specifically says you don't gain it again?
If the feat doesn't have the text:
Special: Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, it applies to a new alignment subtype. Whenever you channel energy, you must choose which type to effect.
then you can not take the feat more than once.
You don't "gain it multiple times" you have it two different ways. Any feat that you can "gain multiple times" has a numeric component that may stack.
You do not "fail" to gain a feat just because a previous class already had it. But if they do not stack, it usually does not matter.
I can see why a GM might disallow it, but I do not see this example as a rules reason to do so.
You don't "gain it multiple times" you have it two different ways. Any feat that you can "gain multiple times" has a numeric component that may stack.
You do not "fail" to gain a feat just because a previous class already had it. But if they do not stack, it usually does not matter.
I can see why a GM might disallow it, but I do not see this example as a rules reason to do so.
OK...
So you gain it at 1st level by taking the feat.
Then you gain it at 3rd level by class bonus feat.
How is that not gaining it multiple times?
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You don't "gain it multiple times" you have it two different ways. Any feat that you can "gain multiple times" has a numeric component that may stack.
You do not "fail" to gain a feat just because a previous class already had it. But if they do not stack, it usually does not matter.
I can see why a GM might disallow it, but I do not see this example as a rules reason to do so.
OK...
So you gain it at 1st level by taking the feat.
Then you gain it at 3rd level by class bonus feat.
How is that not gaining it multiple times?
Just to be clear, it's not a "class bonus feat" it's simply granted by the class. No choices are being made. I'd call a "class bonus feat" something like the fighter or warpriest Bonus Feat, or hunter's Teamwork Feat.
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Logic, fairness and common sense say it's legal. The moment you'd "lose" Combat Expertise as a 1st level feat, you get it as the Archetype freebie. So you're never without the prerequisite.
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Imagine this:
Level 1: Monk
Level 2: Brawler
Level 3: Brawler
Level 3: Retrain Monk to Fighter.
There is no way you just lost Flurry of Blows and Improved Unarmed Combat.
Based on your ruling, you would. You might make a claim the FOB is not a feat and follows different rules, but you couldn't make that argument for IUC.
The same goes for:
Level 1: Fighter
Level 2: Paladin
Level 3: Monk
Level 3: Retrain Fighter to Paladin
There is no way you just lost Martial Weapon Proficiency with all weapons, Light Armor Proficiency, Medium Armor Proficiency, Heavy Armor Proficiency, and Shield Proficiency.
Just to be clear, it's not a "class bonus feat" it's simply granted by the class. No choices are being made. I'd call a "class bonus feat" something like the fighter or warpriest Bonus Feat, or hunter's Teamwork Feat.You don't "gain it multiple times" you have it two different ways. Any feat that you can "gain multiple times" has a numeric component that may stack.
You do not "fail" to gain a feat just because a previous class already had it. But if they do not stack, it usually does not matter.
I can see why a GM might disallow it, but I do not see this example as a rules reason to do so.
OK...
So you gain it at 1st level by taking the feat.
Then you gain it at 3rd level by class bonus feat.
How is that not gaining it multiple times?
Expertise (Ex): At 2nd level, a lore warden gains Combat
Expertise as a bonus feat, even if he would not normally
qualify for this feat. This ability replaces bravery 1.
It's specifically called a bonus feat, and is specially stated as being gained...
So, either you're gaining Combat Expertise a 2nd time (which is contrary to the feats rules) or you're not, and you only have Combat Expertise once so you don't have anything to retrain away....
Imagine this:
Level 1: Monk
Level 2: Brawler
Level 3: Brawler
Level 3: Retrain Monk to Fighter.There is no way you just lost Flurry of Blows and Improved Unarmed Combat.
Based on your ruling, you would. You might make a claim the FOB is not a feat and follows different rules, but you couldn't make that argument for IUC.
And this is one of the quirks you get with multiclassing and retraining rules. A brawler without IUS...odd, but yes that is what would happen...unless you retrained Monk to Brawler or something else that gained IUS as a bonus feat for exactly the same reason.
The same goes for:Level 1: Fighter
Level 2: Paladin
Level 3: Monk
Level 3: Retrain Fighter to PaladinThere is no way you just lost Martial Weapon Proficiency with all weapons, Light Armor Proficiency, Medium Armor Proficiency, Heavy Armor Proficiency, and Shield Proficiency.
This, not so much. It's been FAQ'd that starting proficiencies are NOT bonus feats and can not be retrained into other feats, as such if they're gained as base proficiencies they are not treated as feats.
Just to be clear, it's not a "class bonus feat" it's simply granted by the class. No choices are being made. I'd call a "class bonus feat" something like the fighter or warpriest Bonus Feat, or hunter's Teamwork Feat.You don't "gain it multiple times" you have it two different ways. Any feat that you can "gain multiple times" has a numeric component that may stack.
You do not "fail" to gain a feat just because a previous class already had it. But if they do not stack, it usually does not matter.
I can see why a GM might disallow it, but I do not see this example as a rules reason to do so.
OK...
So you gain it at 1st level by taking the feat.
Then you gain it at 3rd level by class bonus feat.
How is that not gaining it multiple times?
Expertise (Ex): At 2nd level, a lore warden gains Combat
Expertise as a bonus feat, even if he would not normally
qualify for this feat. This ability replaces bravery 1.It's specifically called a bonus feat, and is specially stated as being gained...
So, either you're gaining Combat Expertise a 2nd time (which is contrary to the feats rules) or you're not, and you only have Combat Expertise once so you don't have anything to retrain away....
What if he retrains his bonus feat (level 2) to something else, then retrains his level 1 feat, then retrains his level 3 class (either directly back to Lore Warden, or to something else and back) to gain Combat Expertise, and then retrains the bonus feat back to Improved Trip?
Same outcome, way longer path.
10/10, would allow
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Just to be clear, it's not a "class bonus feat" it's simply granted by the class. No choices are being made. I'd call a "class bonus feat" something like the fighter or warpriest Bonus Feat, or hunter's Teamwork Feat.You don't "gain it multiple times" you have it two different ways. Any feat that you can "gain multiple times" has a numeric component that may stack.
You do not "fail" to gain a feat just because a previous class already had it. But if they do not stack, it usually does not matter.
I can see why a GM might disallow it, but I do not see this example as a rules reason to do so.
OK...
So you gain it at 1st level by taking the feat.
Then you gain it at 3rd level by class bonus feat.
How is that not gaining it multiple times?
Expertise (Ex): At 2nd level, a lore warden gains Combat
Expertise as a bonus feat, even if he would not normally
qualify for this feat. This ability replaces bravery 1.It's specifically called a bonus feat, and is specially stated as being gained...
So, either you're gaining Combat Expertise a 2nd time (which is contrary to the feats rules) or you're not, and you only have Combat Expertise once so you don't have anything to retrain away....
What if he retrains his bonus feat (level 2) to something else, then retrains his level 1 feat, then retrains his level 3 class (either directly back to Lore Warden, or to something else and back) to gain Combat Expertise, and then retrains the bonus feat back to Improved Trip?
Same outcome, way longer path.
Not saying there's not a longer retrain route to do what he wants. You can finagle most anything if you do it right with retraining nowadays.
I'm just saying it's not possible to do in the one step proposed.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Frankly, I think we need to ask the underlying question of "What happens when a class feature grants a feat I already possess?" Do you have a redundant copy, or do you fail to actually gain the feat?
This applies to a Lore Warden who already has Combat Expertise, or a ranger who already has Endurance (ha!), or a non-monk with Improved Unarmed Strike who then takes a level in monk, and probably others I'm forgetting.
So what actually happens? I don't think we can fully answer the OP's question until we answer this one, and this one will probably require a FAQ to answer.
While I agree that you can't "take" a feat twice, in most cases, there is nothing anywhere that says when you gain it from two sources you fail to gain it from the second.
Any level of Brawler (Base, not Archetypes) will have Improved Unarmed Combat no matter how much he retrained previous classes.
But lets say you are correct in that you cannot "gain" the feat multiple times. It still does not matter.
You gain the class feature either way. You don't have the ability to not gain the class feature. You always have it. It does not "give" it to you once, it gives it to you at all times.
The class feature in question is "Expertise". It gives you the Combat Expertise feat for free. As it is always active, the second you lose Combat Expertise from something else, you would gain it from here. Note, even if your Intelligence dropped from 13+ to 2, it would still work from this source as it specifically states so. If that ONLY mattered when you gained the class ability, then you would lose access to Combat Expertise if you had a high enough intelligence when you gain Level 2 of Lore Warden and lost intelligence at later levels.
So, I think that should work even if you were to follow your opinion that having a feat from two sources is the same as "gaining" a feat and stacking them.
You aren't stacking them, and you aren't taking the feat twice.
You are not attempting to take the negative on attack rolls twice and applying double the bonus to AC, that would be stacking them.
If anything, having the two feats overlaps, big whoop.
Having the feat from two sources very much leaves you in a perfect retraining position.
Logic, fairness and common sense say it's legal. The moment you'd "lose" Combat Expertise as a 1st level feat, you get it as the Archetype freebie. So you're never without the prerequisite.
Incorrect. Retraining a feat takes 5 days. Leveling up is instantaneous, and you cannot 'save' parts of the level advancement for later. 'Fairness' is the only part that would lead a GM to allow this as a houserule, but retraining a pre-req Feat to swap it for a bonus version of itself is against RAW.
I totally understand that a lot of people want to allow their players some leeway here, and it is absolutely fine for you to do it in your home game, but I again stress that it is not RAW, and this is the Rules Forum.
@Komoda, yes, the Monk/Brawler would lose FoB and IUS, according to RAW. It's silly, and I absolutely agree that an exception could easily be made to allow them to keep IUS because it's granted by two independent sources, but according to the rules, the appropriate thing to do would be to retrain the Monk level and the Brawler levels at the same time, combining their costs. The rules say that at the GM's discretion, the cost may be as much as 50% discounted for favorable circumstances, and I'd be inclined to invoke that, as well as allowing training synergies to make the whole process take less time. Final cost: 150gp (5x[30/2] + 2.5x[30/2] + 2.5x[30/2]) and 10 days (5 for Monk to Brawler, 2.5 each for Brawler to Brawler). This requires a little bit of leeway in terms of allowing time spent to be considered part of the 'cost' of retraining, but it adheres to the letter of the law while still allowing the player to have their fun. Same gp-cost and only a few more days training, easy. If you applied the 50% across the board, it could be done in 7.5 days instead of 10, but a couple days of downtime here and there don't really matter in most scenarios.
Logic, fairness and common sense say it's legal. The moment you'd "lose" Combat Expertise as a 1st level feat, you get it as the Archetype freebie. So you're never without the prerequisite.Incorrect. Retraining a feat takes 5 days. Leveling up is instantaneous, and you cannot 'save' parts of the level advancement for later. 'Fairness' is the only part that would lead a GM to allow this as a houserule, but retraining a pre-req Feat to swap it for a bonus version of itself is against RAW.
I totally understand that a lot of people want to allow their players some leeway here, and it is absolutely fine for you to do it in your home game, but I again stress that it is not RAW, and this is the Rules Forum.
@Komoda, yes, the Monk/Brawler would lose FoB and IUS, according to RAW. It's silly, and I absolutely agree that an exception could easily be made to allow them to keep IUS because it's granted by two independent sources, but according to the rules, the appropriate thing to do would be to retrain the Monk level and the Brawler levels at the same time, combining their costs. The rules say that at the GM's discretion, the cost may be as much as 50% discounted for favorable circumstances, and I'd be inclined to invoke that, as well as allowing training synergies to make the whole process take less time. Final cost: 150gp (5x[30/2] + 2.5x[30/2] + 2.5x[30/2]) and 10 days (5 for Monk to Brawler, 2.5 each for Brawler to Brawler). This requires a little bit of leeway in terms of allowing time spent to be considered part of the 'cost' of retraining, but it adheres to the letter of the law while still allowing the player to have their fun. Same gp-cost and only a few more days training, easy. If you applied the 50% across the board, it could be done in 7.5 days instead of 10, but a couple days of downtime here and there don't really matter in most scenarios.
Where in the rules is leveling up instantaneous?
It isn't instantaneous, but it follows a written path and it is immeasurably fast.
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level’s class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats. For more information on when you gain new feats and ability score increases, see Table 3–1.
Cuuniyevo, do you have anything to support what you are saying?
When the retraining rules were first introduced, I retrained the Two-Weapon Warrior archetype into Lore Warden, then retrained my normal feat Combat Expertise into something else. Not one GM I asked for advice ever once suggested that it didn't work that way.
The problem becomes that once the character has retrained, there's no "record" of the previous build. At 7th level, how on earth are we supposed to keep track of whether you had Combat Expertise when you took your second Lore Warden level and that you can never, ever gain Combat Expertise from your second Lore Warden level, no matter what?
You don't have Combat Expertise after you retrain it. Lore Warden level 2 gives you the Combat Expertise feat for free. When a GM audits a character with 2 levels of Lore Warden but doesn't list Lore Warden, that GM will almost certainly say, "You should have Combat Expertise" and write it in.
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Pretty sure lore warden would be an exception in the case of 'no taking feats multiple times'
Expertise (Ex): At 2nd level, a lore warden gains Combat
Expertise as a bonus feat, even if he would not normally
qualify for this feat. This ability replaces bravery 1.If you take Combat expertise before gaining this ability and Combat expertise is granted to you as a bonus feat normally you would not be able to gain the feat as it is a core rule that feats are not able to be taken multiple times.
Thing is that Lore warden has specific text that says otherwise. They qualify for combat expertise a second time because their class ability says so.
Then because you have two instances of a feat you can retrain one of them with no issue.
Unique to this specific scenario that's a really good point. It doesn't resolve any of Jiggy's similar scenarios, though.
Modules Overlord
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I'm posting as a player and not as a Dev speaking Ex Paizora
So, there's this odd sentence in the core rules, page 113, under "Benefits."
"If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description."
What I don't find (and I might just be missing it) is any rule that says I can't *have* a feat twice. I don't even see one saying I can't take it more than once - just that doing so does not gain me a benefit.
Does anyone have a specific reference in the rules that says I can't *have* the same feat twice?
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I'm posting as a player and not as a Dev speaking Ex Paizora
So, there's this odd sentence in the core rules, page 113, under "Benefits."
"If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description."What I don't find (and I might just be missing it) is any rule that says I can't *have* a feat twice. I don't even see one saying I can't take it more than once - just that doing so does not gain me a benefit.
Does anyone have a specific reference in the rules that says I can't *have* the same feat twice?
I haven't seen one and so far no one has pointed one out. The closest thing was Sniggevert pointed out that same feats say "you can take this feat multiple times". Personally, I say that it's just pointing that this has a benefit if taken multiple times. Because normally people wouldn't want to take a feat multiple times because it obviously doesn't stack with itself unless it says it does--so that example is the "unless it says it does".
I'm posting as a player and not as a Dev speaking Ex Paizora
So, there's this odd sentence in the core rules, page 113, under "Benefits."
"If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description."What I don't find (and I might just be missing it) is any rule that says I can't *have* a feat twice. I don't even see one saying I can't take it more than once - just that doing so does not gain me a benefit.
Does anyone have a specific reference in the rules that says I can't *have* the same feat twice?
Not a rules spelled out word for word in the book per se...but an ex Paizo Developer speaking as such it seemed in this thread here...
It's why I put so much emphasis on the feat's Special text spelling out where you can take a feat multiple times giving credence to the implicit rule that without it you could not.
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Modules Overlord
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Right. But I am (and have) willing to put my Pathfinder Rules Acumen up against Sean's. >:D
I'd argue that my explicit rules quote that if you DO have a feat multiple times it doesn't stack is greater proof that is CAN happen than his examples about which feats do stack proves it can't happen.
Also, there is a difference between not being able to SELECT a feat multiple times, and not being able to HAVE it multiple times. I'd personally never allow someone to decide to select Toughness 4 times, and just have the last 3 do nothing. But if a character got Toughness from an archetype and he already had it, I'd state that they don't stack, but for game rule purposes he did HAVE it twice, and could retrain one of them.
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But that's different than the question being asked. I'm not taking it multiple times. I took it once, and then it was just given to me. I didn't select it as both my first and third level feat. I selected at first, at level three, it just came with the class level.
Likewise, as insightful as SRK's posts are. The printed books (or the prd or whatever) and the FAQs supercede his posts. I haven't found anything in the book that says I wouldn't get it if a class gives me something I already have--just that it's pointless to have both as they don't stack. And Owen's direct quote from the book backs that up more than SKR's singular post.
We usually got retraining at half time if an ability was made redundant, but we had a nice GM. If not PFS then ask your GM.
Right. But I am (and have) willing to put my Pathfinder Rules Acumen up against Sean's. >:D
And I have believe it, and have every respect for your abilities (you won me over with the Guide to Absalom years back),that's not something I wish to get in the middle of...
Perhaps you can see if the Design Team might decide that "No Response Required" is still appropriate if it is still in debate years later.
With that, I bow out.
PRD says:It isn't instantaneous, but it follows a written path and it is immeasurably fast.
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level’s class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats. For more information on when you gain new feats and ability score increases, see Table 3–1.Cuuniyevo, do you have anything to support what you are saying?
PRD says:A character advances in level as soon as he earns enough experience points to do so—typically, this occurs at the end of a game session, when your GM hands out that session's experience point awards.
The process of advancing a character works in much the same way as generating a character, except that your ability scores, race, and previous choices concerning class, skills, and feats cannot be changed. Adding a level generally gives you new abilities, additional skill points to spend, more hit points, and possibly an ability score increase or additional feat (see Table: Character Advancement and Level-Dependent Bonuses). Over time, as your character rises to higher levels, he becomes a truly powerful force in the game world, capable of ruling nations or bringing them to their knees.
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats. For more information on when you gain new feats and ability score increases, see Table: Character Advancement and Level-Dependent Bonuses.
Retraining takes all your attention for 8 hours per day for a number of days based on what you're retraining. You can't perform any other strenuous activities while retraining, such as marching, adventuring, or crafting magic items. You can retrain only one thing at a time; you must complete or abandon a particular training goal before starting another one.
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Unless stated otherwise, retraining costs gp equal to 10 × your level × the number of days required to retrain. This is normally paid in full at the start of the retraining period, but the GM might allow you to divide these payments over multiple days. At the GM's discretion, this training cost could be up to 50% higher or lower, depending on situational factors within the settlement—availability of trainers, local economy, cost of materials, and so on.
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When retraining multiple character options (class features, feats, classes, etc.) in one continuous period, all of the new selections are made at the end of that period in an order decided by the player. If this period is interrupted for any reason all choices must be made immediately. In this way players can retrain class features and their prerequisites at the same time.
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In general, it takes 7 days to retrain one level in a class into one level in another class. Some classes are more suited for this kind of retraining, as they have a similar focus or purpose—this is called retraining synergy. If your old class has retraining synergy with your new class, retraining that class level takes only 5 days instead of 7 days.
The main issue here is whether or not you can have 2 of the same feat, even if they do the same thing and do not stack. Some are on one side, and some are on the other. I believed that you were not supposed to have multiple copies of a feat unless the feat specifically says it can stack, and therefore the bonus feats from Brawler would simply not be added to your character sheet, because you already had that feat from Monk. Removing the level in Monk would remove the feats you were granted by it, and you'd be left without IUS. I believed that having all three levels be retrained consecutively, at a discount as I suggested, was the best solution per RAW. I'll reiterate that I completely understand why most people want to hand-wave it, and in a home-game I'd certainly be open to discussion about it, but I didn't think the rules supported it. The quote regarding benefits on page 113 of the CRB certainly does seem to imply otherwise though, so for the Monk/Brawler question, I feel compelled to agree that it is legal. Good find, OKCS!
That being said, the original question in this thread was from claudekennilol, and that answer is still no. First of all, you don't get a bonus feat at level 2, but let's assume you actually meant: Level 1 (any class, choose Combat Expertise); level 2 (any other class); level 3 (Lore Warden, choose Improved Trip); level 4 (Lore Warden, get Combat Expertise for free); retrain. That is still illegal because CE was used as the pre-req for IT, and you're not allowed to retrain it according to…
PRD
The old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability.
PRD says:It isn't instantaneous, but it follows a written path and it is immeasurably fast.
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level’s class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats. For more information on when you gain new feats and ability score increases, see Table 3–1.Cuuniyevo, do you have anything to support what you are saying?...A character advances in level as soon as he earns enough experience points to do so—typically, this occurs at the end of a game session, when your GM hands out that session's experience point awards.
The process of advancing a character works in much the same way as generating a character, except that your ability scores, race, and previous choices concerning class, skills, and feats cannot be changed. Adding a level generally gives you new abilities, additional skill points to spend, more hit points, and possibly an ability score increase or additional feat (see Table: Character Advancement and Level-Dependent Bonuses). Over time, as your character rises to higher levels, he becomes a truly powerful force in the game world, capable of ruling nations or bringing them to their knees.
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third,
Except that you still have the feat.
A similar question would be something like a sorcerer who takes 4 levels of bloodrager gaining eschew materials twice.
Ultimate Campaign page 191 wrote:
The old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability.
That should REALLY be read as "The old feat can't be one you are currently using as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability. Reading it the most literal way, if you EVER had something as a prerequisite you'd have to make a note of it even if you no longer have anything thet requires it or have another prerequisite now. That makes little sense. For instance, I take dodge then Mobility. Later I retrain mobility but can NEVER retain dodge because it was once used as a prerequisite? No, the only sane way to look at it is the feat would NEED to be the required prerequisite at the time of retaining to be disallowed.
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If you can't have the same feat twice, even if they do nothing, then you are ineligible for the level of the class that grants it since you already have it.
Either you can have it twice (even doing nothing) or you can only have it once- and can not take a level of a class that grants a bonus feat for a feat you already have.
If you can't have it twice though then you can't take the class level that grants it- just like you can't take Eschew Materials multiple times (even for no effect on subsequent feats).
-S
That should REALLY be read as "The old feat can't be one you are currently using as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability. Reading it the most literal way, if you EVER had something as a prerequisite you'd have to make a note of it even if you no longer have anything thet requires it or have another prerequisite now. That makes little sense. For instance, I take dodge then Mobility. Later I retrain mobility but can NEVER retain dodge because it was once used as a prerequisite? No, the only sane way to look at it is the feat would NEED to be the required prerequisite at the time of retaining to be disallowed.Ultimate Campaign page 191 wrote:
The old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability.
100% agree that that is how it SHOULD be written. I'm just pointing out that it isn't how it ACTUALLY is. I didn't write the stupid rule. :P
As I've said 4 times now (there was another thread where this came up), I absolutely understand and agree that you should be able to do this, but I believe it's against the rules. The RAW way to read it is that you need to retrain the second feat that requires the prerequisite at the same time as you train the first feat. This way you are, in essence, picking up the stack of 'feat' cards and laying them back down in an appropriate order, one at a time, with each placement being legal. What you are trying to do is change a card in the middle or at the bottom without ever touching the card on top. It's a well-intentioned shenanigan, and an expedient one, but it's not a legal move. As I laid out above, a GM could easily reduce the cost and duration of the retraining to bring it in line with the original idea. It's one extra hoop to jump through, but not an onerous one.
The RAW way to read it is that you need to retrain the second feat that requires the prerequisite at the same time as you train the first feat. This way you are, in essence, picking up the stack of 'feat' cards and laying them back down in an appropriate order, one at a time, with each placement being legal. What you are trying to do is change a card in the middle or at the bottom without ever touching the card on top. It's a well-intentioned shenanigan, and an expedient one, but it's not a legal move. As I laid out above, a GM could easily reduce the cost and duration of the retraining to bring it in line with the original idea. It's one extra hoop to jump through, but not an onerous one.
Actually, it's not a hoop but an unchangable feat if you read it that way. Sounds quite onerous. Especially true when you have a duplicate feat. or you can read it a bit looser than strictest literal reading and take a reading that makes sense.
To go with the card analogy, you've got a full run, 2 to king. You pull a second 2 from the deck and want to shuffle it back in. At NO time where you ever without a two though. No shenanigan (well-intentioned or otherwise). You at no time didn't have a straight.
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I'm pretty certain scenarios like this are exactly why the retraining rules exist.
Just to be clear graystone, are you saying that the retraining rules are supposed to allow you to have a level 4 bonus feat be used as the prerequisite for a level 3 regular feat?
The situation described in the OP is (in my view) illegal because Combat Expertise is granted as part of a class ability AFTER Improved Trip is chosen. Regarding your take on the card analogy, Paizo differentiates between the sequence 2-3-4-5-6 and 3-4-5-6-2, with the latter being illegal. You do not have all your class abilities and feats in a bag, ready to put in or out in whatever order you want; it is instead much like a stack, as I described. Levels and feats stack on top of each other one at a time, and you aren't allowed to pull from the bottom while there's something relying on it as a prerequisite UNLESS you retrain multiple things consecutively as per the quote which I'll provide again:
When retraining multiple character options (class features, feats, classes, etc.) in one continuous period, all of the new selections are made at the end of that period in an order decided by the player. If this period is interrupted for any reason all choices must be made immediately. In this way players can retrain class features and their prerequisites at the same time.
This is the only part of the retraining rules which says you may retrain prerequisites. It is only to be used as part of retraining multiple options. You are otherwise not allowed to touch the 'card' at the bottom of the stack. You may only do it when it is part of a larger reorganization.
I ABSOLUTELY AGREE that the retraining rules could and should be rewritten or FAQ'd to be better and more user-friendly! I just can't agree that the words written clearly in my book don't mean what they say.
@master_marshmallow and Selgard, Owen K.C. Stevens already pointed out the relevant rule about having multiple feats with benefit unless specified otherwise, and I agreed with his interpretation in a previous post. I had overlooked that line in the CRB before, despite actually checking the Feat chapter (I didn't think to look under the Benefits line >.< ).
A fighter can retrain a feat he took at 1st-level into a feat that requires a base attack bonus of 15 at 15th-level. Developers have said as much in the FAQ.
There is no stack. Not anymore. Not really. Retraining did away with that concept.
A fighter can retrain a feat he took at 1st-level into a feat that requires a base attack bonus of 15 at 15th-level. Developers have said as much in the FAQ.
There is no stack. Not anymore. Not really. Retraining did away with that concept.
That FAQ says that you can use the new things you have (BAB, new feats, etc.) as prerequisites, but it does not say you can retrain a feat that was used as a prerequisite for something else that you still have. Therefore, the rule as written in Ultimate Campaign still stands in that regard. The FAQ would need to be expanded or a new one made to address that issue.
That FAQ says that you can use the new things you have (BAB, new feats, etc.) as prerequisites, but it does not say you can retrain a feat that was used as a prerequisite for something else that you still have. Therefore, the rule as written in Ultimate Campaign still stands in that regard. The FAQ would need to be expanded or a new one made to address that issue.A fighter can retrain a feat he took at 1st-level into a feat that requires a base attack bonus of 15 at 15th-level. Developers have said as much in the FAQ.
There is no stack. Not anymore. Not really. Retraining did away with that concept.
The problem is that Combat Expertise is a general feat that doesn't target anything, and many feats simply require you to have Combat Expertise.
If you have an ability that grants Combat Expertise or the ability specifically says it COUNTS as Combat Expertise for the sake of meeting Prerequisites, you can "turn off" your old Feat by Retraining it. The dependent Feat then looks around for a legal source, sees the ability which grants/counts as Combat Expertise, and latches onto that ability instead of the original Feat. Everything still functions, and you carry on.
The same is true for Retraining to replace Weapon Finesse once you've got Swashbuckler's or Champion's Finesse - Slashing Grace still works perfectly fine because you have Weapon Finesse through an ability.
Like Ravingdork said, there is no more Stacking.
Your characters' Feats only care about your stats at this very moment, not those from 5 levels ago.
Think of it like a Photoshop File: When you go to export an image as a jpeg, Photoshop doesn't care about your History or in what sequence you manipulated your Layers, or whether you used a Filter or just manipulated the image by hand; the program will read all the visible information and create a bitmap based on just that info, so as long as your Layers are arranged in an order that creates a cohesive image, it doesn't matter when you did what - you still get your final image.
Your Character is the same thing: just a snapshot of your stats at the moment. So long as you have 4 Feat Slots available in total, and three of those are filled with Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Greater Weapon Focus, you can have Greater Weapon Specialization in that fourth slot, regardless of what "order" those slots are arranged in (meaning you could retrain your Level 1 Feat Slot to hold GWS while your lv15 Feat Slot could be filled with Weapon Focus and you're a 12 levels of Fighter).
Just to be clear graystone, are you saying that the retraining rules are supposed to allow you to have a level 4 bonus feat be used as the prerequisite for a level 3 regular feat?
To be clear we have a 1st level feat, a third level feat with the 1st as a prerequisite and a 4th level ability that grants feat #1. After gaining the ability, you can then retrain feat #1 as you can do so without the 3rd level feat ever being without it's prerequisite.
Lets look at it another way. Lets say I get that special ability that grants me a feat a 4th, then I retrain my 3rd level feat into one that requires that 4th level feat. That's allowable and I'm not seeing a big difference between the situations. The devs have already ruled that with retraining, you check to see if you qualify for the feat at the time of retraining and not at the time you would have gained the feat.
Or yet another way to look at it. I'm a human that takes Racial Heritage (orc) then I take feats that require orc. As I level, I take a level in sorcerer and take orc bloodline. That means my orc feats can get thier prerequisite from the bloodline. Since Racial Heritage (orc) is no longer required, it can be retrained.
I don't really understand why you're trying to convince me of something I've already said I agree with, while ignoring the rule I quoted which says it doesn't work the way we want it to.
The general rule is: "The old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability."
The specific rule is: "When retraining multiple character options (class features, feats, classes, etc.) in one continuous period, all of the new selections are made at the end of that period in an order decided by the player. If this period is interrupted for any reason all choices must be made immediately. In this way players can retrain class features and their prerequisites at the same time."
Therefore, you can't retrain a prerequisite unless it's part of a continuous retraining period including the feature you want to keep and the feature that provides access to it. Retraining a feat that is not part of a feat chain to be more useful later is absolutely allowed and I never said it wasn't, but you still haven't addressed the issue of not being allowed to retrain a feat that is part of a feat chain without retraining the parts relying on it in the same continuous session. Apart from the FAQ (which does not say that you are allowed to circumvent the prerequisites clause), do you have any official quotes to support your reading of the rule?
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If you can't have it twice though then you can't take the class level that grants it- just like you can't take Eschew Materials multiple times (even for no effect on subsequent feats).-S
Where does it say you can't take eschew materials multiple times? In fact, where does it say you can't take any feat multiple times? Here is the quote from the PRD under Feat Descriptions;
The following format is used for all feat descriptions.
Feat Name: The feat's name also indicates what subcategory, if any, the feat belongs to, and is followed by a basic description of what the feat does.
Prerequisite: A minimum ability score, another feat or feats, a minimum base attack bonus, a minimum number of ranks in one or more skills, or anything else required in order to take the feat. This entry is absent if a feat has no prerequisite. A feat may have more than one prerequisite.
Benefit: What the feat enables the character (“you” in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.
Normal: What a character who does not have this feat is limited to or restricted from doing. If not having the feat causes no particular drawback, this entry is absent.
Special: Additional unusual facts about the feat.
I've italicized and bolded the important part. The very fact that it says "if a character has the same feat more than once" expressly implies that a character, any character, can select a feat multiple times. Specific feats will let you know if you gain a benefit from selecting this feat multiple times, or if you've just made a very bad decision. ;)
As far as the OP question goes I do not think that by RAW the scenario would be allowed because of the caveat that says "the old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite".
Even though in the example listed it can reasonably be debated that the character is not using his level 1 Combat Expertise as a prerequisite any longer, the fact that he used it as a prerequisite makes it ineligible for retraining.
That's what the RAW says (IMO).
However, the logistics and paperwork required to track which feat did what several levels ago is not something I'm partial too and I would 100% let any of my characters retrain the level 1 Combat Expertise.
If that Player was planning to do that in organized play I would advise them to expect table variation and proceed with caution.
I don't really understand why you're trying to convince me of something I've already said I agree with, while ignoring the rule I quoted which says it doesn't work the way we want it to.
You are misunderstanding me. I'm saying that the rule you are pointing to can be read two ways. One leads to feats that can NEVER be retrained and the other makes sense and works. I'm suggestion you read it less literally than you are, that's all.
As far as feat chains, I explained it. When you have a feat chain that ends up with 2 base feats, you can retrain one away as long as the the chain stays complete. For instance, take Boar Resilience. I take it with extra traits feat. it has a line "In addition, you can ignore the Endurance prerequisite for the Diehard feat." So i retrain without issue.
Or I gain Splash Weapon Mastery that "This feat counts as Far Shot for the purpose of qualifying for other feats, but only in regard to splash weapons." If I pick up this, what is the issue with training out my farshot as I have another feature/feat that STILL counts as the prerequisite. The feats don't CARE which individual item qualifies as long as all of them are satisfied.
I'm saying that the rule you are pointing to can be read two ways. One leads to feats that can NEVER be retrained and the other makes sense and works. I'm suggestion you read it less literally than you are, that's all.
It's not a case of never being allowed to retrain though. I already quoted the proper procedure by the rules. You may change features and their prerequisites as part of retraining multiple features consecutively. As I said before, it's 1 more hoop to jump through on a technical level, but if the GM is lenient on the cost and time spent, it gives you the exact result you want without having to ignore the RAW.
Rewriting the rules and/or reading parts of them 'less literally' to make them more convenient is the very definition of homebrew. I have quite a few house-rules that I use to make the game more fun with my group, but I don't see the point in trying to convince myself that they're not actually house-rules.
Regardless, unless people want to FAQ it, I think we've all said our piece on the matter and can safely carry on. =]
Cuuniyevo, I think you've jumped one extra step to the retraining multiple features, as it's unneeded. Unless you go with the literal reading, then you can't get to that step. [The old feat can't be one you used as a prerequisite]
For me, "retraining multiple features" is for retraining whole trees. Retraining a single feature, when it's not needed as a prerequisite any longer, should involve retraining just that single feature.
I understand you read it differently, but I don't see your reading as the only reading. It's fine to be persnickety but reading it as a technicality for the proper procedure isn't the right way to go IMO. it's best to just say "this is badly written" and stick with what works.
And I'll agree we've covered everything here. :)
PS: I'd normally say I'd be up with a FAQ but with the vast majority of FAQ's lately being ones a dislike, I'm unsure of getting this looked at.