Phylactery of Positive Channeling and Cure Spells


Rules Questions


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So the Phylactery of Positive Channeling says:

This item allows channelers of positive energy to increase .....

Cure Light Wounds states:

When laying your hand upon a living creature, you channel positive energy that ...

Or Cure Light Wounds, Mass:

You channel positive energy to...

So in my mind when you cast a cure spell you are channeling positive energy and therefore your phylactery of positive channeling should do its thing.

I have been told however that the Phylactery of Positive Channeling only enhances the effects of the Channel Energy super natural ability of the cleric and NOTHING else.

So my question is, what is it? Where does it state that the phylactery of positive channeling is limited in this way? Why doesn't this item increase Cure spells?


No. It only refers to the channel energy class feature.

As far as why, because the descriptive text in the spell is only descriptive text. It has nothinn to do with the Channel Energy class feature.

It also doesn't make any sense because cure spells heal in multiples of d8s. While the item adds d6s to it. It doesn't make sense to enhance an ability with a different type of dice. Where as Channel Energy is a class feature that does use d6's.

Sorry if this is not a satisfactory answer, but the phylactery really only works on the Channel Energy class feature.


There is "run" and there is "Run". Words are sometimes used as keywords in the game, and sometimes they are purely descriptors. "Channel positive energy" as a keyword/action refers to what a cleric can do. In the cure light wounds spell, it's purely describing what happens. Yes, the fluff is similar, but that makes sense since the effects are siblings.

To use cure light wounds you "cast cure light wounds". To use channel energy, you "channel positive energy" (or negative if you're an evil cleric or yadayadayada). The actions are not the same.

Think of it like an angry Fighter who is "overcome by rage". You might find that phrase somewhere in some book, but it doesn't reference the barbarian ability.


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Anguish wrote:

There is "run" and there is "Run". Words are sometimes used as keywords in the game, and sometimes they are purely descriptors. "Channel positive energy" as a keyword/action refers to what a cleric can do. In the cure light wounds spell, it's purely describing what happens. Yes, the fluff is similar, but that makes sense since the effects are siblings.

To use cure light wounds you "cast cure light wounds". To use channel energy, you "channel positive energy" (or negative if you're an evil cleric or yadayadayada). The actions are not the same.

Think of it like an angry Fighter who is "overcome by rage". You might find that phrase somewhere in some book, but it doesn't reference the barbarian ability.

Well lets not assume that, it might mean the fighter got his butt kicked by a barbarian... overcome by rage. :D


Claxon wrote:

No. It only refers to the channel energy class feature.

As far as why, because the descriptive text in the spell is only descriptive text. It has nothinn to do with the Channel Energy class feature.

It also doesn't make any sense because cure spells heal in multiples of d8s. While the item adds d6s to it. It doesn't make sense to enhance an ability with a different type of dice. Where as Channel Energy is a class feature that does use d6's.

Sorry if this is not a satisfactory answer, but the phylactery really only works on the Channel Energy class feature.

Your comment on the different types of dice doesn't stand if you ask me. A holy greataxe does D12s of damage with 2d6 added on... you could easily do your regular healing damage and then do +2d6.

As for it being just descriptive text, what else do we have to go on? That is all we have for the magic item, isn't it?


Anguish wrote:

There is "run" and there is "Run". Words are sometimes used as keywords in the game, and sometimes they are purely descriptors. "Channel positive energy" as a keyword/action refers to what a cleric can do. In the cure light wounds spell, it's purely describing what happens. Yes, the fluff is similar, but that makes sense since the effects are siblings.

To use cure light wounds you "cast cure light wounds". To use channel energy, you "channel positive energy" (or negative if you're an evil cleric or yadayadayada). The actions are not the same.

Think of it like an angry Fighter who is "overcome by rage". You might find that phrase somewhere in some book, but it doesn't reference the barbarian ability.

So how are we suppose to know which are "keywords" and which are "fluff". As are as I know, magic items don't make that distinction. Feats sometimes do. I think I have seen magic items that are specific to a class ability, but I can't think of a specific one off the top of my head. This magic item however doesn't clearly make a distinction. It simply says channelers of positive energy. It doesn't say Those with the class ability to channel positive energy or anything like that.


Look, I'm not going to argue with your here.

I'm not very good at explaining things sometimes, and I guess this is one of those times.

The final answer is that it doesn't. Don't worry so much about why it doesn't, because it's not going to change that it doesn't enhance it.

In any event, my point about the dice was that it seems moreobvious that it was meant to enhance Channel Energy versus CLW.

There is actually no descriptive text in the description of the Phylactery of Positive Channeling.

Also, perhaps this will help. There is also a phylactery of negative energy. They both use a line like this:

Quote:
This item allows channelers of positive energy to increase the amount of damage dealt to undead creatures by +2d6

That line attempts to tell you who qualifies. Channlers of positive energy. Now, your interpretation means bards qualify to use the phylactery with their CLW spell because it descriptively says you use positive energy to heal. But it's not Channel Energy. Which is what the item is actually referring to.


Matt McLane wrote:
So how are we suppose to know which are "keywords" and which are "fluff". As are as I know, magic items don't make that distinction. Feats sometimes do. I think I have seen magic items that are specific to a class ability, but I can't think of a specific one off the top of my head. This magic item however doesn't clearly make a distinction. It simply says channelers of positive energy. It doesn't say Those with the class ability to channel positive energy or anything like that.

Actually, the item's crafting requirement specifically requires a 10th level cleric.


Claxon wrote:

Look, I'm not going to argue with your here.

I'm not very good at explaining things sometimes, and I guess this is one of those times.

The final answer is that it doesn't. Don't worry so much about why it doesn't, because it's not going to change that it doesn't enhance it.

In any event, my point about the dice was that it seems moreobvious that it was meant to enhance Channel Energy versus CLW.

There is actually no descriptive text in the description of the Phylactery of Positive Channeling.

Also, perhaps this will help. There is also a phylactery of negative energy. They both use a line like this:

Quote:
This item allows channelers of positive energy to increase the amount of damage dealt to undead creatures by +2d6
That line attempts to tell you who qualifies. Channlers of positive energy. Now, your interpretation means bards qualify to use the phylactery with their CLW spell because it descriptively says you use positive energy to heal. But it's not Channel Energy. Which is what the item is actually referring to.

I am not trying to have an argument either, I am looking for clarification and I just don't like the answer of "because it doesn't work that way". That is the only answer anyone has been able to give so far, I can't fine a why. Also, no one can point me to an official clarifying source. I think I have a completely valid point. Yes, I think bards should be able to use it to enhance their cure spells along with Oracles.

As I said, when you cast a cure spell you are channeling positive energy, the spell description says so. So.. you are a channeler of positive energy.. its that simple if you ask me.


1 is an ability, channel positive energy. the other is fluff of the spell. The magic item is talking about the ability not the fluff.


The item should refer to the "ability to channel energy as a cleric" or something similar, but it is vaguely worded - probably so that it didn't exclude non-clerics from using it.

Unfortunately, as you've pointed out, "channelers of positive energy" is not explicitly defined anywhere.

That said, the intent seems obvious to me given that it requires Cleric levels to craft, the increased healing is expressed in D6s, and there is no allusion to Cure spells or any other sort of magical healing outside of a weak connection to descriptive text.


Obviously it means they get +2d6 damage even on attacks with a mace or whatever; I mean it doesn't say the bonus damage is restricted to just on channels.

Alternately, sometimes you have to use common sense when reading these things.


what about lay on hands?


666bender wrote:

what about lay on hands?

Only when using two uses of lay on hands to power the paladin's "Channel positive energy" class feature gained at level 4.


Ian Bell wrote:

Obviously it means they get +2d6 damage even on attacks with a mace or whatever; I mean it doesn't say the bonus damage is restricted to just on channels.

Alternately, sometimes you have to use common sense when reading these things.

Absolutely.. I absolutely believe you have to use common sense. I am just suggesting that when you cast a cure spell you are also channeling positive energy so the magic item should work. Sure your not using the Channel Energy class ability but your channeling positive energy all the same. The way I have read it I am using common sense. I am giving it all a fairly literal read sure, but why isn't that valid?


Remember that some of us have the benefit of having been playing this system basically forever, so there's some historical background that's always useful.

In 3.0 and 3.5, cure light wounds had the same text. You "channel positive energy". Only there was no such ability. That's something Jason and the development team came up with as a rebuild for turn undead, when working on the PF beta. So we oldsters know that the text in CLW is fluff. It always was a description of how the spell worked.

This is part of "how do I tell what is fluff and what isn't"; context.

Next - and this will require some legwork on your part - an evil cleric channels negative energy. He is explicitly forbidden from channeling positive energy, just as a neutral cleric must make the choice at 1st level and cannot change it. Yet... you can find many, many statblocks Paizo has made with evil clerics who have prepared cure spells. Why? Because they're useful and the clerics CAN cast them. "But how?!? They're channeling positive energy?!?" Yeah, no. They're channeling positive energy, which is totally not the same thing as channeling positive energy.


Matt, I think you are looking at a part of the item's description and not all of it. The entire description can help set the context for how the item works.

In your OP, the quote is:

Matt McLane wrote:


So the Phylactery of Positive Channeling says:

This item allows channelers of positive energy to increase .....

I can see how you would read that as, roughly, "anyone that uses positive energy for anything." However, the item's full descriptive text is this:

d20pfsrd.com wrote:


This item allows channelers of positive energy to increase the amount of damage dealt to undead creatures by +2d6. This also increases the amount of damage healed by living creatures.

Now you have two sentences that combine together to provide context for what the item does. The Channel class ability looks like the logical choice to me, based on the wording of both sentences taken together. To me, it reads like it is affecting one ability, and Channel can harm undead and heal the living.

However, if I carry your interpretation out a little further it suggests that the item adds +2d6 to anything a person who channels positive energy can do. Which means that a channeler of positive energy using unarmed strike would receive the Phylactery's additional damage as well.

I don't think that was at all the intent of the item. That means there has to be a restriction somewhere on what the item affects. Restricting the item to the Channel class ability looks, to me, like the right choice.

Grand Lodge

Matt McLane wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Look, I'm not going to argue with your here.

I'm not very good at explaining things sometimes, and I guess this is one of those times.

The final answer is that it doesn't. Don't worry so much about why it doesn't, because it's not going to change that it doesn't enhance it.

In any event, my point about the dice was that it seems moreobvious that it was meant to enhance Channel Energy versus CLW.

There is actually no descriptive text in the description of the Phylactery of Positive Channeling.

Also, perhaps this will help. There is also a phylactery of negative energy. They both use a line like this:

Quote:
This item allows channelers of positive energy to increase the amount of damage dealt to undead creatures by +2d6
That line attempts to tell you who qualifies. Channlers of positive energy. Now, your interpretation means bards qualify to use the phylactery with their CLW spell because it descriptively says you use positive energy to heal. But it's not Channel Energy. Which is what the item is actually referring to.

I am not trying to have an argument either, I am looking for clarification and I just don't like the answer of "because it doesn't work that way". That is the only answer anyone has been able to give so far, I can't fine a why. Also, no one can point me to an official clarifying source. I think I have a completely valid point. Yes, I think bards should be able to use it to enhance their cure spells along with Oracles.

As I said, when you cast a cure spell you are channeling positive energy, the spell description says so. So.. you are a channeler of positive energy.. its that simple if you ask me.

So, does it also boost "Godless Healing"?

Witch or Bard Cure spells?

Would a Phylactery of Positive Channeling also increase the amount an Evil cleric does with his Cure spells?

Quote:
Regardless of alignment, any cleric can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol. This energy can be used to cause or heal damage, depending on the type of energy channeled and the creatures targeted.


RAuer2 wrote:


However, if I carry your interpretation out a little further it suggests that the item adds +2d6 to anything a person who channels positive energy can do. Which means that a channeler of positive energy using unarmed strike would receive the Phylactery's additional damage as well.

The item specifically says that it increases either the harm to undead or the healing done. So.. here is a related question, if I cast a cure spell on an undead, does it not hurt them?

I totally agree that this is a poorly worded magic item. I am very surprised that there isn't an errata on it or something.

Liberty's Edge

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This is the first time I have seen this come up, and this item is from the CRB. You don't attach mechanics to fluff text, period. It says it adds dice to channeling energy, with the positive item doing positive energy and the negative item doing negative energy. This applies to the channel energy class feature only. There is no ambiguity unless you start mixing fluff with rules.


I think Shar Tahl has it right. I do not think the item is unclear at all.

Liberty's Edge

As a point of reference, both items should be looked at to fully clear this up. They are identical, except they effect opposite spectrums of channel energy.

PHYLACTERY OF NEGATIVE CHANNELING:

Aura moderate necromancy [evil]; CL 10th
Slot headband; Price 11,000 gp; Weight —
DESCRIPTION

This item is a boon to any character able to channel negative energy, increasing the amount of damage dealt to living creatures by +2d6. This also increases the amount of damage healed by undead creatures.

CONSTRUCTION

Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be a 10th-level cleric; Cost 5,500 gp


PHYLACTERY OF POSITIVE CHANNELING:

Aura moderate necromancy [good]; CL 10th
Slot headband; Price 11,000 gp; Weight —
DESCRIPTION

This item allows channelers of positive energy to increase the amount of damage dealt to undead creatures by +2d6. This also increases the amount of damage healed by living creatures.

CONSTRUCTION

Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be a 10th-level cleric; Cost 5,500 gp

Channel Energy (Su)::
Regardless of alignment, any cleric can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol. This energy can be used to cause or heal damage, depending on the type of energy channeled and the creatures targeted.

A good cleric (or one who worships a good deity) channels positive energy and can choose to deal damage to undead creatures or to heal living creatures. An evil cleric (or one who worships an evil deity) channels negative energy and can choose to deal damage to living creatures or to heal undead creatures. A neutral cleric who worships a neutral deity (or one who is not devoted to a particular deity) must choose whether she channels positive or negative energy. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric casts spontaneous cure or inflict spells (see spontaneous casting).

Channeling energy causes a burst that affects all creatures of one type (either undead or living) in a 30-foot radius centered on the cleric. The amount of damage dealt or healed is equal to 1d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage for every two cleric levels beyond 1st (2d6 at 3rd, 3d6 at 5th, and so on). Creatures that take damage from channeled energy receive a Will save to halve the damage. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the cleric's level + the cleric's Charisma modifier. Creatures healed by channeled energy cannot exceed their maximum hit point total—all excess healing is lost. A cleric may channel energy a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. This is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A cleric can choose whether or not to include herself in this effect. A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability.

The very first line, "This item is a boon to any character able to channel negative/positive energy", tells you what this item effects. There is a second line that should not be viewed as its own separate content, "This also increases the amount of damage healed by living/undead creatures."

So in its entirety, we have:

This item is a boon to any character able to channel negative/positive energy{referencing a class feature}, increasing the amount of damage dealt to living/undead creatures by +2d6{How this class feature is going to be modified}. This also increases the amount of damage healed by undead/living creatures.{referencing the other use of the class feature, letting you know it wasn't exclusive to one side}


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I know and understand what they say and how they work.

But given how the spells are written and how the item is written I can totally 100% understand why a new person to the game would think it works.

It can super easily be avoided by going back to the item and changing

"to any character able to channel [whichever] energy" to
" to any character with the Channel [Whichever] Energy class ability" (or feature or whatever).

This separates it from the possible fluff from the cure/inflict lines with a very minimal amount of extra wordage.

A new person to the game should not have to have knowledge of old editions that some old publisher made of some other game in order to read the CRB.

-S

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Selgard wrote:

I know and understand what they say and how they work.

But given how the spells are written and how the item is written I can totally 100% understand why a new person to the game would think it works.

It can super easily be avoided by going back to the item and changing

"to any character able to channel [whichever] energy" to
" to any character with the Channel [Whichever] Energy class ability" (or feature or whatever).

This separates it from the possible fluff from the cure/inflict lines with a very minimal amount of extra wordage.

A new person to the game should not have to have knowledge of old editions that some old publisher made of some other game in order to read the CRB.

-S

I agree, the usage is clear to those of us who have been around long enough, but a strict reading leaves a neieve user with some ambiguity. An errata would not be amiss.


Sigh.

Acrobatics...
"If you fail this check by 4 or less, you can attempt a DC 20 Reflex save to grab hold of the other side after having missed the jump."

Sleight of Hand...
"The opponent makes a Perception check to detect the attempt, opposed by the Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item."

Let's see. If you jump somewhere and barely miss your check, there's this nice rule that lets you try and save yourself but... oh, so sorry, you have to have the GRAB monster ability, yeah?

Let's see. It would appear that using Sleight of Hand to steal something is implied to require a GRAB attempt, so again, unless you're a monster with GRAB, you can't steal stuff.

Or is it... everyone has GRAB because everyone can use these two skill function?

So confusing. Such a struggle.

Again, 3.0, 3.5, and PF don't entirely use a denoted keyword system. They just don't. Yes, it'd be nice if they did, but they don't. So you have to read a whole section to understand what is intended. It's not that hard. In this case, you've got a magic item that seems perfectly designed for clerics using their class ability, but you find some parallel wording that would let you munchkin out and get a bonus to every cure spell ever. Yeah, totally intended.


Selgard wrote:

I know and understand what they say and how they work.

But given how the spells are written and how the item is written I can totally 100% understand why a new person to the game would think it works.

It can super easily be avoided by going back to the item and changing

"to any character able to channel [whichever] energy" to
" to any character with the Channel [Whichever] Energy class ability" (or feature or whatever).

This separates it from the possible fluff from the cure/inflict lines with a very minimal amount of extra wordage.

A new person to the game should not have to have knowledge of old editions that some old publisher made of some other game in order to read the CRB.

-S

Yes, exactly.

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