Sorry if this topic has alread been discussed before. I have a PC in my game who wants to take Leadership and use his followers to create a thieves guild in the city. I think the initial idea is interesting but then he went on to say 'I can leave the city, go adventuring, get loot and come back and have bags of gold waiting for me from the guild'.
I know Leadership is a controversial feat anyway, the problem is I've already allowed another PC to take it. His followers are the crew to a ship that he bought, he pays them standard wages, supplies them, etc. I'd feel sort of lousy saying no since I allowed another character the same feat.
I like the idea of the thieves guild but not as an endless supply of gold that isn't earned during play.
Has anyone else used Leadership for a guild in this way and if so how did you handle it?
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Instead of giving earned income you could rule that most of the monies earned are used as the upkeep of the guild. It pays for itself, and having it allows a discount for smuggled items like poisons, black-market magic items and the like. It also gives free information from his network of spies, and means it is a lot easier to get access to (and leverage about) the local nobility and government.
Essentially he gets a bunch of thematic and situationally useful benefits, just not an unlimited cash source.
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Well, to put it in perspective, a thieves' guild from Ultimate Campaign grants a +17 to the capital (gp) gain check. If he's not present, he needs to be there regularly (ie, not gone more than 1 week a month) or lose the group without a manager. Assume his cohort would take that role, which means the cohort is not questing with him. Gold is earned at the skill divided by 10 per day. Assume a 10 on most days. That means it is 2.7 gp/day. Even being generous, and allowing the cohort to use his stats (and the likely ranks he'd have in relevant skills), I'd say that gives an additional 10, so 1gp/day. So 4gp/day. He isn't going to have boatloads of cash.
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I do want to point out that the Thieves' Guild in the Ultimate Campaign assumes a count of 25 people. So for every 5 more, it would add between 2 and 5 silver per day. Even assuming the max listed leadership score from Pathfinder, with 110 extra level 1s, and some higher levels giving extra bonuses, you're looking at maybe 15gp/day. So he can get two free potions of Cure Light Wounds each week?
Likely, the biggest concern would be that he is upset and feels cheated for how little he's making. In reality, he can make good money, but only after years of investing in building buildings and organizations and managing them. It just becomes very small compared to adventuring. I only see it working in campaigns with lots of down time, like Kingmaker or the sort.
In addition to the above, there could be costs to running the thieves guild.
Local law enforcement may extort bribes to not just arrest every thief in the guild.
Or a prominent member of the guild might get caught doing something really bad and need expensive lawyers for his defense - if the guildmaster says "no", he risks losing reputation as per "caused the death of other followers".
He may not make much money and he may have to spend a lot of it on extra expenses.
Just be glad he didn't make a cohort with item creation feats to break his WBL value...
I believe that the recently deceased Terry Pratchett shows how a properly thought out theives guild would work in one of his novels set in Ankh Morpork.
On making money, The ultimate Campaign numbers seem low, way to low to make any sense to me.
In a Mummy's Mask campaign I am currently in, the Charisma Monster Summoner has Mythic Leadership and plans to use have his followers run a shop. The idea is we can sell loot at closer to full value. And items made by my character and his cohort, both of whom have mythic crafting.
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Running a shop or guild has a chance of random events, some of which include those negative chances of things (like a cop wanting to arrest thieves). As far as it being small, a guildmaster for a thieves' guild, a 3rd level rogue, is worth 5gp/day to be paid. Note, this isn't how much money you're making as the owner, but how much you'd be paid as the worker. (Then living expenses, which would be some, obviously...) How much money do you expect to make working? Or profit from having a few 1st level commoners (or even skilled classes) making some cash?
As far as selling your own goods, how fast do items sell? Part of the cost of selling your magic items is that items don't sell instantly. You may have to wait a year or two to sell items. In the end, you'll make more money, sure, but it won't be much use to you as an adventurer who wants the cash now.
As far as selling your own goods, how fast do items sell? Part of the cost of selling your magic items is that items don't sell instantly. You may have to wait a year or two to sell items. In the end, you'll make more money, sure, but it won't be much use to you as an adventurer who wants the cash now.
Bradley, you make some sensible points.
But sensible is what the economics of RPGs is not, a bit of a soapbox issue of mine to be honest.And in the Mummy's Mask campaign mentioned, we are currently level 9 and mythic tier 5.
My character Hellga the cerebremancer has mythic crafter, crafting mastery and display of intelligence and an intelligence of 28 and a bunch of spells to make her crafting better.
Hellga has so many advantages crafting magic items that I have trouble keeping track of them and I don't roll to craft items, its automatic.
I don't know how many crafters in Golarion can do this kind of thing, or make mythic magic and psionic items.
And my nephews followers are about to become mythic, or rather another 9 are.
What all of this means is the competition is minimal and stuff I make is likely to sell like hot cakes and very rich adventurers and royalty etc. should be falling over themselves to get mythic items crafted for them by this legendary crafter.
Now that is what is sensible. What the Pathfinder rules do is drive adventurers into dungeons to get more loot.
Our GM seems to want to steer a middle course and let us get around 75% value for stuff we would get 50%, with a delay and resources tied up in a shop.
You are 100% right that shops involve delays, the need to keep and store stock, wages, rent, taxes, shoplifting and the like. But shops do make money.
Just let him use Ultimate Campaign's downtime rules to represent it.
It will be totally balanced with him not being able to take his cohort on adventures.
Just let him use Ultimate Campaign's downtime rules to represent it.
It will be totally balanced with him not being able to take his cohort on adventures.
Our GM does not want cohorts around in combat in any event.
These are some really good ideas. I don't own Ultimate Campaign but now I think I'll be picking it up soon. Having his cohort run the guild sounds like a fair trade off for making a little extra and getting some discounted items. Thanks!
Definitely get Ultimate Campaign, but here are the downtime rules in the meantime!
(As I don't know how familiar you are with d20pfsrd.com, I can assure you that they are entirely legal and entirely great. Similarly great, similarly legal, though different, is the Archives of Nethys. Finally, not a rules thing at all, but worthwhile, is the Pathfinder Wiki! There's also Paizo's own PRD, buuuuuuuuu~t, I prefer that the least of the options, though it's certainly better than it was (in my opinion).)
Why don't you prefer the offical PRD? It's absolutely the most accurate and official resource. The official PRD is always my first choice, followed by the Archives of Nethys and the d20pfsrd (in that order, as the latter has been known to make assumptions and mistakes) if I don't find it on the official site.
The wiki is really only good for fluff information on the campaign setting itself.
The wiki is really only good for fluff information on the campaign setting itself.
Hence,
Finally, not a rules thing at all, but worthwhile,
... so I thought that was pretty clear?
Why don't you prefer the offical PRD? It's absolutely the most accurate and official resource. The official PRD is always my first choice, followed by the Archives of Nethys and the d20pfsrd (in that order, as the latter has been known to make assumptions and mistakes) if I don't find it on the official site.
No, it is not "the most accurate" unless you mean "the closest to the print in a specific book, ignoring intent, and all official rules clarifications": the PRD is a direct word-to-word replication of the printed materials. The organization lends itself to this.
This is good.
It lacks any kind of updates, FAQ, errata, etc. It's what is literally printed, and entirely lacks any clarification that has subsequently been made by Paizo.
What's more, it lacks any resources beyond that which is in the PRD.
Unlike the PRD, Archives of Nethys has everything compiled and clarified, however I find it less easily navigable. Searchable, but if I misspell something (I'm prone, as a dyslexic) or aren't quite sure what I'm looking for but have near-references, the search engine isn't ideal, though it's pretty great.
d20pfsrd is excellent because it has everything legally available - both Paizo and third party - and because all of the Paizo stuff is carefully collected and collated from across various sources. So if a variant rule is mentioned in an AP (for example), but not the Core line (i.e. "not the stuff on the PRD"), it gets incorporated into the rules, and the sources are cited. This is like the Archives. On the other hand, it's easier to navigate than AoN, as it has an easy and clear interface and menu, and it's search function is very inclusive. Plus, much like a wiki, it heavily cross-references most anything you could want from two different places together. The major drawback of d20pfsrd.com (which are intrinsically linked) is that a) they aren't allowed the fluff of Golarion, and b) they run all their advertisements (because they have a store).
The PRD does include errata.
I'm of the reverse opinion on d20pfsrd. It's a great resource to be sure, but they make mistakes, change the names of things, and create a number of other unintentional inconveniences for their users. (These are minor when compared to the huge advantages their site provides, but those fiddly inconveniences do still exist.)
Archives of Nethys, on the other hand, seems to make fewer mistakes (none that I've seen), doesn't change the names of things, and makes it much easier to find stuff.
One thing I will give to d20pfsrd, however, are its database tables. They are ugly and unwieldy (they've crashed my browser more than once), but in the absence of anything comparable, they are a great tool for finding things like spells of specific subschool, or a monster of a specific CR, type, and size.
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When I want exact rules wording, I look to the PRD.
When I want all about something in the rules, I look to d20pfsrd.
When I want info on an item, I look to the Archives of Nethys.
PRD lacks splatbook info.
D20pfsrd lacks AP items.
Archives of Nethys lacks rules.
For searching, I prefer D20pfsrd to Archives of Nethys to PRD.
Each is useful.
/cevah
The PRD does include errata.
For some books (only after a book has been reprinted). I will admit my technical error in including that - I should have stated "some errata" in the midst of everything else.
Mark Seifter had some interesting things to say about the whole thing.
When I want exact rules wording, I look to the PRD.
When I want all about something in the rules, I look to d20pfsrd.
When I want info on an item, I look to the Archives of Nethys.PRD lacks splatbook info.
D20pfsrd lacks AP items.
Archives of Nethys lacks rules.For searching, I prefer D20pfsrd to Archives of Nethys to PRD.
Each is useful.
/cevah
Exactly. I just have my preferences, and the PRD is not it.
EDIT: For more clarity. This is not because the PRD is bad. It's because for my preferences (which is what RD was asking about initially), it's the least useful of the options.
I think it's very reasonable for a PC to take a feat for the purpose of increasing the character's wealth. For the most part, this is what item creation feats are for.
The question is how to balance it as a GM.
Assuming the player doesn't use the Leadership feat for any other purpose (i.e. to have a cohort), I think it would be very reasonable for the feat to improve the PC's wealth gain by 25% or so. That is, however much gold the PC makes from adventuring, they should earn about 25% extra from the thieves' guild. This is just for the PC who took the feat -- don't let the guild increase the party's wealth by 25%.
By the way, don't reveal this amount to the player. Handle everything in-game. Also, make sure to vary the amounts in an unpredictable way -- the player should never get the sense that this income is particularly reliable.
The leadership feat also grants a cohort, but my suggestion would be to make the cohort someone who's integral to the functioning of the thieves' guild. If the PC has the cohort accompany them on an adventure, the guild should be considerably less effective at making money during that time, e.g. something like a 10% income enhancement instead of 25%.
You also shouldn't let the PC simply hang around in town and make money from the guild, unless you feel like the PC is behind on wealth. If the PC tries to do this, just drop an adventure hook related to the guild, e.g. another guild is threatening to end the operations, or the guild gets in trouble with the law, or a powerful monster or NPC has sworn revenge on the guild. It should be something that basically shuts down the guild's moneymaking until the PC gets back into the game.
What makes him think that the other thieves in the guild will not rob him blind while he is gone? To expect honesty from thieves is kind of silly.
What makes him think that the other thieves in the guild will not rob him blind while he is gone? To expect honesty from thieves is kind of silly.
And that my friend is well represented by capital attrition. If he stays away too long, his fellows see it as an opportunity to slip a few things by him, thereby reducing his earnings. If he is gone too long, then he faces business attrition, or the risk of losing the guild altogether as they lose confidence in their leader and wrest control away from him (which may need roleplaying to get back).
This is all covered in the downtime rules in Ultimate Campaign.