To clarify, let's take a Ranger. In RAW it says about her Skill Ranks:
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int modifier.
Now, let's say I dump INT of the said Ranger during character creation to 7 (-2). So when I level up, do I get:
A) 6 Skill Ranks
B) 4 Skill Ranks
The above doesn't count Favored Class option for an extra rank.
EDIT: Fixed the amount of Skill Ranks.
7 is -2, not -4.
You get 4 skill ranks.
7 is -2, not -4.
You get 4 skill ranks.
Thanks!
|
Now what if the result of the negatives brought the skill ranks to 0? For example, a fighter gets 2 + Int mod but if he had an Int of 7 (-2) than would he receive 0 skill points or is there a minimum of 1? I've had GMs (myself included) rule that the minimum is 1 but it would be nice to know what the rule is supposed to be. What if said fighter was human and thus received an additional point per level? Straight math would put him at 1 rank per level, however this is the same as a fighter who is not human under the above house rule. Alternatively does that human fighter perhaps receive 2 per level because of the above mentioned ruling? Is this, perhaps never specified clearly and is up to the respective GM?
Minimum of one per level, I believe.
You get at least one skill rank, and the human bonus has nothing to do with intelligence so being a human gets you at least 2. The favored class point also gets you another one if you use it for that for a minimum of 3.
I would assume you get the base amount of skill points without loosing any. The class gets a set amount of skill ranks. I would guess that the Int modifier can increase it but not decrease it, otherwise some really weird things would start happening.
I would assume you get the base amount of skill points without loosing any. The class gets a set amount of skill ranks. I would guess that the Int modifier can increase it but not decrease it, otherwise some really weird things would start happening.
This is the very thing I'm wondering.
With all that's been said above, why would any Fighter etc take anything but INT 7?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The correct number of skills is the class + INT modifier, but with a minimum of one. Basic rules of mat still apply so adding a negative number still means subtracting that number. After this is done you add racial and favored class bonuses. This does mean the minimum for a dumb human fighter is 2 (3 with favored class).
The reason not to dump INT for all fighters is that skill ranks are only one thing you get from INT. Some feats require a minimum INT of 13 so if you want any of these feats you do not dump. Also your INT modifier also applies to INT based skills most of which are not class skills for a fighter. As a GM if a player wants to dump a stat I don’t have a problem with that, but I will enforce the penalties.
A character with a 7 INT is going to be ripped off a lot when he goes to purchase items. It takes a DC 20 appraise check to identify the value of a common item. Knowledge’s are also INT based skills and they can only be used trained unless the DC is 10 or lower. For the most part I do not require characters to roll for most of these things, but with a character with a bought down INT I do. So the rogue with a normal INT will pretty much recognize the current symbol of the king, but the 7 INT fighter needs to roll a 12. For the most part if a character has a positive or at least 0 bonus I assume a 10 for unimportant tasks to speed up the game. If the character has a negative modifier I will often roll to see if they succeed. This goes for any dumped stat not just INT.
They like being useful outside combat, also.
My campaign has a 14 int fighter who is very happy with his ability to climb, intimidate, know things about engineering, handle animals, and a smattering of other things that wouldn't be possible with 7 int.
'optimally' every fighter might take 7 int, or 5 if they have a racial penalty, but not everyone is going to min-max that hard.
The correct number of skills is the class + INT modifier, but with a minimum of one. Basic rules of mat still apply so adding a negative number still means subtracting that number. After this is done you add racial and favored class bonuses. This does mean the minimum for a dumb human fighter is 2 (3 with favored class).
The reason not to dump INT for all fighters is that skill ranks are only one thing you get from INT. Some feats require a minimum INT of 13 so if you want any of these feats you do not dump. Also your INT modifier also applies to INT based skills most of which are not class skills for a fighter. As a GM if a player wants to dump a stat I don’t have a problem with that, but I will enforce the penalties.
A character with a 7 INT is going to be ripped off a lot when he goes to purchase items. It takes a DC 20 appraise check to identify the value of a common item. Knowledge’s are also INT based skills and they can only be used trained unless the DC is 10 or lower. For the most part I do not require characters to roll for most of these things, but with a character with a bought down INT I do. So the rogue with a normal INT will pretty much recognize the current symbol of the king, but the 7 INT fighter needs to roll a 12. For the most part if a character has a positive or at least 0 bonus I assume a 10 for unimportant tasks to speed up the game. If the character has a negative modifier I will often roll to see if they succeed. This goes for any dumped stat not just INT.
Really and do you roll behind tbe scenes for tge str 7 wizard to pick things up? The dc 20 appraise thing the vast majority of pc will fail and assumes every merchant is trying to rip him off. I have no issue with enfrcing stats but creating all this stuff to punish the player is wrong then somehow assuming the 10 int ighter can realistically make that skill check?
Really the answer is i dont make 7 int fighters because i dont want to pkay lenny from of mice and men. This is a roleplaying game.
No, the str 7 wizard would have to be careful how much stuff he packs and carries around.
A PC with atleast 10 int can take 20 on the appraise roll, spending some time haggling with the merchant to ensure a fair price. The one with less will be ripped off.
But yeah, mechanically there isn't much difference between int 7 and 9 for a fighter.
For the 7 STR wizards I track encumbrance, and yes I do tell them when things are too heavy to pick up. My point on the Appraise check is that the character with a bought down INT is incapable of making the roll unless he puts skill point into it. I don’t do this every time but enough to remind the character they are did dump a stat. If you dump multiple stats it will get worse.
If a players is role playing his dump stat I don’t have to do anything. I had a character that was running a monk with a 7 CHA who played it perfectly. He was arrogant and rude to everyone around him. He actually put a lot of thought into coming up with ways to sound offensive. The first game he went into a bar and almost managed to start a riot by making racist remarks to the humans in the bar. They were looking for information so I had him roll a diplomacy roll, and he rolled a 2.
I would assume you get the base amount of skill points without loosing any. The class gets a set amount of skill ranks. I would guess that the Int modifier can increase it but not decrease it, otherwise some really weird things would start happening.This is the very thing I'm wondering.
With all that's been said above, why would any Fighter etc take anything but INT 7?
There's this thing called "roleplaying". Not everyone wants to play Forrest Gumps dumber brother.
INT 7 Fighter was pure provocation from my part. Just wanted to see what happens if I suggest something like this. Sorry for any hurt feelings.
I'm not a fan of dumping either. There's something very wrong for me to dump any stat. I could go with 8 DEX maybe. But INT 7? No way. Because yes, it limits the roleplaying options quite a bit.
If a players is role playing his dump stat I don’t have to do anything. I had a character that was running a monk with a 7 CHA who played it perfectly. He was arrogant and rude to everyone around him. He actually put a lot of thought into coming up with ways to sound offensive. The first game he went into a bar and almost managed to start a riot by making racist remarks to the humans in the bar. They were looking for information so I had him roll a diplomacy roll, and he rolled a 2.
This. In our Halloween game there was a Cleric of Erastil, who sucked at everything else than fighting. But the player roleplayed the character perfectly. When the Cleric died and he had to switch over to a Bard the change was instant and tremendous. Good times.
Personally, I don't think that I could play this kind of character. Too many limitations.
You people do realize that an 8 Int represents average intelligence, right? So someone with a 7 Int is not that much below average.
Average in compared to what? Adventurers are supposed to be a cut above the normal. They are the people who solve the problems that others can’t. And while having a 7 INT is not going to make that much of a difference to a farmer or baker it will make a difference to an adventurer. Like I said if you are going to dump a stat be prepared to live with the consequences. If you dump INT you will have trouble understanding things. If you dump WIS be prepared to get taken advantage of. If you dump CHA be prepared for people to react negatively to you. If you dump STR watch what you carry. If you dump DEX you will be clumsy. If you dump CON well be prepared to die.
Now 7 is not really that low but it still gives a penalty. The reason you get extra points in a point buy is because you are going to have problems with a stat bellow 10. I am not saying that if you have a 7 INT you are too stupid to live, but you are less intelligent than a normal adventurer and should be treated so. This is not a bad thing, and can be a great roleplaying opportunity, but do not expect to ignore it. The same goes for any dump stat.
Oh it IS a great roleplaying opportunity. Until some GM tries to force you into a little box of playing stupidly. That -2 can mean so SO many different things, the possibilities are vast. Far better to encourage player creativity and role play by letting THEM define the -2 rather than force them into the GMs little punishment box; which can only end badly.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Really and do you roll behind tbe scenes for the str 7 wizard to pick things up?If they have to make a strength check then yes, they roll. There are also very clear encumbrance rules and rules on maximum lifting weights based on strength score and yes, I enforce them.
I think my point was totally missed. He basically said the cost of everything would go up for the 7 int fighter and that he would be doing lots of behind the scenes rolls. He sited a DC 20 appraise check as justification for this ignoring the fact that the vast majority of the population only makes that check 1 in 20 times. It looked like alot of arbitrary rules to justify the DM being angry with the Decision to have a 7 int. Rolls most other NPC cant make but apparenly are not subject to.
Dong get me wrong, id never personally ever make a 7 int fighter because i want my characters to be able to do things like ask intelligent questions ore try and solve the mysteries in a game or well do anything other than hit things.
I just dont think creating alot of on the spot behind the scenes rules is how one deals with a 7 int character
Actually 1/6 of any race can have an 8 and if they have racial penalties it drops to a 6. Dwarves are an example, and elves are another with respect to constitution, so I don't know why 7's get look at so hard, and YES that is with the heroic NPC stat array, not the one for normal people.
You people do realize that an 8 Int represents average intelligence, right? So someone with a 7 Int is not that much below average.
Not in Golarion. In Golarion the stats for 90%* of NPCs are 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. That makes the average about 11. No standard human NPC* has a int lower than 8. And even with rolling 3d6 (which isn't used for NPCs and rarely for PC's the average is about 10 or so)
And altho a racial modifier can bring that 8 down to 6, no core race has a - to int. The core races make up more than 90%.
* the other 9.999% have 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Average is about 14 there.
* there's one special NPC "the village idiot" who is lower. May be another somewhere. Those specials make up the other .0001% then there's the PC's. Man, wouldn't it be weird to- as a great hero- have an int that's so low you're one in a million?
Actually 1/6 of any race can have an 8 and if they have racial penalties it drops to a 6. Dwarves are an example, and elves are another with respect to constitution, so I don't know why 7's get look at so hard, and YES that is with the heroic NPC stat array, not the one for normal people.
Except no core race has a minus to Int, and not every member of a race with a minus will have their lowest stat in their minus stat.
Oh it IS a great roleplaying opportunity. Until some GM tries to force you into a little box of playing stupidly. That -2 can mean so SO many different things, the possibilities are vast. Far better to encourage player creativity and role play by letting THEM define the -2 rather than force them into the GMs little punishment box; which can only end badly.
I guess it's fine for a str 5 wizard to be able to perform amazing feats of strength, because that's the way I'd want to "define" it, eh?
Really and do you roll behind tbe scenes for the str 7 wizard to pick things up?If they have to make a strength check then yes, they roll. There are also very clear encumbrance rules and rules on maximum lifting weights based on strength score and yes, I enforce them.I think my point was totally missed. He basically said the cost of everything would go up for the 7 int fighter and that he would be doing lots of behind the scenes rolls. He sited a DC 20 appraise check as justification for this ignoring the fact that the vast majority of the population only makes that check 1 in 20 times. It looked like alot of arbitrary rules to justify the DM being angry with the Decision to have a 7 int. Rolls most other NPC cant make but apparenly are not subject to.
Dong get me wrong, id never personally ever make a 7 int fighter because i want my characters to be able to do things like ask intelligent questions ore try and solve the mysteries in a game or well do anything other than hit things.
I just dont think creating alot of on the spot behind the scenes rules is how one deals with a 7 int character
A 7 INT is not so low that you will be the target for everything, but it does mean that you will fall for scams more often than a character with a 10 INT. What I look at is the person with the penalty able to make the roll at all. If not then that character will have a few more problems when dealing the situations covered by the skill. In the case of INT the character is going to paying a little more for items once in a while, they will also have trouble reading, and not recognize some things more often than someone with a 10 INT.
I don’t have a set of complicated rules, nor do I make rolls for every situation. What I do is to make sure the character actually is affected by the lower stat. Most of the time this is just a minor incident that does not affect anything important. For example I had one player with a low INT fooled by some fake gems. He was gambling in a tavern so when he won he did not get as much as he thought he did because the person he beat used fake gems. This ended up worth about 10 GP or so, but the character was pissed off when he found out. Note that I said the character the player was fine with this. This usually comes up once or maybe twice in a game session, and only when there is a lot of down time things going on.
I also do not pull any punches on rolls that do affect the game for characters that dump stats. If you dump your WIS and fail the sense motive roll that is not my problem. But here I am not calling for any rolls that the other players do not have to make.