Goblin Squad Member
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To be perfectly honest a game mechanic that allowed you to merely "imprison" a character for a few days of game play would be much more inconvenient to the player than resurrecting at a shrine.
A more interesting argument about "Good" law enforcement for me is should the loot drooped in the offenders husk be confiscated as part of the punishment or left for the offender to collect and go on his way.
Yes, I can tell you must be a great lawyer. Is your favorite rebuttal during cross-examination, "Liar liar pants on fire!"I think many a true Ranger would take offense to your supposition that you "own" the trees and the rocks and the essences of the world.LMAO
That's a Druid you are describing there, Mr. Know-it-all.
??? And I can tell you had no idea how to come up with a good comeback to my burn. You should take some lessons from Gol Tink. He's got it going on. You... not so much.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Without that, I see continued calls of "look at the evil EBA" as just refusing to engage in constructive conversation.You have chosen to label yourselves as Lawful Good, the onus is on you and your players to live up to it. Shirking that responsibility because it is difficult, while hiding behind the veil of provocative discussions is really just a disservice to serious role players.
Who are you talking to?
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Goblin Squad Member
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You're funny. Misinformed, but funny.No, what is funny is reading from you guys how you want to be one thing, and yet say you are another thing. It's a marvelous circle of hilarity.
At present, holdings, escalation rewards, and resource nodes are limited resources. Character lives are fully, immediately, renewableYou even have your non-violent diplomat essentially saying that life is cheap, so yeah killing players is fine.
It seems you really want to play as Lawful evil, but for some reason won't come out and admit it.
No, we say killing is the last resort. Check you facts there. I'm non-aggressive, but neither am I a pacifist or some sheep that will let folks walk all over me and my allies. You want to see the difference, in the context of this game, between Good and Evil territorial control than compare our proposal here to what folks find when traveling through a Golgotha PvP hex or mining in their territory. Golgotha plays their role very well. This is the best we've found to be able to play ours. Still waiting for that reasonable, valuable contribution to the conversation.
So, your answer is "Yes, i refuse to engage in a meaningful conversation." then? You argument basically says we, as Good, must allow anyone to enter any hex, strip mine it to dust, and walk away unharmed. Give me a reasonable, Good response to that. Or admit to having nothing to add to the conversation.I've been having a splendid and meaningful discussion here. The fact that you reach the above conclusion and line of thought makes me doubt your diplomatic chops. It's almost adversarial. Have you actually been in a real negotiation before?
I'm laying out clear concepts for what it means to be Lawful Good. They aren't my own inventions.
If you cannot describe a way to fit within the bounds of those rules, which are well known to anybody who actually roleplays, then that is your problem. Trying to shuffle the responsibility of showing cause to me is a rather amateur tactic.
I don't bother with diplomacy on someone who is proving himself disinterested in actual, meaningful conversation. Why would I do so? I reserve diplomacy for Phyllain, Bluddwolf, Atheory, and others that actually engage in meaningful conversation framed by our environment. You cannot contribute to the conversation by pulling from resource not available to us.
We've come down to RP credentials, always good times...let's see, playing for 30 years, published several modules trough the RPGA. You?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm going to echo the "last resort" portion. There are lots of channels prior to that. Such as the warning and opening up a communication for permissions (if all you need is a little bit - that's different than strip-mining). You can establish trade, or some agreement that is mutually agreeable. This all happens before someone is run off or killed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Still waiting for that reasonable, valuable contribution to the conversation.Value is in the eye of the beholder. My wit may come wanting for some, but I think it is valuable for anybody interested in actually roleplaying in this game that people adhere to the tenets of alignments, so people don't just say they are one thing when they clearly are doing the other.
Don't become exasperated friend. I know you wish to roleplay as a diplomat, but I fear your endurance is waning.
Not at all, this isn't even a minor skirmish on the diplomatic front. i don't see any diplomatic ground I've lost, and you've made no meaningful contribution to the discussion. You failing to function within the constraints of the game we have doesn't exactly lend any strength to your points.
It's just going to be so funny when the backlash/pushback occurs.
Golgotha already finds ourselves making mistakes from being trigger-happy.
The ganking of the harmless random guy in blue near Iron Gauntlet shows that the "good" guys are just as excitable at times, so hilarity over the "good" guys' territory enforcement is practically ensured.
I predict a popcorn shortage by Tuesday.
as an aside, did anyone else notice the pace of new posts shot up when we transitioned to alignment discussion? A true sign of TT fandom.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm just stating a set of truths.
Claiming EBA is LG is not one of them...we have tried to make that clear several times.
I don't need to provide you with examples on how to play Lawful Good. You need to demonstrate that you are able to play as Lawful Good because you want to play as Lawful Good. If you cannot do so then you are not Lawful Good.
Hence, the rest of this does not follow.
I trust is is not a purposeful racial slur. Either way, I am offended.I think you will find that that is Pocohontas that he is describing.
I think he's saying (and if so I agree) that the civilization that managed to share the land and described "property lines" as an invisible spiderweb were the morally good people.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think he's saying (and if so I agree) that the civilization that managed to share the land and described "property lines" as an invisible spiderweb were the morally good people.I trust is is not a purposeful racial slur. Either way, I am offended.I think you will find that that is Pocohontas that he is describing.
I think I was pointing out that the Disney Princess said that people can't own the land?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Al, I'll make you an offer. You have portrayed yourself as a master of roleplaying with regard to alignment. I suppose you may be reluctant to offer us advice as we are a enemy to you. I, however, am willing to place myself under your RP authority. If you can provide any wy for us to better implement our policy in compliance with your definition of Good within PFO, I will champion your advice to be implemented throughout the EBA. Indeed, I'll extend this offer to anyone that can better portray our Good alignment in game-allowable actions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't bother with diplomacy on someone who is proving himself disinterested in actual, meaningful conversation. Why would I do so? I reserve diplomacy for Phyllain, Bluddwolf, Atheory, and others that actually engage in meaningful conversation framed by our environment. You cannot contribute to the conversation by pulling from resource not available to us.You keep using that word meaningful, as a way to undercut the gravity of my words as a way to making them seem "meaningless". I'm just stating a set of truths. I don't need to provide you with examples on how to play Lawful Good. You need to demonstrate that you are able to play as Lawful Good because you want to play as Lawful Good. If you cannot do so then you are not Lawful Good.
There is no definitive Lawful Good. What it originally meant when coined by Gygax (who I actually met once, he was dressed as Elminster) is different to how 3.0/3.5 wizards/hasbro use the term and it is different again in 4th ED (which adopted an American Hollywood simplistic Manichean/Gnostic approach) and is different again in pathfinder.
I actually worked as a research assistant when younger for someone researching the Manichean Heresy and Gnostic cosmologies in general and the amount of gnostic thought on good/evil that has snuck into modern thinking is surprising.
It absolutely and definitely will be different again in PFO.
Adopting a fundamentalist approach to alignments and quoting canonical texts is no more valid here than in real world religious discussion.
I think I was pointing out that the Disney Princess said that people can't own the land?I think he's saying (and if so I agree) that the civilization that managed to share the land and described "property lines" as an invisible spiderweb were the morally good people.I trust is is not a purposeful racial slur. Either way, I am offended.I think you will find that that is Pocohontas that he is describing.
Surely, you can't expect good people to be inconvenienced, by walking further for resources, can you?
Expediency, my dear fellow... it is what makes the real world what it is.
Expediency will convert this virtual world to evil, too. Just watch.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you kill another player for harvesting "your" nodes, and it is a non-PvP hex. You will get flagged as an attacker/aggressor. You will lose reputation.
That is clearly in game terms, a crime.
How is that Lawful Good?
I prefer to look at it a different way, Reputation is a diachronic aggregate representing your behaviour. Any value over x shows one to be a "non-aggressive player", any value under y shows one to be an "aggressive player"
Any single incident of lowering is irrelevant to the representation of behaviour over time. The values of x and y are dependent upon the community making the judgement.
Alignment is and should be mostly independent of Reputation (although there will probably be some correlations).
EDIT: I also expect as the game develops, Reputation might be tied to more than PvP aggression, but for now it is not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Al, I'll make you an offer. You have portrayed yourself as a master of roleplaying with regard to alignment. I suppose you may be reluctant to offer us advice as we are a enemy to you.I am nobody's enemy I haven't played since about the second week of early enrollment.
provide any wy for us to better implement our policy in compliance with your definition of Good within PFO, I will champion your advice to be implemented throughout the EBA. I'll extend this offer to anyone that can better portray our Good alignment in game-allowable actions.That is very wise. That is the Erian I like. Glad to see you back.
Best of luck.
...he says, not actually taking Erian up on the offer.
Something something hot gas.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In the real world, the first man to erect a fence and claim all this is mine and none shall pass... that man was egregiously evil and the world would be a better place if he had been laughed out of civilization, rather than copied.
In my mind, that first fence was built in response to blood, sweat, and tears being spent bringing forth sustenance from the earth only to watch others take what they wanted and trample the rest.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In the real world, the first man to erect a fence and claim all this is mine and none shall pass... that man was egregiously evil and the world would be a better place if he had been laughed out of civilization, rather than copied.In my mind, that first fence was built in response to blood, sweat, and tears being spent bringing forth sustenance from the earth only to watch others take what they wanted and trample the rest.
Our local indigenous cultures belief is that there is no such thing as ownership only things you have a responsibility to look after.
Needless to say that is rather at odds with modern western societies idea that ownership = posession = the right to exclude others (legally known as seisin) and even destroy the thing if you wish.
You haven't met my friend Mr. Rope. Keeps all the goats in the yard (and they're like, it's better than yours).
*gnawing on the rope* Huh? Oh, is that was this was for? I thought it was just a new way to keep me from bolting my hay. Oh well. *keeps gnawing*
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Goblin Squad Member
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Claiming EBA is LG is not one of them...we have tried to make that clear several times.On the political map, nearly every EBA settlement has Good in it's description. So, the "Good" descriptor is at the very least the primary alignment in question.
You're correct. They do have the Good descriptor, but all their settlements also have the Neutral descriptor. They are ambivalent to the Lawful and Chaotic alignments.
I would characterize the alliance's actions as Neutral, where Chaos and Law are concerned. They are concerned about legality/order on larger issues (ie. border disputes, WoT NAP). However, they handle day-to-day issues (ie. trade, escalation management) on an individual basis. In this sense, they anarchic/chaotic in the international relations sense. There is no EBA government. All of this fits the actions of the Neutral alignment (at least in the geo-political sense).
Now if you're looking for 100% Lawful Good, there is a nice settlement up north called Ozem's Vigil.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be honest the fact that you are in a game where you continually kill things including human NPCs all the time and it is not evil until you kill a character played by a human rather than a computer is a bit illogical.
Killing a computer controlled bandit who lorewise does not resurrect is not evil. Killing a player controlled bandit who does resurrect is evil.
There is a lack of logic here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be honest the fact that you are in a game where you continually kill things including human NPCs all the time and it is not evil until you kill a character played by a human rather than a computer is a bit illogical.
Killing a computer controlled bandit who lorewise does not resurrect is not evil. Killing a player controlled bandit who does resurrect is evil.
There is a lack of logic here.
Agreed, sorry. I know it is an unpopular position, but I have always been of the opinion that the game should strive for no mechanical differences between PCs and NPCs.
In the real world, the first man to erect a fence and claim all this is mine and none shall pass... that man was egregiously evil and the world would be a better place if he had been laughed out of civilization, rather than copied.In my mind, that first fence was built in response to blood, sweat, and tears being spent bringing forth sustenance from the earth only to watch others take what they wanted and trample the rest.
I'll reserve the label "good" for the folks who'd bring food to starving pilgrims, rather than the guy who'd fence people out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'll reserve the label "good" for the folks who'd bring food to starving pilgrims, rather than the guy who'd fence people out.In the real world, the first man to erect a fence and claim all this is mine and none shall pass... that man was egregiously evil and the world would be a better place if he had been laughed out of civilization, rather than copied.In my mind, that first fence was built in response to blood, sweat, and tears being spent bringing forth sustenance from the earth only to watch others take what they wanted and trample the rest.
What if you sell it to them at a reduced profit ?
In the real world, the first man to erect a fence and claim all this is mine and none shall pass... that man was egregiously evil and the world would be a better place if he had been laughed out of civilization, rather than copied.In my mind, that first fence was built in response to blood, sweat, and tears being spent bringing forth sustenance from the earth only to watch others take what they wanted and trample the rest.
Fences are an expedient solution to the inconvenience that other humans can pose.
Expediency is what makes this real world evil and it is what will make our virtual world evil, too.
What's the difference if the fence is realized in a way that only keeps out the people who would take away the food the people do have?
I'll reserve the label "good" for the folks who'd bring food to starving pilgrims, rather than the guy who'd fence people out.
Come one, come all... Eat all you like, but no take-out? ;-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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In the real world, the first man to erect a fence and claim all this is mine and none shall pass... that man was egregiously evil and the world would be a better place if he had been laughed out of civilization, rather than copied.In my mind, that first fence was built in response to blood, sweat, and tears being spent bringing forth sustenance from the earth only to watch others take what they wanted and trample the rest.That is an expedient solution to the inconvenience that other humans can pose.
Expediency is what makes this real world evil and it is what will make our virtual world evil, too.
I thought expediency in game would be more meta-gaming things like "corner alignments are harder for settlements as they limit them - but are actually easier alignments for individual players to maintain".
I thought expediency in game would be more meta-gaming things like "corner alignments are harder for settlements as they limit them - but are actually easier alignments for individual players to maintain".In the real world, the first man to erect a fence and claim all this is mine and none shall pass... that man was egregiously evil and the world would be a better place if he had been laughed out of civilization, rather than copied.In my mind, that first fence was built in response to blood, sweat, and tears being spent bringing forth sustenance from the earth only to watch others take what they wanted and trample the rest.That is an expedient solution to the inconvenience that other humans can pose.
Expediency is what makes this real world evil and it is what will make our virtual world evil, too.
I (apparently) haven't read enough to understand the concept in quotes.